I don't think there should be a catch-all pronoun for all people.

But I hear people saying, "It's difficult"

If it's difficult, I don't understand why the 'go to' is he/hy

I mean, yeah, I get that there's going to be people with whom One doesn't interact all the time, and maybe One just doesn't know what the pronoun is.

In THAT case, I think the 'default' *should* be a neutral pronoun until One finds out what pronoun Someone uses.

I didn't mean, 'default' as in "Here's the pronoun we're gonna use for all people all the time"

I just meant as, "If One doesn't know, why not pick something neutral"


Because, Yeah, I Don't Think There Should Be A Default,
Dylan

I will admit that for a brief moment, since I am so often known as hy/he in the b-f community, I had some hesitation about setting my gender as "female" on Facebook.

I spent most of the day reading, re-reading and gathering quotes from the earlier parts of the thread in order to best respond to people who responded to my post regarding femme expectations, etc. Unfortunately, the thread is getting away from me while I've been at it.

Now it's past my bedtime. If, by the time I finish writing a response, it is in any way appropriate to where the thread has gone by that time, I will post it. I do want to thank the people who replied to me and I do hope I have not irreparably offended anyone. I have of late avoided controversy because it stresses me out and so I have been kinda put out with myself for writing what I wrote even though it spoke to my own feelings at the time. It's just emotionally hard to handle - especially if I feel like my words have wounded or even further frustrated anybody at all whatsoever.

Before I go to sleep, I wanted to say something about the info I've gathered - which is still only from pages 1 - 14 of this thread. I am not a natural at categorization or organization, but as I gathered quotes, I tried to fit them into some sort of category. Most overlapped or could have been categorized in more than one way. I just wanted to provide a list of the categories I came up with based on the quotes. I'd include the quotes too, but I'd basically be reposting the entire first 14 pages of the thread.

I think the sheer amount of issues we are simultaneously grappling with is really pretty amazing within this one topic.

The categories I saw were:

- The Treatment of Masculine Women in the World and in this Community
- Gender Hierarchy (within the butch identity and within the world)
- Issues of Shared Space within the Butch Identity
- The Personal/Individual vs ? (Political? Community standards? Ideology?)
- Butch Pronouns
- Influence of the Dash site
- Femme Troubles and Trouble with Femmes (Troubles voiced by femmes and troubles voiced regarding femmes)

Are there others I'm missing?

Yes, WTF??

I am evolved as a human being. And if being butch were to mean finishing at male, I am happy to turn in my butch card and exit the B-F community and dynamic because this is just what I signed-up for. For those that a personal journey in which female-masculinity does not fit, I give my support. But this is not the default road for all butches. We are all ever changing, and have to adapt to this world and relationships.

I not only hear what someone else asks for in stating what pronoun the prefer, but, I want to offer this kind of courtesy. I want the same in return. Yes, some of this can be simply boiled down to common courtesy. Yes, that ignorant world... which sometimes includes this very community.

If the pronoun discission was really just about terms, I don't think we would have these debates at all. It goes much deeper and is related to some core structures and values we all have a stake in. As Heart pointed out, a deeply rooted devaluation of female and the feminine exists here. It goes beyond butch to femmes as well. These issues affect us all.

I don't want any kind of default pronoun just like I don't want stereotypes and hierarchies of both butches and femmes. High, low, soft, hard.... etc.... None of us are pronouns.

I am so glad to see you posting, Beau!

Derailing here:

But I'm a bit perpexled when I see the word "sie" perceived as neutral...

Must be 3 trimesters of german (years ago) that makes me go UH?

In german:

sie (without a capital s) is used either as: 3rd person singular for genus femininum (she) or for 3rd person plural for all genus (maskulinum/femininum/neutrum).

When capitalized, Sie is consider the formal form of you (the equivalent of "Vous" in french).

Done with my derail...

I believe "per" comes from Marge Piercy's amazing book, "Woman on the Edge of Time." It stands for "person."

This is going to be a bit of an overshare, but...

From the time I can remember, I have been answering the 'are you a boy or a girl?' question. From kindergarten thru about middle school, I was called 'he/she'. High school brought 'lez' and 'man/girl'. My gender presentation elicits stares, finger-points, comments, threats, name-calling, etc EVERYDAY and EVERYWHERE I go. I no longer talk to most of thee people in my family because of my gender (going on 20 years now).

I have from my earliest memories had to sit and listen to salespeople and the like trip and stumble over a fucking pronoun with me. Whether they sir me or ma'am me at first, I then have to sit and listen to them trip over themselves and apologize and correct themselves. Theb, I have to (usually) apologize and c@oddle them, because they just 'feel so bad' about screwing it up...even when they got it right the first time.

I have been reminded multiple times a day from the time I can remember that my gender is 'difficult work' for countless lazy people.and I KNOW I share this same story with just about every butch on this website.

So really, when I'm in my own community of queer people who claim to be so very aware, I really can't take hearing, 'but but but it's just so hard'. Nor can I take the flippancy...especially from people who have NOT ever dealt with any of this.

People don't change their pronouns on a whim. This isn't brain surgery. If you think 'remembering' the people you deal with frequently is 'work' try dealing with the flippancy and having other people decide FOR you.


Dylan

Not being seen for who you are is worse than not being seen at all.

I would also like to add that for many many years I have also had to sit idly by while friends changed up my pronoun to better suit THEIR conversations, or so that servers (for example) didn't look at THEM weird.

If people don't think sitting there while a FRIEND changes your pronoun, so a server in a restaurant doesn't look at your friend weird isn't work...

I don't see how ANYONE can piss and moan about how 'difficult' this shit is to 'remember'. There really is no excuse besides shear uncaring, disrespect, and laziness. At least Arwen had the chutzpah to just say, 'yeah, sometimes I'm lazy' instead of making excuses and blaming the victim...or turning it into the plight of the perpetrator.

Dylan

sorry, it seems a little like femmes who i believe, 90% of the time, DO get it right and DO mean well and are AMAZING. period. full stop. --are getting just a tad maligned by all this lazy-talk. i mean, did more than one person mention LAZY, here? please stop painting us with your LAZY-brush.

I would add homophobia, and transphobia, and sexism.

Which kind of interlace a few of your categories and from all sides, perhaps.

I have to admit, and I apologize in advance if this post is long, but when I first started reading the thread I had a real bratty, privileged response in my head, and diminished heart's points by getting really frustrated by our community giving credence to hollywood (I hate that somehow queer actors, or any actor for that matter, all the sudden gets to be a spokesperson for us) and I also really personally hate Sex and the City, as I find it entirely sexist and, well, quite classistly vapid. It's also entirely stereotypical in its portrayal of gay men in the fashion world, but that's an entirely another thread.

So I dismissed heart's bringing Nixon's "men with boobs" comment here, because my first response was purely personal and so therefore all about me. I apologize, heart, truly I do. I didn't post this fuckery, thankfully, and if I had, would have deserved a verbal reality check.

Because after reading for days now, I have had to call myself on my own initial thinking above, and quite a bit. I think it is privileged of me to assume this is not a worthy conversation to be had, and Dylan and I have had quite a few conversations about our initial responses in saying that Cynthia Nixon is an idiot and well not worthy of listening to. Well, sure, that may be true, but it is privileged of both of us to say that butches or even further, this community, not discuss/criticize/breakdown the implication of that here.

I am perturbed at myself. I want to say I am sorry to butches, honestly, and have been thinking about a number of ways that I am so very privileged in my pronoun. And it has really hit me of late that I don't have any issues there--no one ever grapples over my pronoun, I never face anything dangerous or awkward because of it, no one confuses it, makes me pay more money for it for things like licenses, birth certificates, etc; no one requires that I go to court over it, get harassed in a bathroom over it, no one expects me to deal with them and their issues around my pronoun, nor does anyone ever expect me to bend in my pronoun over their discomfort at it. I should likely also apologize to femmes who do have issues with their pronouns. That "sorry" to you all is not because something so insignificant could alleviate all the bullshit you experience around pronouns, but just simply to say, fuck, it hit me, and well, I am going to do my best to not perpetuate any of that bullshit, because it's undue to you, and you shouldn't have to deal with it. And you shouldn't have to dismiss it, or not talk about it, or cater to those who don't get you, because well, that's perpetuating the bullshit.

Re: men with boobs. I think the ripple or tidal effect of this statement may not mean much to Cynthia Nixon at all, or her partner, but it impacted us in a way to then weave through all sorts of discussions that continuously need to be had here. I don't think we can ever talk enough about the implications these things have on our daily lives, despite what stupid or not so stupid person may have said them.

I just wanted to really thank everyone here for the epiphanies I have had reading this discussion.

Perhaps this is your experience. It is NOT my experience that femmes get it right 90% of the time.

Never said femmes weren't amazing

You're more than welcome to come for a visit and hang out with the same folks I've hung out with and give some feedback on who does and doesn't default to male pronouns and then give a big shrug with a sighing 'whatever'.

And yeah, I still consider it 'lazy' to pick and choose someone else's pronoun out of One's OWN comfort.

Never said ALL femmes were lazy...only the ones who default, because it makes THEM more comfortable, or because they find it too much work

And don't worry, I also find butches, transmen, transwomen, cisgendered, cis-sexed, andros, and straight people who do it lazy too

And I think we all know some folks who have decided who is and isn't 'butch enough' based on their sexual preferences, haircuts, 'swaggers', and a slew of other 'butch enough markers'


Dylan

For me, this isn't the case at all. Being invisible is a state of non-existence. Not being seen for who you are is definitely alienating, as well. But, once you are *seen* at all, then the dialogue can begin, if it's important that others actually see you for who you are. On the subject of labels, I try to get it right and be aware of the other person's identity and preferences. Sometimes I get it wrong, at least in my head, because I do tend to form an opinion based on what I see and hear. It's wrong, and I do it less than I used to.

yeah we do know those folks, probably the exact same folks.

[FONT="Century Gothic"]
Right on! I don't think any of us should accept the laziness factor (or simply dismissing the significance that goes far beyond a word)- not even a little bit. Not any of us. The pronoun trials in everyday life for all of us really does get to be too much. Dealing with it here is just not acceptable. Either is any default, really. If one isn’t certain, ask. And concerning this site, there is a place to state your preference, use it. And taking a look at this designation is just not difficult.

Even though I think I less internal turmoil with getting sired, being told I’m in the wrong public bathroom, etc., it gets very old as it is something we deal with daily.

I have to add something about the femme infraction factor- it isn't true... and I certainly did not mean to insinuate by some of the posts I made to do so, I was just telling some personal stories that did involve femmes. Also, unfortunately, on the site, even with my filling in the pronoun space with she, etc., the folks that have called me him, he in posts have been femmes. I think that is just what happened, up to this point. Tomorrow, a butch could do the same thing.

Sometime ago in the midst of the butch wars on the old site, a female identified butch organization formed here in the Bay Area. At first, I thought it was great. However, the membership of both butch members and allies rested on not using terms like hy or hym. A butch I know and like very much that uses these terms wanted to join as an ally. Hy was turned away.... by butches and they refused to even use hy or hym in talking with hym during this process! Hence, I withdrew from the organization. This did more harm to butch relating to each other, I believe and was just making things worse between FIBs, MIBs, TG/IG people and we do not need more of that. This issue runs across butch & femme and really boils down to disrespect. The male-default goes to what the OP first mentioned concerning male over female and the overriding thought that butches will of course evolve into masculine and male identifications.

Please, I personally did not mean to sound like I think femmes are the only ones guilty of this. The laziness statement in a post did touch off a lot for me... and it looks like others. It was made by a femme, but could have been made by a butch as well.

What has frustrated me over the years is not honest mistakes in pronoun usage- it's the male defaults (which goes well beyond pronouns) that have continued to be put on butch despite all of the butch women/female id butches speaking up. That certainly has not just been from just a few femmes, or anyone for that matter, slipping up on pronouns. It is deeply rooted in online butch femme communities.

Certainly great efforts are being made on this website to change that.

Golly gee whiz, yeah because if it's one thing we all know butch is all haircut, ball scratching and huge baggy jeans. It's all those people who think it's something inside called um.... :thinking:... masculinity (is that what its called?) that are completely nuts.

It's nice to know there are people in the world like that who see so clearly to set things straight. Maybe more people should judge people solely by their appearance, because yeah... that's how we can really tell the most about peoples heart and personalities. (and to dispel any confusion, yes I'm being sarcastic because it's just that stupid)

I give it that most butches DO have outer butch markers, but the difference is I wear "men's" clothing because I love them... and feminine clothing don't feel right me. But the clothing are not what makes me butch. I'm still butch in my birthday suit.

Personally as far as presentation goes, I decided for myself not that long ago that things like passing, attempts to have the world see you and address you as a male person... was not what being queer and being butch was about for me. I like the gender queered-ness of having both gender "markers", and being visible in that.

There's all kinds of butches, to each their own.

Blah,
Metro

Well judging by commentary in other threads I guess after talking ourselves blue in the face:

- It's emasculating to refer to butches using female pronouns if you id as male. Why? I can see where it would be insulting to not be referred to as you wish, but I thought all butches were butches and no one thought of us as less than. I thought females could be just as masculine as males. If so why would it be emasculating to refer to someone as she? Hmmmm

- Butches are looking for femmes to defer to them because we would like to be referred to (by all, not just femmes) by the right pronouns.

- We blame femmes more than butches for slipping up on prounons even though we have said over and over it's not about honest mistakes

i know it's my age, but i will NOT NOT go out with someone in huge baggy jeans. And i am SOO not the fashion plate. BUT omg, those jeans!!

Yanno what? Bringing shit from another thread over to THIS thread to gripe is super obnoxious.

If there is shit in your neighbors backyard, it needs to be cleaned up in your neighbors backyard. It does not need to be brought three counties over and -then- cleaned up.

Deal with your gripes where they're happening. I'm starting to get the impression that you're not happy unless you're unhappy. I'm also starting to view you as super passive aggressive, which is something I really dislike in a person.

Report me. Watch me care. Cuz this needed to be said.

Serious questions (personal grudges aside)

If the comments were made in the femme zone, where should butches talk about it if they don't want to make that thread 'all about them'?

Also, isn't it kinda the same thing if this thread's topics are being brought up in a thread where butches can't participate?


Serious Questions,
Dylan

People are talking about this thread in other threads. I am respecting the space. I don't care what you think of me. I am being very direct. If you choose to see it as passive aggressive- what the fuck ever.

So Butches aren't allowed to post in the Femme Zone at all? Ever? That's a rule I was unaware of, I'll have to re-read the TOS a little more thoroughly.

This is not the Dear* thread.

If the idea that it is "emasculating" to refer to a Male-ID Butch as she is sooooooo very perplexing and discussion worthy - then either discuss it where it was brought up, or start a new thread. Or take it to the red zone for crissakes. Bulldog's post didn't even work in with the flow of this thread, it was off-topic, derailing, and cranky.

Thank you for respecting my right to think you're passive aggressive. I'm gonna go ahead and continue to do that.

How come you are not cranky about the femmes discussing this thread in the femme thread?

Edit: calling a male butch she does deal with pronouns. That subject has been discussed ad nauseum in this thread.

Well, now, come on there, Potty. We all know that if a butch were to waltz into that thread and start making a comment about anything posted in there, SaidButch would definitely get an earful about how it's 'not all about them'. And if a guy were to go in there and bust up the conversation, he'd be accused of pissing his privilege on someone's leg.

I don't know about the Male ID/she commentary, but I DO know that some of the people who posted in here about pronouns are now in that thread posting about how they didn't like the answers they got when they posted over here in this thread. That looks pretty P/A, no? I mean, it looks pretty P/A to me.

So...what? It's ok to join into a conversation in one thread, and drag it into another thread if you don't like the answer in the first thread, but if someone brings it up in the original thread, they're the asshole?

I like ya' and all, but honestly, it sounds like a double bind to me. We allllllllllllllll know if a butch busts up a femme thread, there's going to be hell to pay.

The pronoun convo started over here. Pissing and moaning in another thread, cuz you didn't like the answer you got over here is P/A.


Keepin' It Real,
Dylan

the forum needs a butt-zone.

Not hell to pay from me, though. If a bunch of Femmes, or even if it's just me, are saying a bunch of really stupid shit in the "Femme Zone" I don't give a rats ass the gender of the person who calls out the stupidity. It's a public forum, no gender check at the door.

Aaaaaand, silly. I know that the pronoun talk started in this thread, I started it the pronoun talk. Funny, Bulldog wasn't interested in talking pronouns when I was the only person talking about them. She was far too busy screaming that pronouns was not the original intent of this thread and trying to get me to shut up.

I don't really know what thread people are crying about this thread in, to be honest. If it's there, I've not seen it. I am usually too busy flirting with Snow and apretty for all of that.

You gotta admit it's pretty asinine to insinuate that there is something wrong with anybody Male-ID'd feeling emasculated by being called "she", though. What an asinine assertion!

Wow, can't see the forest for the trees. The assumptions behind the pronouns has everything to do with it. Why would She be emasculating if females are masculine too? It's definitely disrespecting a person's pronoun, but why emasculating? I believe that would be a question for male identified people.

It's past my bed time. Nitey night all.

But But But, Potty...not everyone's as EZ goin' as you. And butches have already been accused of tossing their privilege around in this thread right here for voicing their upset about the pronoun issue. So, I just want to make sure I got it right...bear with me...voice your upset that others are picking your pronoun for you, get accused of tossing privilege around (even if you're female/woman). Waltz into a thread where some folks decided to drag the conversation (so they didn't have to hear anymore about how their excuses are offensive), and get accused of tossing privilege around (and trust me...after many years on these sites, I've played my fair share of these games and been told many many times, "It's not all about you, Dylan...femmes are talking...this is a femme thread")

The male ID'd butch being she'd incident you speak of would depend on context and the individual, no? (honestly, I have no idea which conversation this is)


Dylan

I'm confused. It seems that there is a flow between both femme Zone & Butch Zone threads. Thinking that BDSM specific and Trans Zones have threads in which everyone is invited to ask questions or get info. Right?

If someone comes into a thread that has a specific slant to it and is not that slant.... and just wants to mess with people, that's one thing. I certainly have taken in a lot with comments by femme's in this thread and MIB/Trans/IG folks. The thread did begin with a FIB slant, but, all of the differing thoughts from people no matter their ID has certainly been positive as far as I am concerned. Sure, some rough bumps, but, I think this has been a good conversation overall and respectful of some sensitive stuff. hell, i've benn smacked around on threads before. And sometimes deserved just that.

Then again, I am a peace-maker type... role since birth! Yikes, my Mom used to tell me I should be in work in some diplomatic capacity.... Mamma Mia!

Am I not understanding what is going on? Sorry, on pain meds.

Yesterday I was totally thinking I was misreading the request for respect as a request for deference, and I was thinking that the femme-blaming was something I was somehow misreading and I was all prepared to take all the blame for having thoughts like this. I had my self-flagellation set all ready.

But you know what? I do think it's an issue worth examining. I'm not the only femme (after all) who has felt that there is a difference in tone regarding attitudes toward femmes within these conversations and I think this post is an example of that.

The other femme who spoke to this in the other thread clearly stated that she agreed it's important to use the right pronouns. I also try my best to use the right pronouns unless there is no way of knowing (in which case I default to "she") or in the case that using the correct pronoun would closet (and therefore negate) me (which would only happen in relationships). The conversation of, "does it seem like femmes are being spoken of and about in a disrespectful way in conversations regarding butch pronouns, gender and identity?" is not the same conversation as, "do you think it's okay for butches to ask for respectful use of correct pronouns?"

It has been stated that femmes mess up more than butches - and I'm even willing to believe that (though I would soooo love a way to quantify this). I also think some of the complaints about femmes have been from a respectful place. I do not think this post is from a respectful place and I don't think it is the lone post in this thread of the same ilk.

Just an FYI...butches have come over and posted in the femme continuum thread (where some of this threads postings are being discussed). They've been (rather nicely) asked to stay on the topic, but no one is asking them to exit or giving them an earful that I can see.

You know what? I think we get fixated on pronouns as a way to avoid deeper issues. As if pronoun usage is the be-all and end-all of respect and liberation. That's kind of funny actually. And really, its such a privileged position when you think about it -- getting to determine what pronoun you use, getting to demand that everyone remember it, getting to be offended when someone gets it wrong, Asserting ourselves over pronouns on this site and others becomes a primary focus. Whatever.

Once the discussion in this thread turned to pronouns, I wasn't moved to participate and I haven't read all the other threads, though I did vote in Nat's poll. I voted that I sometimes default to "she" for butches. Why do I do that? Quite simply because everyone's individual, personal pronoun preference and their whole personal history and journey of how they got there does not matter to me as much, or more, than the underlying cultural, social assumptions, messages, and "isms" (read sexism) that are continually being played out in queer communities around such things as pronoun choice. So, I default to "she" as a minor form of resistence against that. (Please note: I said default. I did not say that I use "she" willfully against someone's stated preference.)

There. I said it. That felt good. :)

Heart, I do agree with you that fixating on pronouns does avoid the deeper issues. However, calling butches He/Hy as a default is a symptom of the underlying issues in my opinion. Butches are still be equated to or compared to male. To me it doesn't feel privileged to assert that I am She. Apparently people think being She'd emasculates a male identified person.

I have in my sig- She is not just a pronoun choice. Yes, it is the larger issues.

If I'm not mistaken this thread is actually where all conversations being referred to in other threads originated. So why is it "super obnoxious" to draw attention here about what's being said there about said about this thread?

Is it "super obnoxious" to have brought shit from here over there? Is that passive aggressive? Have you called that out?

I mean truth, I personally don't really care that it was brought to another thread... I see that as cross posting.

But I do know that had Bull gone over there (or Dylan or me etc.) and complained (even about the "bring shit over there") it probably would have been portrayed (by a few not ALL) "the men folk" trying to control "the women folk"... which I find to be pretty insulting and painting butches and trans as stupid self-important knuckle dragging clods.

Not that I haven't seen that on occasion but I've seen that and more from all identities *shrugs*

One last thing, a probably the most important reason I'm even replying to your post. I met Bulldog for the first time last week at a party... and Bull actually kept cracking me up, one of the reasons? She was smiling and laughing so damn much... made me wanna laugh too.

Wasn't like one of those "not happy unless unhappy" people at all.

Done derailing, be great to see this convo get back on track.
Metro

LOL, Metro. I think you can see why I would suck at Poker. Every time I got a good card in Apples to Apples, I could barely contain my excitement. Here's me (different game):

Oml... I'd definitely bring my earplugs... just in case you won... ;)

I have am on of the femme's who pointed out, politely what I have seen and have witnessed when it came down to femme's using pro nouns against butches and even trans people and anyone else that falls under this spectrum.

I did not say ALL femme's do it, just happens to be that sometimes we tend to be a lil more on the vicious side (not all) and for some unknown reason, gender is attacked.

I don't know why this is, or why it is done, but it's clearly archived in sites we all belong to that it's calculated, mean and not done with good intent..

I also believe that we can make mistakes, and have, and we (not all) do our best to correct ourselves... I also feel and this is me coming from Snow space, that this thread has sparked, a lot of threads and conversations, be they offline, and online about gender, respect, dynamics, and boundaries. The Planet is new, and I *get* we are all sick and tired of saying the same thing over and over, but as I see it and I may be wrong, we are educating new people coming in, and even if we only reach one just one person, I think the long hours spent on posting, the frustrations, and the hard topics and discussions are worth having....

Thank you all for your patience for giving a damn,