I am not sure about Jess, but that is what I was trying to say! :)

I have been in a stage where I preferred the word Dyke. I am seeing the importance of those of us who are Lesbians embracing the word and not making it about who has or has not accepted us...who has or has not suffered more.

Being a woman is hard and as we have been discussing standing up for ourselves seems to be less and less OK. I have been thinking about this lately in general so this really ties in for me.

Yes and yes!

Yesterday I was trying to say that Femmes are marginalized too, but I hope in doing so I did not come off sounding like ONLY Femmes are marginalized.

I am thrilled beyond belief to see actual Butches who id as Women speak up.

Yeay!

and

I do see how it is important from a Feminist standpoint to call myself Lesbian if I am in fact Lesbian, rather than thinking up cute other names I prefer.

ps. This does not however mean I will be listening to Lesbian music ;). I will find other ways to be supportive.

Here's why I feel obliged to say: I see reclaiming lesbianism (sexual orientation) as somewhat different than (though, related) with reclaiming my womanhood/femaleness (biology - not gender)'.

It's important to me to acknowledge that not all lesbians are butches or femmes. That, to me, is Sisterhood.

Furthermore, there is an operative in play. That is the, often tacit, assumption that masculine butches are automatically assumed to be male-identified unless they say otherwise. (That may not be the operative in this thread, but it is in many places. It's why I feel obliged to be as succinct as possible.)

And, the nouveau construct that a female-bodied person partnered with another female-bodied person, may not be a lesbian.

It is a drag to have to issue disclaimers when talking about my identity and my desire for reconciliation, but it's an unfortunate reality when words have been redefined and appropriated by those who do not identity as women or lesbians.

I have not experienced the negative impact that many within our community has via lesbians- my guess is that my experience is very much like what Heart has stated.

Yet, I certainly get how and why so many here have struggled with the term due to their past experiences. Reclaiming and applying what we know as queers to lesbian seems really important to me. There is just not one kind of lesbian and it is about time that it reflects how diverse the world we live in really is.

I think that the difference is geographic. Even back in the 80's I actually remember seeing feminine and butch looking lesbians out in the bars in NYC and LA...while in TN everyone looked alike.

I've been thanking everyone. If I missed tagging a post with my 'thank you' it was an oversight. This thread has been a gift to me. The articulate lesbian voices here have been like water in the desert.

I heart Heart. You rock. ScandalAndy gives me hope for our future. You rock, too. I'm loving every post by the butch lesbians. Every single one. I don't want to leave anyone out, but I've practically squealed out loud over posts by Chazz, Kobi, Jess, Bulldog, and Aj. I've waited far too long to hear butch women reclaim 'woman' and 'lesbian'.

Damn, this is good. Many apologies if I forgot to mention someone. I just couldn't keep it in anymore.

I'm still thinking about this "defining oneself in opposition" business....

Let's pluck out the term opposition from that statement and drop in the word, contrast.... As in, F/W IDed butches stand in contrast to male IDed butches - not in how we look, necessarily, but in how we identify. (I look mega butch - whatever that means - and, so what?)

Is there something about contrasting identities that some find unsettling, even as they are questioning our willingness to embrace diversity?

Why proffer veiled accusations about "opposition" and "oppression" in this thread?

Why would "we" experience a need for a thread about reclaiming lesbian pride if "we" weren't already painfully aware of "opposition", "oppression"?

For me, the answer to these questions lies in Feminism and in the Civil Rights Movement.... Here's an article by Marilyn Frye that offers insight.



OPPRESSION and the use of definition
by Marilyn Frye

"It is a fundamental claim of feminism that women are oppressed. The word "oppression" is a strong word. It repels and attracts. It is dangerous and dangerously fashionable and endangered. It is much misused, and sometimes not innocently.

The statement that women are oppressed is frequently met with the claim that men are oppressed too. We hear that oppressing is oppressive to those who oppress as well as those they oppress. Some men cite as evidence of their oppression their much-advertised inability to cry. It is tough, we are told, to be masculine. When the stresses and frustrations of being a man are cited as evidence that oppressors are oppressed by their oppressing, the word "oppression" is being stretched to meaninglessness; it is treated as though its scope includes any and all human experience of limitation or suffering, no matter the cause, degree or consequence. Once such usage has been put over on us, then if ever we deny that any person or group is oppressed, [Chazz says: Or fail, to explicitly say as much, every time we open our mouths] we seem to imply that we think they never suffer and have no feelings. We are accused of insensitivity; even of bigotry. For women, such accusation is particularly intimidating, since sensitivity is one of the few virtues that has been assigned to us. If we are found insensitive, we may fear we have no redeeming traits at all and perhaps are not real women. Thus are we silenced before we begin: the name of our situation drained of meaning and our guilt mechanisms tripped.

....The boundary that sets apart women’s sphere is maintained and promoted by men generally for the benefit of men generally, and men generally do benefit from its existence, even the man who bumps into it and complains of the inconvenience...."


READ THE ARTICLE IN ITS ENTIRETY AT: http://zinelibrary.info/files/Frye.pdf

:vigil:

Ahh, I made a woman squeal.... And, here I was thinking I'd hung up my squealer-majjig for awhile. it's nice to hear the sound of music, again. :curtain:

Thank you, CherylNYC. I may be butch, you may be femme

It bears repeating...
 

Cheryl -

Thank you SO much for saying this! Its one thing for me to sit back and read posts and think, "Wow - that's some good shit - I completely understand that"; however, to have that validated, just thanks.

I feel so fortunate to not only get to share in the posts made by everyone here, but even moreso to have been a witness in watching that journey back to self-acceptance and its been quite amazing.

To me, "woman" has never been in question. I celebrate and rejoice in being a woman. I seek opportunities to set stereotypes of both woman AND lesbian on their ears and usually find them in the most unlikely of places (think line at the local wally world).

I do understand the herstory of how some might not have felt comfortable in claiming lesbian. I'm so glad to see it being embraced.

Kobi - a special thank you for starting the thread and hanging tough. Its spawned some pretty damned good stuff.

Christie

PS - i heart Heart too! I don't have nearly the experience and knowledge of feminism and am always delighted to read her perspective on things.

My understanding of it is that the individuals involved may not, for their own reasons, identify as lesbians. A bisexual female couple, for example.

Very interested to hear others' interpretations, though.

breakthrough
 

I think even though this is a website owned by Lesbians, the Butch Femme community has really been hard on what I call BullDykes.

Shes have been told they can't be Shes and that they need to change their names to male names. Not by this website, but out in the community and on other websites.

Not taking away from any other identity. Not being phobic.

I think that because of that checkered past, a place specifically labeled as Lesbian is needed to make sure Lesbians feel welcome too. Lesbians have somehow ended up feeling like a minority and I get that.

I think its cool that one was asked for and that it was set up and that Medusa gets it and came in to explain and show her support! :)

Kobi that you for starting this thread and AtLast and Chazz and AJ and BullDog and Heart and Toughy and each and every one of you for consistently reminding us that some of us here and now are women who love women and that is definitely something to be way proud of!

Well... in the language of my ancestors... I am verklempt!

:cheer:

These posts have been so moving and gratifying.... much thanks to all of you.

Yes ScandalAndy, you hit the nail on the head.

Earlier in this thread there was some back and forth about what being a "lesbian" actually means. It gave me pause for thought. I went down a certain path with it, which is not to imply there aren't different paths. Here's what I got on that.

There is a difference between being and doing.... Two straight/bisexual/...... women "doing it" with one another, does not qualify them as lesbians. A sex act and sexual orientation are not one and the same.

My sense of myself is about a great deal more than sex and gender identity.

I'm not an ally to women - I am a woman. A woman living in a sexist/homophobic/racist/ageist/patriarchal culture? I do not have the luxury of obsessively focusing on my gender to the exclusion of all else. Being a masculine woman does not confer protection.

For clarity sake: I'm a Lesbian Feminist, butch - not a Feminist. I have a different heritage than heterosexual Feminists. Something, I wish Feminism bashers would remember when they bring up the 2nd Wave gender wars. I, a butch, was the one getting bashed and marginalized by some Feminists. It was my war, not other people's war by proxy, or for the dubious purpose of dismissing all Feminists. Despite it all, I still find Feminism to be my way.

The "lesbian" designation is crucial to my Feminism because it says that my daily, lived life IS a political landscape. I've thrown my life open to political analysis. For me, the personal is political.

Gender theory has a different imperative. It's primarily about the personal - i.e. the political is (in service to the) personal.

And the love fest continues
 

I also wanted to thank others who have participated on this thread and particular shout-outs for Kobi, for starting it and Heart for, well, being Heart.

Most of you know I'm not particularly effusive with my emotions--at least not here--I would like to say that I was profoundly relieved when I started to see how this thread was going. Quite honestly, I had been wondering if it was just me. I had really started to doubt myself because it seemed that some of the ideas that others have expressed concerns about appeared to be accepted as self-evidently true to so many within the queer community.

It's a relief to know I'm not alone in valuing being butch, lesbian and a woman.

cheers
Aj

The World Split Open - [ame="http://www.amazon.com/World-Split-Open-Movement-Changed/dp/0140097198"]Amazon.com: The World Split Open: How the Modern Women's Movement Changed America, Revised Edition (9780140097191): Ruth Rosen: Books[/ame]


Gender Trouble - [ame="http://www.amazon.com/RC-Bundle-Feminism-Subversion-Routledge/dp/0415389550/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1313064748&sr=1-1"]Amazon.com: RC Series Bundle: Gender Trouble: Feminism and the Subversion of Identity (Routledge Classics) (9780415389556): Judith Butler: Books[/ame]



I know there are a few others, but I'm blanking on the names right now. I'll get back to you. :)