Originally Posted by Firedance (Post 951016)

I have a new favorite Blog. It's all about OFOS, and WHY it STILL matters! Disclaimer, this is written by a cis-guy, but manners transcend gender don't they?

Here is a sample of the amazing writing...


A Gentleman’s Chivalry Acts Explained in Practicality.


I have always been of the mind that in a democracy manners are the only effective weapons against the bowie-knife.
James Russell Lowell
We can find countless articles online praising and criticizing the most evident acts of Chivalry a Gentleman can do towards a lady; holding doors open, opening car doors, and pulling chairs. Those that comment against them, usually do so out of either a lack of manners or simply not understanding why these acts are done. I can’t really blame their ignorance on the topic, because they are not really interested in it. What really surprises me is the lack of understanding by those who profess being Gentlemen. That is why so many of those “Is Chivalry dead” debates end up with the Gentleman thrashed by their counterpart.

If you don’t understand what you are doing and more importantly WHY you are doing it, your actions become simply a pantomime, and imitation, that ends up looking awkward. This is especially true if we don’t have a sense of empathy towards the person in the receiving end of the action. Keep in mind that manners are nothing more than a sensitive awareness of the feelings of others. If you have that awareness, you have good manners, no matter what fork you use. With that in mind, let’s break down the practicality of some of the more typical actions that can be expected from a Gentleman.

Opening a door for a Lady
Let me start by clarifying, this has nothing to do with a Gentleman thinking women can’t open their own doors. It came from two specific traditions, the overelaborate clothing women used to wear and the role of the Gentleman as a Bodyguard. First off, a woman’s skirt was so wide, they couldn’t even reach the door handle. That is no longer the case, so we don’t need to take this into account any longer. The second is the role of the Bodyguard, of creating a safe environment for women. This is something that still needs to be maintained and even promoted.
A gentleman will open a door first, making sure that the room is safe for her to enter. As she enters, he is able to scan the surroundings to make sure that the area is safe. As he enters after her, the lady is kept from having her back to the door. You might think this seems somewhat paranoid and overly cautious. Just take a few minutes viewing some of the stories of what the ladies have to deal with in a daily basis, and then tell me I am being overly cautious.

Walking a Lady to her door.
Again, as with opening doors, this is all about providing a safe environment for the Lady. Just refer to “Opening a door for a Lady” for a better explanation.

Pulling chairs
Again, a lady can sit down without assistance. This tradition again came from the elaborate dresses of old. But can we really get rid of it? This actually depends on how the Lady is dressed. If she is wearing anything other than a skirt, yes. But if she is wearing a skirt, the lady will probably try to fold it under her legs so it sets properly as she sits down. Now, how is she going to be able to do this AND pull the chair at once? Gentlemen, doesn’t take much to be decent.

Paying
I am tired of clearing this up. Who makes the invite, pays. It’s that simple. It’s not about showing off, or thinking she needs your money, or whatever other nonsense people will say about the topic. You invited them, means you are picking up the check.
What is so complicated?

Helping a lady into and out of a Car
Take a minute and look at your car. Imagine trying to get into it or out of it with a short skirt and heels. Now imagine doing it gracefully. If you drive a low profile sports car or a high truck or SUV, the difficulty level this is even higher. Gentlemen, this is just simple act of consideration towards the Lady.

This is also the reason why you should help a lady when she is walking up and down stairs. Try doing it with 3”+ heels.

Offering a Lady your Jacket
Again, let’s look at women’s fashion when compared to men’s clothing. We typically dress in layers; from the undershirt (optional), the shirt, a vest (optional), and a Jacket. A lady will probably be wearing a lot less. If the weather is somewhat cold, please don’t offer her your jacket. Simply take it off and place it over her shoulders. If you offer, she might probably get self-conscious and refuse, even if she is freezing.

Offering a Lady your seat.
This one, I really can’t believe I have to explain, but here goes. First off, have you taken a look at women’s footwear? It’s a simple act. It’s not like you don’t need the exercise.

I know that most of the comments are based on how the lady is dressed, and you can simply say it’s her problem, that she chose to dress that way. You might think that it was her choice to wear heals, or a strapless dress, or short skirt. Yes, it was her decision. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be considerate.

Guys, none of this is obligatory. Nobody is forcing you. If anything, this has become so rare, it’s no longer even expected from you. Just don’t complain that some of us are not as selfish and self-centered.

http://beingcaballero.blogspot.com/

Originally Posted by homoe (Post 1140780)

I'd just like to add my two cents about paying...

Paying
"I am tired of clearing this up. Who makes the invite, pays. It’s that simple. It’s not about showing off, or thinking she needs your money, or whatever other nonsense people will say about the topic. You invited them, means you are picking up the check. What is so complicated"?

I think some femmes may be uncomfortable with this because they think 'something' might be expect if they allow the butch to pay! An OFOS butch would never, in a million years, expect anything in return IMHO!

If you're out with someone who gives you the impression they'd expect that, RUN FOR THE HILLS and F A S T !

Originally Posted by Bootsandheels (Post 1178425)

This thread deserves a big BUMP and let's hope for some lively discussion as well! As a self proclaimed OFOS femme (we are a rare breed methinks) I have had some interesting experiences as of late within the last month. I was getting to know someone first online, then in person and I thought for all intents and purposes that we were dating. Unfortunately, interest in each other waned once we spent enough time together.
Save for one breakfast that I paid for, she paid for everything else with the exception of an event that I personally had invited her to that I will be reimbursing her for as she kindly got the tickets for us as I was super busy that day. What I am having an issue with is her bringing up the fact that she "paid for everything". It made me feel like I had missed some secret message that I was supposed to be paying for my 1/2 or offering to go Dutch on things. This butch KNEW I was OFOS and delighted in that fact. I also had at the very beginning ASKED if I should pay for my meal to be crystal clear that she was ok with paying. She wouldn't hear of it, even though I was more than willing. You know, sometimes, even if I am thinking we are dating when it's early days and brand new, sometimes it's nice to offer and not expect the butch to pay for everything right off the bat you know what I mean? I am very sensitive to this and always check in. I have NEVER ever EVER had a butch that I dated briefly (and no there was absolutely no sexual intimacy or expectation of that) come back at me with this statement of "I paid for pretty much everything except the one breakfast". Wow...I am a little dumbfounded and confused here. If a butch shows up on the very first meet and greet date with a bouquet of absolutely gorgeous flowers and proceeds to invite you out to dinner and invite or say let's go to....whatever restaurant/coffee place/etc. I take that to mean you are DATING ME especially if you KNOW I am an OFOS and you might not have dated an OFOS femme much in the past, but you were delighted to have found one TO date! Honestly...help a femme out here...I am just wanting to make sure I didn't miss anything! I don't date a lot and I had high hopes for this butch, but when she said that to me, it felt like she was implying that I should have been more sensitive and offered to pay for more or 1/2 of whatever she invited me to do! It's left a bad taste in my mouth and I just want to know there are OFOS butches out there that get it! I'm so selective in who I date, and I am so glad I nipped this in the bud because it was obviously going to be more thorny down the road! Please do NOT ask me who because a true OFOS lady would NEVER do that! Thank you for reading, for your input and feedback!

Originally Posted by homoe (Post 1140779)

I've been around A LONG time and even I didn't know the history of fashion and its effects on why doors were opened, etc! I learned something new today and that's always a good thing:hangloose:

Originally Posted by ~ocean (Post 1178430)

Boots it's a undefined line these days ~ but if she did the asking out ,she should have picked up the tab unless she said differently. Obviously you seem very independent and wouldn't mind paying your way.. be glad you found out she sounds like a little girl btwn the sheets to be that petty. Maybe it would be in your class of butch' to look into gay .professional woman. Here in Boston it's a common way to meet people with more desirable character. A true OFOS butch are RARE !

Originally Posted by BullDog (Post 1178435)

I do consider myself to be an old school butch, and I definitely think it's wrong for anyone to try to hold something over your head after the fact. Most old school butches I know - including myself - it is our pleasure to pay for a date and definitely not a burden or something to throw back at someone if things don't go our way later.

I also don't think it is just specifically old school or a dating situation. If I pay for something, or give a gift or help someone out in some way it is genuinely because I want to do it and there are no strings attached. I'm not going to complain about something later after the fact when I did it because I wanted to do it in the first place and it was my decision and pleasure to do it. If someone wants double dutch or some other type of dating arrangement then it's their right to express that too, but throwing something back in your face after the fact is definitely rude. So perhaps this person isn't an old school butch, but I also think it is rude no matter how they i.d.

Edit: I also think there could be situations where a butch was very much old school but perhaps had a limited income or some other situation that made it difficult to always pay and there could still be a strong old school dynamic. It is more about how you treat someone and how you conduct yourself, but paying for a date is usually something an old school butch genuinely does take pleasure in when they can do it.

Originally Posted by firegal (Post 1178432)

PS.... Boots.. hang in there!.... hugs

Originally Posted by BullDog (Post 1178435)

I do consider myself to be an old school butch, and I definitely think it's wrong for anyone to try to hold something over your head after the fact. Most old school butches I know - including myself - it is our pleasure to pay for a date and definitely not a burden or something to throw back at someone if things don't go our way later.

I also don't think it is just specifically old school or a dating situation. If I pay for something, or give a gift or help someone out in some way it is genuinely because I want to do it and there are no strings attached. I'm not going to complain about something later after the fact when I did it because I wanted to do it in the first place and it was my decision and pleasure to do it. If someone wants double dutch or some other type of dating arrangement then it's their right to express that too, but throwing something back in your face after the fact is definitely rude. So perhaps this person isn't an old school butch, but I also think it is rude no matter how they i.d.

Edit: I also think there could be situations where a butch was very much old school but perhaps had a limited income or some other situation that made it difficult to always pay and there could still be a strong old school dynamic. It is more about how you treat someone and how you conduct yourself, but paying for a date is usually something an old school butch genuinely does take pleasure in when they can do it.

Originally Posted by Bootsandheels (Post 1178425)

This thread deserves a big BUMP and let's hope for some lively discussion as well! As a self proclaimed OFOS femme (we are a rare breed methinks) I have had some interesting experiences as of late within the last month. I was getting to know someone first online, then in person and I thought for all intents and purposes that we were dating. Unfortunately, interest in each other waned once we spent enough time together.
Save for one breakfast that I paid for, she paid for everything else with the exception of an event that I personally had invited her to that I will be reimbursing her for as she kindly got the tickets for us as I was super busy that day. What I am having an issue with is her bringing up the fact that she "paid for everything". It made me feel like I had missed some secret message that I was supposed to be paying for my 1/2 or offering to go Dutch on things. This butch KNEW I was OFOS and delighted in that fact. I also had at the very beginning ASKED if I should pay for my meal to be crystal clear that she was ok with paying. She wouldn't hear of it, even though I was more than willing. You know, sometimes, even if I am thinking we are dating when it's early days and brand new, sometimes it's nice to offer and not expect the butch to pay for everything right off the bat you know what I mean? I am very sensitive to this and always check in. I have NEVER ever EVER had a butch that I dated briefly (and no there was absolutely no sexual intimacy or expectation of that) come back at me with this statement of "I paid for pretty much everything except the one breakfast". Wow...I am a little dumbfounded and confused here. If a butch shows up on the very first meet and greet date with a bouquet of absolutely gorgeous flowers and proceeds to invite you out to dinner and invite or say let's go to....whatever restaurant/coffee place/etc. I take that to mean you are DATING ME especially if you KNOW I am an OFOS and you might not have dated an OFOS femme much in the past, but you were delighted to have found one TO date! Honestly...help a femme out here...I am just wanting to make sure I didn't miss anything! I don't date a lot and I had high hopes for this butch, but when she said that to me, it felt like she was implying that I should have been more sensitive and offered to pay for more or 1/2 of whatever she invited me to do! It's left a bad taste in my mouth and I just want to know there are OFOS butches out there that get it! I'm so selective in who I date, and I am so glad I nipped this in the bud because it was obviously going to be more thorny down the road! Please do NOT ask me who because a true OFOS lady would NEVER do that! Thank you for reading, for your input and feedback!