Personally all the female-identified, woman-identified, etc jargon does not at all reflect ME. No offense intended to those who find personal meaning in those terms.

I have yet to hear one single butch ever say they are engaged in some sort of war.

I don't identify as a woman- I AM a woman. I live my life as a woman, as a masculine woman, as a Butch. It's not something I "identify with." I live it.

This community is really interesting because it bridges some real gaps in society. Each of us has had real-world lived experiences that vary greatly from the cisgender hetero "norm." *In some cases, those experiences vary even more greatly from those of others' in our community. *

On each of our individual paths, we have learned things of value at least to ourselves and hopefully, if shared, to others as well. *I think there are issues with "hearing" each other over the noise, walls and distances created by our own experiences, knowledge, education, age/generation, affinities, alliances, communities, values, etc. *

Complicating these divisions is the fact that many people when defining their own identity have incorporated into that identity a devaluation of the things they are not. *I think this is part of the trap of living as an "other" - not only is there a tendency to self-oppress, but there is a tendency to oppress other "others" in an attempt to feel validated.

I think exposure to this community does a great job of helping people reconstruct/clarify their identities in ways that do not subconsciously negate the identities of others. *When I run into people in the real world who do not participate in this sort of online interaction or have significant community exposure, there is a big difference in the level of critical thinking that goes on regarding gender, identity, sexuality and community. *Even when it's frustrating, the conversations here and in communities like this are ultimately productive and meaningful.

I have seen over time people of many different orientations and gender identities feel negated, invisibilized, put down, disrespected, unaccepted and unheard. I have felt all of those things myself as I have struggled with my own gender identity and really questioned whether I have a place here at all. *("here" = not "here" at this site, but within the online community which comprised many of the same people as this site currently comprises). *When I came out of the closet, I thought that was going to be my biggest, most freeing moment. *I came running into the arms of a community that I somehow imagined was a sort of wonderland of acceptance. *It's not. *

When I "came out" about feeling like a guy on the inside, well. *It was messy. *I was in a bad place. *I was in a sort of crisis with my gender. *Where I felt like coming out would mean finally being accepted and possibly loved for who I was, I realized at that point - the only person likely to accept me entirely for who I am - is gonna be me. *The only person capable of respecting where I'm coming from without trying to negate it - is gonna be me. *What made that more true was the fact that in an attempt to express what was going on with me, I assumed that other people's reactions, interpretations, world views, opinions, levels of discomfort were intentionally negating, invisiblizing, cruel and "wrong." I didn't feel accepted or respected, and I was neither accepting nor respectful of those who didn't "hear" me. *I felt judged - I judged. *As they say, "Two wrongs don't make a right."

Then there have been other times - many many other times, when the shoe has been on the other foot. *I have been the one unable to hear, understand others within this community. *Sometimes it's because I personally feel discounted, but often it's just that there are so many gaps we are trying to cross at once - just in order to communicate about some of these issues. *I have learned over time that when I can't hear clearly and if the person or people I'm trying to "hear" are obviously not intending to be malicious, that it's worth keeping my ears open and gleaning what I can. *There are so many reasons we have gaps/noise/walls that keep us from hearing each other clearly - it may take many years to hear each other better.

I think goodwill and a willingness to listen and accept where people are coming from are really essential to the vitality of a community like ours. We are not always going to *get* each other, and I think that's a truth which doesn't necessarily have to tear us apart or lead to deep wounds or feelings of exclusion.

All this to say, my own limitations with this topic are most likely multiple. *I am a feminist who has often felt bullied by feminism. *I see Cynthia Nixon being held up as an example of something atrociously unfeminist and my first reaction is to defend her. *Feminism is great, but to me it feels like this steamroller at times and I personally just really struggle with the way in which it seems to negate the individual lived experience. *So I get stuck right there. *And I can't hear Heart. *I can't hear exactly what she's saying though I know what's sticking in my craw is not even what she's trying to say.

I know from experience that it's worth continuing to listen as long as she's willing to persist, because Heart will at times say things that are revelatory (to me) and worth the struggle it takes to bridge the gaps. *But there's a lot of personal noise for me on this topic and I know it's affecting my ability to "hear" clearly.

there was a time that, though i still asked prior, i defaulted to 'he' and it was during this time (about 6 years ago) that female butches were becoming increasingly marginalized... (and this doesn't mean that i am apologizing in any way in my 'role' in 'marginalizing' because that's not where i'm going with this. --whole different thread.)

does anyone besides me sense the subversiveness (which i love, truth be told) in claiming/re-claiming the butch in female whether it be in identity and/or presentation?

just throwing this question out there, it's something that wanders around in my thoughts whenever space and pronouns and space and gender are thrown in the mix.

This is why this conversation deserves attention, why it's about concepts beyond what a celeb spews out a 1000 miles away from us. Why it was brought up and matters here.

It's not just a prob of some un-PC celeb, because I come to my community and hear it too, regularly. (don't mean to single you out Bad-boi it's just a good example in the moment)

Why it's all such a big deal? Well it's not because I think men are gross or hate them. It's because it's part of a vicious cycle that keeps the ball of sexism and misogyny rolling. NOT that every person who does it's motive is to implement those things. But it creates a system that says the masculinity, butch-ness that we value is not the product of female beings, and the credit literally in written record goes to man. "She" by default has thus become devalued... and set to a lower rung in that arena.

Female is not a "part" of me, I'm not a "guy and girl rolled into one", I'm not a freakin' candy bar. Female is not just my body, it's my mind and with that my butch-ness/masculinity as well. I don't "aspire" to be seen as a man. I wear all "male" clothing, etc but that's about who I am as a butch, my likes... my dislikes... it's one small piece of me.

These days, in MY life... I don't have time nor desire to spend my days worrying how anybody measures me as a butch, the true measure of me is my strengths, integrity, honesty, capacity for kindness and compassion. I don't worry about passing... I used to, but to me the more "male" you look has no bearing on anything. Truth, as of late I try not to pass, purposely, the core of butch-ness resides inside. Whether I'm wearing my tux, wrenching on my bikes engine or exercising the carpentry skills my Dad handed down to me that's all female 24/7... and if I decide to watch the Golden Girls while wearing eyeliner and drinking Mimosas... I'm still all butch 24/7.

If somebody wants to devalue my butch-ness because I look less like a man than Joe Blow Hard, they can eat me, and yes I said that.

And it's even more personal to me. This butch femme community is very very near and dear to my heart, I have beautiful friends here, and it really is a home away from home and always a port in the storm... something I truly cherish. If I didn't feel this way there'd be plenty of days I'd just walk away from the bullshit. But I believe we have the capacity to, and for the most part do pull together when it counts and lift each other and brush each other off.

And I don't just blow off the here and there bullshit because if we don't care enough to respect the validity and value of all our identities, who the hell will?

And actually... and lastly... about this female ID v.s. male ID butch war that's supposedly happening. I'll be perfectly frank, I've experienced more indifference, heard more side-swipes as to identity... more direct swipes, saw more "who the hell cares" attitudes and more pronoun defaulting from femmes... by far, then I've ever heard from other butches. I suspect this is because butches know well the sting of being on the other side of that stick. And my apologies to the vast majority of femmes, whom I've found very supportive and very respectful... you have my greatest respect in return as well. I truly treasure you.

Ok apparently I had some things to get off my chest... but still the gist to me is that sometimes it's bigger than just a celeb spewing shit and our own opinions of one poster or laziness on pronouns, and we look beyond our own noses and defer to our ears when many community members says, here's a prob, can we discuss it.

Whew, I may not speak again for a week.

Peace,
Metropolis

ETA: Truth if I ever thought this community, even a majority... didn't value and respect female and woman as a strong identity and presence, again I wouldn't be here... my bitch is about lets work on some of the stuff that slides and I think that goes for all identities, not just my own.

I love the subversiveness too. For more reasons that I can count. :seeingstars:

I have a question. Do we really think that men and women are that different from one another? Cuz I don't. (and yes, this is relevant)

I dare you all to name me ONE quality/trait that "belongs" to either males or to females (but never to both). And I ain't talking about manufacturing sperm or eggs, here.

p/s - did I ever tell you all about the time I had to check the oil in my car on the side of the road and I wiped the dipstick on the bandana that was holding back my hair? the (trans)guy who was with me on that road trip said that I was soooooo Butch. I said that he was sooooo walking back to Vancouver if he didn't take it back.

Sometimes I wonder if there is even such a thing as Butch or Femme traits. This week I feel like there isn't.

Met,

You bring up a PERFECT point that I was thinking about earlier.

Jack and I were having our own version of a "heated discussion" the other night in our home when this thread first started to take off. :P
Now, before anyone says "Oh God! The webmasters are fighting - RUN FOR THE HILLS BEFORE THEY SHUT THE WEBSITE DOWN OR SUE EACH OTHER!!!"
It wasnt like that - We tend to get passionate and loud but it's always because we desperately want to understand each other (and in turn, our community at large)

I had a lightbulb moment the other night. It isnt about who did what or said what, it's that the WORLD constructs this thing where there can be no "Female" without "Male". No (supposed) way to define "woman" without defining "man" first and always first. The causation of "Male can exist without Female but not the other way around."
I GET that!

Now, here is the other thought that Met just made me think of (forgive me for bouncing off of your points here, Met), but I do think that there is a very real congruency with how Butches and Femmes process their experiences in the world.

The congruency can be found in the invisibility that Femmes experience, "Oh, you are a straight woman because feminine women aren't lesbians and certainly wouldn't partner with a Butch or Transperson!!" and the forced invisibility of Butches, "Man with boobs" or "Wanna be a man" or "Chick with glued-on dick".

There is a dichotomy there too. I think my experience as a Femme in this world is layered with my experience as an "acceptable form of woman". I still receive sexism and misogyny from the world at large but I do wonder how the layer looks to a Butch.
Jack said that since she is not an "acceptable form of woman" to most of the world that she might receive more hostile forms of sexism.
That makes sense to me.

Sometimes I think it's what every the butches you hold close in your heart ID as that becomes an *auto ID* in your head...

I noticed that about myself over the years... If the majority of butches/masculine women are some where on the path in transition then my inside default for the unknown is *He* If the majority of butches/masculine women in my life are female id'd then my inside default for the unknown is *She*

I have sat here pondering for a while now. I've got nothing in the matching trait department since you nixed childbirth.

But are men and women really the same as each other? If they are not that different?

I don't think so.

I think this is absolutely the heart of the matter. Woman and female do not stand alone. It is always in comparison to man and male.

People even "compliment" women for "thinking like a man," etc. Um no she's a woman thinking like a human being because she has a human brain.

If you don't fall along socially accepted lines of what a woman is, then you are either man or man-like (i.e man with boobs), not a different sort of woman/female.

I think men and women are the same. I mean there are no emotional/character traits that a person can say "women are" or "men are" without someone knowing several instances where a woman wasn't, or a man isn't - and finding that the trait that you attached to womanhood or manhood fits the opposite sex as well.

I just don't buy that men are from mars and women are from venus. I don't think we are hardwired differently from one another. SOCIALISED differently, yes. But hardwired? I just don't see it.

The whole "thinking like a man" thing? OMGEEEE!
I think I talked about this in the "Sexism in Technology" thread but every time I sign up on a forum with a non-gender-specific name like " Me " or "Somebody" and start interacting on topics ranging from Internet Trolls to friggin' GARDENING, I am ALWAYS, ALWAYS referred to as "He".

One of the participants on another forum I frequent actually said they felt quite "suckered" because they felt that I "talked like a man" and was "assertive like a man" and "knew about things that only Men would know about" (Survival skills and guns? Really?)

I don't buy the whole venus/mars thing either. I guess I can agree with you that it boils down to socialization.

sorry for quoting myself. I am still trying to tease this apart in my head. If men and women are not different? Then how come when somebody is born into the wrong body it is about so much MORE than fixing the biological differences? That is where I am stuck.

A similar thing happened to me on these forums. I don't know if it's because of the way I phrase things, or because I swear, or what - but someone absolutely referred to me as "he" in that conversation. I let it go, but what I really wanted to do was climb through my monitor and beat her about the head with my underwire.

In a key way, I agree with this. Even if men and woman are different in some fundamental ways, the issue is not the difference, as much as it is the way those difference are valued. Society (socialization, culture, etc) decides what is male/man/masculine and then values that above what they decide is female/woman/feminine. That's the issue. And that's one of the reasons that masculine women risk erasure.

I actually think that masculine and feminine are distinct energies (modes of expression, performances, what-have-you) that can be embodied by male or female people.

But "man" and "woman" get rigidly constructed and defined along binary gender lines as man=masculine, woman=feminine. Ergo -- we get descriptions of butch women as "men with boobs."

Heart

I think that there are some very fundamental ways in which masculine people differ from feminine people...and will also acknowlege that doesn't always split along biological gender lines.

I'm wondering though about the valuation of maleness as "better than" femaleness in our society now and in the near future. We're at a point in our society where women with higher education and advanced degreees now equal in number (and are soon to pass) men with the same education, and in which men are falling behind in the employment market faster than women. I read an article in the NY Times a few days ago that stated 1 in 5 males age 25-54 is now not working, and many have stopped looking. Even in a full economic recovery, some economists are predicting that figure will stay at 1 in 6.

What do we think will happen over the long term in an economy in which, on the whole, women are more educated and more employed than men?

Just to clarify Jo - when discussing oppression I tend to come from a more global perspective. (See the link in my sig line). Globally, women are by no means surpassing men in terms of education or economic gain. Plus in many communities (other than white, middle class), the fact that a woman works does not necessarily indicate greater freedom or autonomy.

Also -- greater education and economic gain does not necessarily impact deeply rooted social/cultural/religious traditions and definitions. Witness the rise of right-wing women. We can't assume that these gains will automatically reduce oppression or devaluation of women, in fact some studies show an increase in violence against women as they make economic gains.

Of course such gains are ultimately crucial (again see link in sig line) and worth fighting for, but i don't think we are any kind of a tipping point yet.