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Kobi, just trying to understand your very interesting second point post.
Butch and Femme will be obsolete? Do you think those of us who ID as Butch Lesbians should change to be men and Femme Lesbians should try and change to appeal to straight men or to be closer to center...in Kansas or Wyoming? Because to me it sounds like yet again feminine women have no place in Queer society which is business as usual. Not arguing, just wanting to understand how you see this all playing out to its logical conclusion. |
The last piece here is from a conversation I had recently with a Femme who didnt seem to quite get why I as a female id butch was having trouble with any of this. Feel free to add on here. As a femme, she never has her gender or femaleness called into question. As a female id butch, I customarily do. As a femme, there is never a question about her preferred pronouns. As a butch, do I prefer her/she, hym/hy, hir, he/him etc. As a femme, she can blend into the mainstream without question. Even as a female id butch, I am outed on sight. As a femme, there is no male telling her the new label of choice is "less than masculine". As a female id butch, I am expected to accept a male telling me my new label is "masculine of center" and be happy about it! As a femme, she has the luxury of varying the gender of her preferred partners. She might add queer to it as a qualifier. As a butch lesbian, it's women only. As a femme, she will always be a femme. As a female identified butch lesbian, I am thrown into a pot with males. My femaleness and lesbianism is equated with males and heterosexuality. As a femme, she will never be mistaken for a man. As a butch I usually am. As a femme, she never had to deal with the impact of being told she just wanted to be a man. As a butch, I did. And with the emerging trans community, the message now comes from within rather than outside the community. Whether from within or without, the message is a slap in the face. As a femme, she will never be too feminine. As a female id butch, the message that I am not masculine or male enough is getting annoying. There are reasons why female id lesbian butches have problems with being lumped in with males/masculine id's. Seem like pretty darn good ones to me. |
Kobi - Not picking on you but want to use your post as a jumping off point.
I think there are a couple of things going on here but first, let me address a couple of things in the examples given by your friend: Quote:
The message is that until we fall in line with homogenous idealism where womenfolk need to sit their asses down and shut the fuck up, we are going to be treated with waggled fingers, a wall of silencing shushes, or heatpatting. The message is that when we stand against it, we are "Bitches", "Feminazis", "Separatists", "Troublemakers", "Angry", "Humorless", "Crusty", or my VERY favorite..."In need of a good fucking". The message is that we are not acceptable just the way we are. The message is that the only "acceptable" is one that values male over female, no matter the context. The message is that, as Butches and Femmes, we are somehow "broken". The message is that while we are climbing over the backs of Butches and Femmes to build a Gender Mountain, we step in the face of our own history, our own spirit. |
I get your point Kobi and don't want to lump you into anything, or take away from how difficult it is to be Butch but have to say that being Femme is not a picnic either.
While as Femme we do pass (whether or not we want to) in the straight community, we do not have a comfortable place in the LBGQIetc community. What if as Femmes we are Lesbians and it's women for us too and the number of women who like Femmes seems to be seriously dwindling? |
ps..and as Butch I bet you are not ever asked if your GF is your daughter even when they are the same age as you. lol
What I am saying is that we are in this together. Butches and Femmes I mean and even though we may be out of style, I think some of us will always be around. :) |
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I think you misunderstood me. I dont think anyone has to change who they are. Being recognized for who people are is the gist of this entire scenario to me. We all want to celebrate and live as the people we know ourselves to be. We all want our diversity to be respected and appreciated. We all want to be a recognized part of the whole. The format, in my opinion, is going to have to change to accomodate the new reality and all it entails. And it is going to have to become non-binary in order to achieve that. It will be interesting to see what the outcome looks like. Feminine women will always have a place in queer whatever. Female and male id butches love em, transmen love em, cismen love em, other women love em. What would we do without them? :winky: Did you know the most central point in the lower 48 is in Smith County, Kansas, 158 miles NW of Topeka, near Lebanon? http://ludb.clui.org/ex/i/KS3129/ So, is masculine of center to the left or the right? |
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You raise an some excellent points! As a butch, I seldom see or understand the issues Femmes face in the same way they do. I apologize for displaying my ignorance of your reality. Does show why one group shouldnt speak for another tho doesnt it? :winky: The scope of this is quite amazing. |
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So if we make this discussion into a radio station, you are saying we need to go to one station top 40 of all genres, not into individual teeny genre stations? I agree that everything is changing so quickly, it is very interesting! For some reason I was thinking of masculine of center being on the left. I wonder why? |
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Left? I always equate masculine with the right. |
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I am sure it means something epimystical. :spider: Glad I asked, I thought you were saying do away with Sirius. |
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http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...264#post387264 |
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Kobi - I don't think I get how your breakdown of the different experiences of femmes and butches is related to the discussion at hand -- (and I have some issues with what you posted), but I do agree that because queer femme identities are not parsed/policed in quite the same manner as butch identities, femmes have not had to deal with the same internal divisions in queer spaces. The post I linked to above speaks to this in more detail.
Heart |
As I said, butches are facing unique challenges in terms of the divisions and power struggles currently surfacing between women/female folk and trans-masculine folk. But i couldn't quite let the list below stand.
"As a femme, she never has her gender or femaleness called into question." I have my queerness called into question routinely. "As a femme, she can blend into the mainstream without question." "Passing" involves risk and erasure. It's called invisibility and it's oppressive. "As a femme, there is no male telling her the new label of choice is less than masculine". Femmes are female and are subjected to male domination in various forms. "As a femme, she will never be mistaken for a man." I will be mistaken for straight. "As a femme, she never had to deal with the impact of being told she just wanted to be a man." I will be told I just haven't had the right man give it to me good. "As a femme, she will never be too feminine." My femininity will be objectified. |
i am offended by that. THat part about feminine women always having a place in queerdom. How many femme posts do you have to read to hear a story about a femme who was alienated from a lesbian gathering because of her femininity. It may be the most commonly shared narrative among femmes.
i also am not loved by all transmen or feminine lesbians or even all butches. Many transmen date men. i have heard a few ridicule femmes with the "ewwww" attitude. And femmes have given me that same "eww" because i date femmes. Yadda yadda. COME ON. Jeez. i am pretty annoyed. |
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My point, and I probably didnt pick the best avenue for it, is simply that female id lesbian butches are being inundated with and pushed out of the picture by male/masculine. Your suggestion for organizing around issues rather than identities makes a lot of sense to me. These commonalities are less explosive and more global in nature. I dont understand this: "And make no mistake, lesbians of the 70s had a hand in pushing butches out of women's communities. This is one of the failures/faults of the lesbian-feminist movement." I was a lesbian of the 70's. I didnt see "butches" being pushed out of the womens communities. I did see "male id's" being pushed out and it seemed to make sense to me. I did see the lesbian feminist community become less traditionally defined i.e. less butch-femme/heteronormative imitation kind of thing in favor of a more woman defined forms of existence. I dont understand how it was a failure/fault of the lesbian-feminist movement to pursue a lesbian-feminist defined existence. Is it because we didnt think including men/male/non-female masculine into a lesbian thing was a wise thing to do? Please explain. Could you also explain what "butch is now seen as too female" means? To me, I like that butch seems to female. Then give butch back to the females. If non females are more comfortable with masculine of center, that's fine. Just dont ask me to be that. |
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I mean hmmm, duh, it fit a few better who had the ability to change it... I mean seriously, c'mon. Seems like a personal issue of a few that's been thrust upon everyone else... and who loses... the same ppl who've been losing all along. Sry for jumping in out of nowhere and blahing all over the place but damn, pisses me off... :/ |
I know right Metro.
Not to mention saying that butch is not inclusive and then saying they are going to unite under the big butch tent doesn't make any sense to me. Isn't their big tent Masculine of Center? |
Well, there's a letter posted from Joe today:
http://www.butchvoices.com/letter-from-founder In my opinion they aren't listening. They've chosen an umbrella term that may not fit everyone, but they think this is the best way to move forward. According to him, the reason people have left is due to personality conflicts or because the work is exhausting, and that butch women and female identified butches have always been a part of Butch Voices. My opinion: they weren't listening 2 years ago. They aren't listening now. You are welcome as a butch woman or female identified butch if you accept their terms and the way they run things. Same for anyone else under the "Butch Voices Umbrella." |
I am glad some of this is getting discussed.
I ,as a butch have no idea what it's like to be a femme who looks straight out in mainstream so I liken it to being seen as a straight man by the general public at Lowe's for example.Where I currently work. I dont want to be a straight man. Who I am is the first butch (woman) ever to work in assembly. Or back in my 20's, the first butch (woman) to be hired as a groundskeeper for a school district. Every job I have ever had has been in a male dominated field. I want to be seen. This is me. I am a butch. This has always been me. In a thread about a month ago someone described butch -as a stopping point. Really? really. To what? The ultimate male? huh? I have the correct amount of T for me,already. This is hard for me because I sit on the fence somewhere between tg and butch. Best way I can think to describe it. Male pronouns feel like they fit easier than she's and her's but I cant take that too far as to not live in the reality that I am indeed having a case of raging butch menopause. I stopped correcting people because it became the majority who see me as "Sir". The people that do >see< me for me, are very appreciated. Femme's who are into butch's have always been the one's to make me feel accepted and ok just how I am. I appreciate you femme's who are here saying butch's are still ok. I'm old ,I'm a butch and I think it's much more than just a stopping place. |
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