You mentioned something later on that I've quoted below also. You said you'd like to look at yourself through Adele's mirror. If we would all trade mirrors once in a while, we'd see more clearly I think.

You and I share a similar, if not the same, personal definition of high femme. I only heard the term 'low' femme at the other place but I've never (to my recollection) heard anyone apply it to themselves. There have been tomboy femmes and casual femmes but I haven't knowingly run into any low femmes.

I don't see high versus low as a ranking system either, but I DO see a hierarchy, if that makes sense, since the two usually walk through the door hand in hand. I don't see high as being better than low but I do see it as being more attractive to certain people and in certain situations.

I also have any issue with feeling like I'm 'not enough'. This applies to many areas, not just being a femme in general. When others see me, they may think petite, which I am. At least I push the petite versus short point because, in my mind, when someone says short, I think stubby. Immediately. *shrug* But I digress...it's like I'm a chimera or something. I'm small on top and a cheerleading linebacker on the bottom. :blink:

It's difficult to feel feminine, much less femme, when you see yourself as something that is traditionally very masculine and has terms like "husky" to describe it.

Is this where I go into the whole "you ate your twin while I was pregnant with you" thing? :twitch:



Posts like this just make me fall a little bit more in love with you, Adele.



P.S. ~ I knew what Sephora was but I'd never been in one until two months ago. It's nice and sparkly, but it certainly does not make the femme.

The very idea of being a high femme makes me cringe and my feet hurt. I can wear the heels, and like to, for special events. If I wore them all the time, it wouldn't be special for me. It'd be more like a slow torture to my tootsies. I own dresses. I own a TON of dresses. Do I wear them? Oh, every 5 years or so, when I make a butch femme get together and only if they are long. Would I like to look good in said dresses and heels? Sure. Would I wear them more if I thought I looked better than I do now in them? Sure. Would it make me a high femme? Nah.

It's not the pinnacle to me, although I have GOT to appreciate a woman who can do all that. I'm in awe of it, really. I'm simply too lazy to do that.

I've noticed that high femmes do tend to be Stone more often. I can see the correlation, but I'm sure there are some who do not identify as Stone. I know of some high femmes that are NOT submissive, though. That, and the whole stupid thing, are a load of hot, steaming :crap:.

In this discussion of "high femme," or any other type of femme, it's fascinating to consider the question: to what degree does the inner person match the outer person? Does it matter? For me, yes it does. I have found that my own happiness and sense of grounding has much to do with the extent to which what you (and I) see and perceive of me is consistent with who I believe myself to be.

One of the lessons I learned through my divorce and the whole coming out process is that I need to listen to my own voice, and consult with myself first when it comes to important matters. My own intuition is the best guide, when I remember to pay attention.

So, when it comes to the question of what style or way of being best suits me, I go with my gut. I'm not girly, but I am womanly. I'm short, but I stand tall--not on very high heels, though. I dress in a feminine way, but not frilly or really girly. Etc. All of this isn't a contrived identity in order to attract particular someones. It's just as close to expressing myself through my appearance as I can get.

Aside from the occasional "you're too pretty to be a lesbian" comments (which I don't mind so much...I like to be called pretty :spruceup: ), there is very little confusion these days about who I am. No one is surprised when I say I'm a lesbian. I have this idea that it's because I get more and more consistent, with my "inner and outer" lives. The keys to this being self-awareness and self-trust. Not that I have this all down, by any means. It's a process.

Hmmm ... ranking systems ....
 

High femme to me is a high maintenance femme - one who is - yes - fussy - over makeup, heels, appearance, and carries the attitude and the demeanor.

... when I think of high femme, I think of my old friend Stephanie - always dressed to the nines in her skirts (she NEVER EVER EVER wore pants - in fact, the one day she came to my house wearing jeans, (this was after having a lengthy conversation about her wardrobe) I damn near died, lol), makeup always impeccable and flawless, high heels that shot her into another galaxy (she was a tall drink of water to begin with) - she always fussed and demanded the very best. She was a sweetheart, but good lord she could really fuss up a storm. I referred to her as ultra-femme - if I were to consider a pyramid of femme-ness - Steph would be sitting right on top.

Do I think of all high femmes this way? Not necessarily, but, in a way yes - when I consider attitude, demeanor and aesthetics.

Side note: I know very few high femme submissives.

Low femme would be the opposite (IMO). Low maintenance femme makes me think of a 'casual' femme - more down to earth in appearance and 'tude. Not as fussy aesthetically speaking, but femme non the less.

Yet, to sound contradictory to my pyramid statement, it's difficult for me to perceive a "ranking system" for anyone. I don't think an ultra or high femme is "above" a low and/or casual femme. The pyramid I am referring to would be based on purely aesthetics.

This may sound redundant, but I base opinions of people on WHO they are, not WHAT they are, or HOW they perceive themselves to be. When I think of "ranking" - I think of who is better than who - who stands above someone else - and I find that to be difficult for me, since I base my opinions on people based on who/how they are as a human being - not how a person dresses and/or portrays themselves to the world - and not based on what title they hold in life.

Issues about not being femme enough have (more-or-less) the same conflicts as not being butch enough. IMO, it's all based on opinions, and opinions are - loaded guns with serious implications. I don't think any less of myself because I am not ultra or high femme - and I wouldn't tolerate anyone making me think that I am. It's about preference. If I am not femme enough for someone - that's okay - I am not going to make myself into something I'm not because I think of a "ranking system".

I guess when I continue to read that some are having self-issues with the level of femme-ness they possess (or don't) - it bothers me a little. You are who you are, and that doesn't make you (collectively) less than. It doesn't make them (collectively) better.

Well, thank you for putting up with my morning rant. :)
I will now consume copious amounts of coffee, with the hopes that everything I just said made some kind of sense.

Cheers. ;)

e, what a wonderful thread! I'm blown away by your introspection as well as the genius of all the femmes who posted.

The idea of a high femme as better than other femmes -- or the epitome of what it means to be femme -- disturbs me. I respect femmes who self-identify as "high" but I also don't see it as a hierarchy or ranking system. "Different" does not equal "better than" in my eyes.

It struck me how our expression of femininity via clothes/outward appearance is so very different than how straight people express themselves. I peruse some of the fashion sites that are predominantly straight (I presume femmes are there but I haven't seen them), and there is a myriad of women -- in skirts, jeans, dresses, shorts, bumming out, dressing to the hilt, perfect makeup, no makeup -- there is no hint of a hierarchy or "more feminine than..." based on appearance, clothes, etc.

This leads to the question -- are we ranking ourselves? Are our butch/boy/boi counterparts participating in this? Do we feel "less than" if we don't live up to the standards or expectations of "high femme"?

Much love,
Kim <--I'll be turning my cranky old guy on tonight by wearing a hoodie and jeans lol

I think so.

I don't hear heterosexual women "rank" themselves. I never hear "oh, she's a high hetero, or ooo, look at that casual, low maintenance straight woman". I do see where judgment takes place - perhaps that's one and the same but in different clothing?

I do believe butches take part of this - because speaking for myself, I have had butches try to tell me what is femme and what isn't - and what supposedly makes a high femme versus not-a-high femme. (I really am not liking the word "low" unless it's used to say "low maintenance").

? ? ? ? ? Ugh.

Again, it's a matter of perception and preference. But in no way do I feel, that a person's self esteem should be based on this so-called hierarchy.

Perhaps all of the above.

Aren't we all conditioned to respond this way, and yes, more specifically towards women?

What hit me about what you (and others) are saying is that the most common descriptor for femmes is entirely based on our appearance. We sum ourselves and each other up based on how we look. Is this human nature or is it the b-f culture?

I do consider a pyramid to be a hierarchy. The "top" (high femme) has the attitude and the dress. It scares me to think that the pinnacle of "femme-ness" is any "type." Shouldn't our admiration be based more on human ethics? Wouldn't it be fabulous if our pinnacle was something more than the type of shoe a femme wears? Shouldn't we have better standards?

That's exactly my sentiment. I base my opinions on human nature, not appearance. I've come across many women (and men), that may LOOK good, but that's about where it ends.

I think that, individually, our bullshit detectors are pretty good.

I'm getting at the collective image that a high femme is the best example of femme. We seem to feel that a high femme embodies "femme" best, even if WE don't necessarily wear (or want to wear) that label.

/off topic

regardless of what he or she is selling, a quality salesperson is interested in making the sale and it wouldn't matter what the customer is wearing. i think experiences vary widely, here. most times i chalk up bad service to inexperience or an unskilled, inept salesperson --not to who i am/what i intend to buy, or not.


/on topic:

cuz we're taught from day one to subjugate ourselves.

It's the Cinderalla complex. Or part of it. We are taught that there is only ONE beautiful woman in any given room. If that's "not us," then it must be something flawed in ourselves.

I don't think it's in "our nature," though. I think it's Disney-based. :)

I think the darker side of the HM stereotype is someone who is completely shallow and insists on being the bride at every wedding and the corpse at every funeral.

I can see that, I suppose, but for myself...it's not so. In one room, I can see the beauty in everyone, except myself. My internal mirror is jacked up.

Disney does promote the 'one girl is beautiful and perfect and everyone else is an ugly stepsister or non-essential to the story' theory. So does every bit of advertising I see on TV, movies, magazines, etc.

That's really more where I am coming from. I admire beauty and confidence in other women. I'm kind of oblivious to the idea of competition, and I never would consider myself a threat to anyone. And, after being around these sites and "communities" for a few years, I realize that this is rather naive.

I do think that every group has an established hierarchy, whether or not we're all aware of it. When I was in college, I really liked one of my classmates, and I tried to reach out to be her friend. She was pretty rude to me so I finally just asked her, "You and I have so much in common, and I really like you. Why do you keep pushing me away?" She told me that it was because I was a threat to her and to her position in our program. She told me that I, like her, was smart, pretty, and I asked good questions. And, that was too much for her. I was flabbergasted. Just floored.

I'm not trying to throw Walt under the bus. Of course, the Cinderella story is a Grimm Fairy Tale from wayway back in the day. I think it is so rampant in our culture that we have to fight NOT to fall back into that "one girl" mentality.

I agree with you, I've fought the conditioning too. Usually what I find beautiful in a person has little bearing on their clothes.

As an aside, kids are best, imo, at seeing people for who they "really" are.

Speaking of internal mirrors.

I am really resonating with the posts here. SUCH good space.

I used to have a kind of reverse-Cinderella complex going on around my weight. I would scan the room when I was around other women to confirm that I , indeed, was the fattest one in the room. A lot of that self-hating bullshit was the need for my widdle baby feelings to stay firmly planted in their diaper because working through them was much scarier than sitting in a pile of shitty feelings.

At one of the first events I ever attended, waaaay back in 2003, I met up with a bunch of Butch/Femme/Queer folks in Kansas City. Some of those very same people are on this site :)
Up until that event, I had only shown myself from the "myspace" angle. You know the one: You hold the camera WAAAAYYY above your head and look up innocently so that all of your chins are hidden, your wrinkles fall to the back, and you look ever SOOOO tiny!!! WIDDLE BITTY THAANG!
Needless to say, I had much trepidation about attending and went on a CRAZY crash diet, eating ice cubes, riding an exercise bike for 4 hours a night, taking laxatives, and wrapping myself in a rubber suit while doing housework. Before the gathering in Kansas City, I lost about 30 pounds in the 6 weeks prior, all the while telling myself that I "wasnt going wasnt going wasnt going wasnt going".
I went.
I was scared that people would judge me for being fat. I was scared that people wouldnt like me. I was afraid of being the fattest person there.
Over all, the party was amazing and painful for 100 different reasons.

Once home, a "friend" sent me an email that had been circulating between 2 other Femmes talking about how I was "much fatter than they expected" and that I "was probably fatter than X and Y combined."

It was painful but I think a small part of me already had a nice soft bed made for the validation of my self-hatred.

The moral of the story is that my Princess often felt like "everyone who isnt me".

I could have had a very nice after school special about "tricking" everyone into thinking I was skinny and arriving with my fat self and people falling in love with me anyway. It didnt happen because I made no room for anyone to love me. (and dont get me wrong, I wasnt responsible for the gross behavior or judgment coming from other folks). But I walked into that party *expecting* to not be good enough. Because it was what I knew. It was what was comfortable for me. It was what fit my history.

Im writing a new life every day now, but I never erase the past.

I lost my train of thought, but the rainbow vomit looks kinda nice on the floor here. *tip-toe*

I wonder sometimes why the horrible, ugly things stay with us the longest? Why do they seem the most true? Why do we blow off the compliments that waaaay outnumber the asshat shit? Why do we feel that the compliments are insincere, but the asshat shit are an accurate assessment of ourselves?

And here's an even better question:

I dont know if this is true for anyone else but I remember in blinding detail the negative comments that other women have made to me. Very rarely do comments from Butches, Transmen, or Men sting me in the same way. (well, except there WAS that one time that an ex of mine circulated a rumor that I was actually a man :) )

Perhaps its because of the desired validation. Perhaps its because of my family history with other women. Perhaps its an acceptance thing. I think that for me, a tiny part of it feels like a violation. Cant put my finger on it just yet.

I think the things that hurt the most are the things you hear behind your back. 'Dusa, if I had known that sort of email was circulating after the get-together in KC, I would have said something. Honestly, I think that situation is more telling of the people writing and sending the email than anything. And I hear you about both the amazing and painful aspects of that event.

Also, I think the horrible, ugly comments stay with us the longest because we have a nature to dwell on the negative. Well, I shouldn't speak for all femmes. I should say *I* have a tendency to dwell on the negative. As I get older and more comfortable in my own skin, I'm finding it easier to let it roll off my shoulders, though. I'm also finding it easier to leave the rubbish where I found it. You don't like me because I'm fat, shy, and quirky? Good! One more narrow-minded person out of my life.

:heart:

You are an amazing person and I am giving you a :gimmehug:

I think I have this. Except for me, EVERYONE else at the party is smarter and funnier and prettier than me. I'm everyone's stepsister.

Or was. One of the things I'm working on. Goofy can tell y'all all stories about me but one in particular is the time he was too ill to go to a party at Pup's and I broke down into hysterical tears because I was terrified to go by myself.

Terrified. Nearly threw up on the way there.

But I went. And it was fine. But y'all will never know the horrific anxiety attack I had.

What makes it funny is that it wasn't even my first time there. I'd been to Pup's several times. But never without my security blanket. Not sure Goof enjoyed being told he was a security blanket, but that's how I rolled.

Really working on not doing that anymore. Proudly I can say I've been to several functions where I didn't go with anyone and I survived. I still get panicky. I still try to figure out reasons not to go, but I am determined to make myself go.

I have so much admiration for you. Reading your story fits into my own angst so much except I never actually did the hard work to lose any weight.

I have to check my mirror. I think I may have a red-headed twin. Self-sabotage. I do this. I try not to, but I still do this sometimes.

It sucks to live life expecting to be talked about. It sucks worse to have it come to fruition.

I keep thinking about starting a thread called Mirrors. In it, you could only look in the mirror for someone else and post what you saw about them that was positive.

Wow. I just wrote five sentences of negativity and deleted each one. Apparently, my joy meter is low today. :)

ANYWHO! It would be a positive thread and you couldn't deny what was said about you. Only say thanks and accept it.

We all need lessons in learning how to believe in the hype others tell us about ourselves. :)

HUGS. It's acceptance for me. It's validation as well, but more acceptance. I want to be a part of the bonding but I can't stand the backstabbing. I saw it so much in high school and then when I was in a sorority (fraternity actually but it was all women.) I have done so much of it myself. I can't accept that in my life any more.

I'm fortunate here in Austin. That sort of thing seems to be very limited. We have good people here.

I just want to give you a compliment now because this made me CRY to read. So I'll make it a stinging one.

You are a bobble-headed woman who weebles when you are tired and you wear a wooden spoon around your neck and I love you. How's that?

Cara, you are my new femme heroine. This last line was positively positive and I adored it. Can you be my fat, shy, quirky femme crush?

Haha! I *still* can't figure out that quote thingy, but sure, Arwen. I'll be your fat, shy, and quirky femme crush! :D

*hugs*

P.S. I like the Mirror thread idea!!!

I think negative shit has super glue on it or something. Seriously. Maybe in this day and age when ALL the kids on the team get a ribbon or trophy, so no one is superior....in order to combat negative feelings....maybe it's helping to allow the negative to stick around longer. No one's special.

In reference to Medusa's "Flippant" thread, the term special has been used by, for and around me all my life, so maybe my view with it is all screwed up.

*shrug*

I don't know. I had a train. It had thoughts, but I'll be damned if I know where it went.

Males are nothing to me, so their comments may sting temporarily, but they won't stick. Women....my peers....now those are some nasty wounds waiting to happen. People smell fear...insecurity...and latch onto it and ride it into the ground. Some people want to allay others' pain and insecurity and others want to exploit it to try to make themselves appear and/or feel better.

It has taken Ryan months to get me to acknowledge that he may indeed think I am pretty, but I always have to follow it up with "but you are biased", which is not fair to him. I'm invalidating his feelings to feed my own insecurities. It's not fair or nice, but he's working with me to help me see myself as he does. Honestly, I'm scared to "be" pretty or smart or talented. Like someone could come along and take it from me if I don't deny or hide it.

Who wouldn't believe that? That made me tear up a bit.

I am drunketh! :drunk:

Thanks for explaining. :bowdown:

:stillheart:

Hmmm ... no. Can't say that would be the case.

My friend used high maintenance to describe herself. This was about the very first time I have ever heard that being used. (Which is why when I hear that, I automatically think of her).

Will come back to this when I have more time (and am more awake). ;)

...I wasn't really drunk, btw. Just trying to be funny. Don't think it worked, though. ;)

:stillheart:

I think for me it is because the bad stuff reinforces my core beliefs about myself. My therapist calls it selective filtering and it is a cognitive error. I am constantly gathering evidence that I am bad. Those things that do not fit the core belief I have are discarded. This is a very hard habit to break. I work at it every day. Some days I do very well and other days it is like I have not learned a thing over the past 4 years of therapy.

I missed this convo... :stillheart:

Hi Kim! Yanno, that's something I've thought for a long long time, that most straight women don't obsess over whether or not they're feminine.

Everything I've seen tells me that what most straight women obsess over is whether or not they're fat.

When you really think about it, I think it might be the same thing, because after all, what does our culture tell us is the reason for an otherwise straight woman to diet? It's to be sexy--and that means it's to please the sexual partners.

Is there any way to separate out sexual desirability from femininity? Only by talking about it, working it through, bringing the hidden messages to the forefront (like we're doing here)... and I personally don't see most straight women doing this, because yanno... they don't talk about being feminine, they talk about being fat.

Is it even possible to have a male-centric culture without being female-phobic on some level?

When something pervades a culture as completely as looks-ism pervades Western society, it can seem like human nature. I think, though, that it's just so pervasive in the larger culture that it continually washes into our b-f culture. It's going to take a LOT of us doing the consciousness-raising analysis of the sources of societal oppression, over a long period of time, to eradicate it.

The good news is twofold: one, we ARE doing that analysis, and two, we've made a lot of progress in the past several years.

I think you nailed it, and I think we as a collective group see that image, "high femme" whether it's the girly girl or the glamour girl, as the pinnacle of "femmeness" precisely because the larger culture sees it as the pinnacle of femininity... and how can we articulate "Femme" without speaking about "femininity"?

I'd be very surprised if this were not very common among those of us who have troubled to do some gender exploration. I think once we start asking ourselves questions like "what makes femininity?" or "what makes true beauty?" we begin to see very clearly that everyone else is beautiful.

I think we don't see it about ourselves because our brainwashing/societal conditioning goes so deep. The moment we can believe on some level that we might be pretty, the OTHER societal conditioning snaps into play--yanno, that one that says, "Shhhh! Don't say anything positive or the gods will strike you DOWN! Don't jinx yourself!"

When you have to fight your way through not just societally implanted images of beauty, but also societally implanted fears of positive thought AND societally implanted fears of being punished, it takes a while to see yourself truly.

I like your Mirror thread, btw. You did a wonderful job with it!

Bit there is a lot of good stuff to talk about here. I am fresh out of the straight world and I have to agree that I have never heard a straight woman obsess about whether or not she is feminine enough. The standard mom look is not feminine at all. I have spent more time obsessing about being feminine since I came out than I ever did before! I did not imagine that would be that case.

Is the high femme really the pinnacle of femininity for the larger culture? I am not sure if I agree with that. I think femininity is not what the focus of the larger culture is. It seems more like a sexual image is the pinnacle. I don't associate that image with femme or high femme. I guess I don't see it is a highly sexualized image. Femme and high femme are more of a package than an outward sexy image. Am I not seeing things right here? I have a very different idea of what feminine is and how I want to express that since I have come out. Looking or behaving sexy is not part of that.

I sure never expected it either. I've never known anyone who was actually straight to consider their femininity the way we do... and honestly, I wonder if this is partly (or even mostly) because the Queer female community as a whole spent twenty years trying to redefine "woman," and femininity came in for some hard questioning during that period.

Huh. I think ya got me on that one.... I'm showing my age in a big way, and the effects of turning my back on pop culture; today's images that straight women are supposed to aspire to... they're the singers, right? The big stars from movies and concerts....

It used to be that "lady" was the pinnacle of femininity--that Donna Reed/Doris Day perfectly-coiffed-and-pearled image--and it used to be that even the comediennes were "proper ladies." (Think Lucy, Mary Tyler Moore, or Carol Burnett...) Even the smoldering sex kittens were still "ladies" when I was paying attention. (Marilyn, especially--she had icon status already when I was a teenager.)

I don't think I would call any of today's big stars "ladies." You're right that the pinnacle has changed.

I dunno Julie... I will say frankly that sex and being Femme are inescapably entwined for me; I personally cannot be who I am as a Femme without acknowledging myself as a sexual being... if I weren't a sexual being, what would differentiate me from, say, a nun?

Well, okay, so I don't obey very well, lol... I would just have to be the Abbess or something. Mother Top. :eyebat:

I'm not certain how to answer you articulately... I was SO squashed before I came out, and it was only the power of wild lust that drove me to take a chance on loving a woman. There was nothing intellectual about THAT decision, no analysis; I didn't even have the language to understand a discussion like we're having today. Hell, I couldn't even admit that I was a Lesbian for years. When I finally got over the "I'm not a lesbian; I just happened to fall in love with a woman" phase, I stayed stuck in the "I must be bisexual" phase for a couple more years.

So for me, being Femme and being a sexual being, they are tied so tightly together that they're the same thing. For me, sexuality is part of femininity and I cannot see how I could be a Femme in any other way.

BUT certainly I am not a sexual being like the stars of pop culture are; to begin with, their image of sexuality is my image of famine, so I'm stymied at the get-go.

Does any of this even make sense or am I rambling like crazy here? I think I have to go make some tea and get caffeinated... well, anyhow, thank you for responding, Julie, and for your insights about what society promotes these days. I appreciate it.