My thoughts....
 

Just curious.......what would be the approved of method for those people who do fit best into what's being describe as the "june cleaver".....role, for lack of a better word.

I ask because this comes up over and over and the arguments are always the same and they always go round and round.

I understand that there is a very clear line when speaking about what works for you as an individual. Do so in your "me" voice and don't step on the backs of others to explain why your way works. That should be obvious enough to any grown person who has interacted with other grown people on a regular basis. I understand that when that, very clear line, is stepped over, it's gonna be brought up, as it should.

Where I get hung up about this, especially on this topic is why then, when we are reminded that our way doesn't work for everyone and we need to be more aware of words, thoughts and actions, do we then go into a history lesson of all the ills perpertrated on others during that era?


And please hear this....I am NOT dismissing the ignorant/non-tolerant/dumbass ways in which most rich white men acted back then.

What I am asking is, can we come up with a way to discuss the needs of some, without having to go into a history lesson and describe all the ways that feeling comfortable as 'june cleaver' is so antiquated, old fashioned....blahblahblah.

I fit this category. It's the me that fires my soul. And I am not old fashioned, weak or antiquated in my thinking. So there must be some way to be okay with both trains of thought. Or at least I would hope, as adults we could figure out a way to be tolerant of everyone that is not me.


Just really wishing for tolerance across the board. Probably another of my many pollyana moments but, such is life.


Take Care,
julie


P.S. What I love about most FTM's is the strength that seems to acrue during the transition. It's a strong person that can spit in the eye of "normal" to become their normal. Makes me all squishy inside.

Because people are romanticizing an era- that's why. They are not just saying oh we want to stand in the kitchen with an apron on.

People want to fantasize "the good old days" but still have all the modern benefits that people have fought for- Civil Rights, Womens Rights, Trans Rights etc and then complain about how things aren't as good now as "the good old days."

LOL!! It would have been ok if it was in response to my post. :-)

Basically, I'm asking the same thing you are. How can we talk about this 'june cleaver' way of living, without going back in history.

I know I call it the good old days, but that's cause I don't know any other concise way to describe what works for me. And normally only with people who are heterosexual. There has GOT to be a way that won't twist everybodys nose outta whack. You know??


julie

Clarification
 

Julie, the problem isn't stating one's (general) preferences, the issues that arise each and every time is when someone talks about their preferences and then in the same sentence is dismissive to others who aren't.


I'm a queer Leather Femme I can discuss my many likes, wants, desires, needs without having to talk about others that aren't or even mention them.

Some may be, some I know for sure aren't.

How do I talk about what works for us (my other half and I) without upsetting the apple cart.

Serious question. Not trying to cause a snark fest.


And one more thing, there is nothing wrong with wishing there was a little more common decency in this world.


julie

In my mind the 50s did not have more common decency. In my mind there was much less. One glaring example- Black Southerners had to sit in the back of the bus. That's not decent.

That's exactly what I said in my first post.

I say it for both sides of this coin.

And not just this issue. You, general you, should be able to express an opinion without shitting all over someone elses choices/needs/wants/must haves. It SHOULD be a very simple thing. Or at least I think it should be.


j

Where is the gap?
 

Oh my god! Really, you think that's what I'm talking about?


I'm not going to get sucked into a discussions of the idiot thoughts, ideas and action that happened "back then" And am not questioning whether they happened.


Would a better example be....people from a small town?? No, cause then I'm dismissing or um...insinuating that city people are rude, crude and socially undesierable.


This is my point. Common decency, when talking about behavior, is not a political thing to me. It's, holy crap, don't let your kids run all over the store yanking all the darn clothes of the racks onto the floor. It's, oh my god, don't run me over trying to get the last stone cold creamer. And maybe....em....let me out into the road if there is a red light and you're waiting for it anyways. The small things.

Not the big stupid political and social ills of the past. The little stuff. That's my common decency.

How can I talk about the things that work for me in my life and my relationship without having someone remind me of the evils of society, WHICH I AM NOT DISMISSING, especially in the era people seem hell bent on smearing on my idea of normal for me.


j

... X
 

It is pretty simple, at least you would think it was. Unfortunately people don't stick to their me place and diss those that aren't like them.

True story read back

Let me scoff
 

Keep in mind that I usually engage in power exchange relationships, as a submissive, on a 24/7 basis.

I think that doing 50's household outside of a fetish setting IS reenacting patriarchal ideologies and power structures. Sure it's a choice that anyone can make, and I truly do not care what other consenting adults do. But do not tell me that you -- generic 50'shouseholder you (not any particular poster) -- are realizing some better, nobler way of life. Do not describe it as a return to better values. It's your fetish, your thing, what makes you hot. Call it that.

We have had a couple on this very site -- banned now, I believe -- claim that this arrangement was the healthiest way to live and raise children. They really meant that. They wrote it. On a feminist site.

If you want to recreate the gender power dynamics in a way that you imagine were current in the 1950's, by all means do it. Have a great time. But do not say you are in any way modeling a more mannerly or civilized way of life. You may be a mannerly and civilized person. But you are not realizing a social construct that ANYONE except similar fetishists should adopt.

The fact is that 50's household, by definition, gives power to the male ID'd person, not the person of whatever gender who is inherently more powerful. That's what you are enacting. It happens to be a fit for you as a couple. It HAPPENS to be. It is not a good model for most people. Pretending it is morally righteous in anyway recapitulates patriarchal ideology.

So... ummm... back to what attracts you to FTMs... LOL

Ya know know they had some pretty cool cars in the 1950's. And didn't cheeseburgers look so much better back then? French fries did too come to think of it. Just sayin

You know what Julie the white washing of history bothers me greatly and I will speak up about it.

People can have whatever types of relationships they want, but when they start talking about certain people having superior manners and how people treated each other so much better back then I do have something to say.

Intolerance of views works both ways.

I agree. Anything done that is not your choice is stupid and quite frankly dangerous. Everyone should do as they feel they should do as long as it doesn't infringe on others. And why should we feel we have the right to care??? If it is a personal choice and consensual and nobody has to smack others around (figurativly) to feel ok about it...then have at it.

Like I tried to ask in my first post....how then, can we talk about it.

Obviously we are lacking understanding in the language needed to discuss this particular "kink". And i don't think it's a kink but I don't know what else to call it. Maybe preference??? Is that a better word? How do we discuss this without causing a big hoorah.

What words? Like specific words can I use to describe what works for Brute and I without bringing up disgusting parts of our history. Cause it's not a perfect world I strive for, it's a realistic world. But I need to know how to talk about it with giving offense to others.


j

I get that, for real I do.

That's why I said that when the, very clear line is crossed it should and must be addressed. I mean that truely.

I just would like to know words to use that will not offend others when talking about what works for us. You know me and the three year old beast :vigil:

Thinking out loud
 

I'm going to guess if you're talking about what attracts you to Brutus then you're going to speak from your desires, it's not going to be a cookie cutter descriptor of what rocks your boat. I don't assume you guys (you and the Brutal One) are cookie cutter considering how original Aj is.

:)
 

Oh gemme ,
Out of this entire thread your post right here is my favorite post . Perfectly said !!!!!!!