Thanks for asking this June, it shows that you do care and that is appreciated.

I think that on the dash site I didn't feel as wanted and affirmed as a transguy, but I didn't really talk about it as much or come out as trans on that site. However, I do feel more welcome and included here on BFP because Dusa and Jack have gone out of their way to let everyone know that we transguys are welcome. That makes a big difference to me. I know that there are members here who have issues with us being here, and that isn't something that surprises me, but the leadership here, including the mods, has been positive for the most part. Thinker becoming a mod is a big affirmation of transguys being welcome and included, to me. I am impressed by that.

As for MTFs, I cannot speak to that as much. I am not an MTF and I don't experience the site through that lens. I personally haven't seen MTFs being bashed on this site, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I do hope to see people who id as MTF come in here and speak to that.

Yes, there are unwelcoming things that go on here at BFP. I think it depends on the person and where we are in our lives and transition (or not), how it impacts us. I am just not someone who takes things as personally as some people do which, as I have said elsewhere, doesn't mean that they aren't personal. I guess how we approach transphobia here on BFP is in someways the same as what is needed with respect to sexism, misogyny, homophobia, racism, and all the other prejudicial attitudes which can tear us apart. I think most of us don't want a site like that, so we all have to do the work to educate ourselves and really listen to each other.

I am not personally going to be driven off by a few people saying things that I find offensive or ignorant about transpeople. That is a personal stance for me, and I think I am able to do that because I know that no matter what someone else says about me, or people like me, that I am a good guy with a big heart and I deserve a place at the table like anyone else. I refuse to allow anyone to take that away from me. As long as Dusa and Jack say I am welcome, then I like this place and many of the people here and I am staying. :)

Well again, being irritated has nothing to do with my identity as a male. I don't view it like that anyway. We just had different views. I'm male, FTM and I'm the only one who cares about that. Notice how i stick with about 5 threads and that's all. I keep my distance and I'm good with that.

I don't like discussions or debates or tearing a thought apart to where there's nothing left. I'm not here because I expect comraderie or community or finding a partner. I just post my thoughts and get out without any consensus on what people believe as far as my male ID.. It just doesn't matter.

I'm glad i have this site. If somebody said something about my not belonging here it probably wouldn't reach me ... I have an automatic mute button on and i'm not going anywhere.

I've said it before that I stay here to give back. For a lot of us the path to who we are is a long slow path. I had a lot of stuff burried that needed to be uncovered in layers. I don't know who I'd be today if Nick, malcom, mike, krystal, and mike hadn't been around to be examples for me.

I was able to look at this layer of me because they were there. They gave me the freedom and strength to look at something that was soooooo burried. Yes there are ftm sites but I would never have thought of going to them because I was so disconnected from that part of me. In fact just going to a butch femme site was a total fluke because I had no clue what that meant.

I hope I always keep coming here or to a site like this. I want to be the Mike, Mike, Malcolm, krystal, or Nick in somebody else's life.

Recently when looking up information for surgery I went to a ftm site. Reflecting on my experience with that site, I think part of why a person feels welcomed or not welcomed has to do with their personal expectations.

I posted a few times on that site and felt very unwelcomed. I'm sure I was welcomed but people just didn't respond in the manner that I'm use to. People weren't sharing their experience, just resources. I was appreciative of the resources but a bit taken back that people weren't sharing their experience. If every place I went just referred me to another spot ... I just would end up with one big spinning head. All that made me feel unwelcomed.

Since I have other resources where I feel I get what I'm looking for I haven't been back. I'm sure if I stayed longer I would find a home on that site. If i didn't have support in other avenues I might have tried harder.

For me the window for trying something out online is even much shorter then in real time ... if I don't connect right away I'm gone. I wonder if some of what we see isn't that.

People come in looking for something specific don't feel it and are gone.

Su-weet! *flashes his new BC* They couriered it. And I'm glad I asked for the Long Form (now I have the details I missed!). w00t!

I think it's hard for us to say whether it's easier or harder for FTMs and/or MTFs. I think each have their own challenges in their own right and, certainly for online, it's more about what the person themselves brings to the community.

My personal experience outside (RT) has been somewhat positive thus far except for the occasional "one-off". Being told I was traitor wasn't pleasant but it was their point of view (fear?). Since my life as being "butch" was actually short, I wonder if sometimes people do make assumptions about my past (mostly those who haven't met me) and who I am (I totally recognize that this is my thing and have to address it myself).

There is a part of me that wonders if we get our "backs up" before issues happen because we hear about all the horrible things/thoughts that others "might" have about us and it makes us defensive before we even get to the table.

I don't know if this helps but I was curious what context these questions arose out of?

It's an outlet for the art. And you're right, I don't have any expectations.

is this helpful at all? or did i just sidestep your whole point? i do ramble....

theo, i wanted to snip this part of your post and just say thank you. i've not been able to articulate this exact thought process to save my life.

i, too, would like to see you post more here (or anywhere). you are thoughtful and articulate and manage to say what i think/feel ... and do so more eloquently than i could. no pressure, though...seeing a post from you is always a treat.

June, as I think about this more, I am feeling somewhat weird about this discussion because Dylan isn't here participating. He is the most vocal person on the site who calls attention to transphobia. Of course this is an issue about all of us and not just about Dylan. The fact remains, his voice is absent and I feel that absence.

I saw what happened in the misogyny thread and some nasty things were said by many people. When AJ and Dylan expressed different points of view on a particular issue regarding transphobia, several people jumped in and decided to take that opportunity to jump on Dylan. Dylan did what he often does, which is strongly defend himself and attack back. I saw people complain that it had become the Dylan thread, which I think is bullshit because if certain people hadn't jumped all over him it wouldn't be. And what bothered me even more, June, was that you said that every thread where Dylan participates becomes the Dylan thread. That was really messed up because it was a personal dig at him and not speaking to the issues.

Yes, it was in the red zone so it's not moderated. That doesn't mean that it's ok to treat a member like that, no matter how you perceive that person as treating you. The way that whole thing went down seemed really unfair and I don't blame anyone who saw transphobia going on there. There were a lot of elements to what was going on, but dumping on the guy who is the most vocal about calling out transphobia, whether you agree with him or not, has an impact, on me as a transguy that feels icky. I say feels and not felt because I still feel icky about it. And now he isn't here at the moment, and I suspect that the whole episode in that thread has a lot to do with that. So June, I think your participation in the Dylan bashing, as not only a member but also a moderator (and I know you weren't moderating him or anyone in that post, just speaking as a member) just adds to the stink of it all.

I applaud you for coming in here and taking the time to ask questions and listen to us, and to try to learn from us. I just need to say that what I saw happen with Dylan doesn't leave me with warm fuzzy feelings about how transguys are treated here. For god's sake, he was calling out transphobia, and he got reamed for it by a handful of members, and then you made your comment. Can you see how that comes across?

(Above)
Precisely why I don't partake in many threads and why I don't feel that "sense of community." I don't like many topics or the way people treat each other.

Because I have avoided posting for a while, I have forgotten how to "snip", however, the aspect of this post I would like to comment on was the "reason" I saw that Dylan was used as an example of sexism on a thread regarding sexism.

I believe it was BonneMaman who pointed out that the thread had veered off course from "sexism and misogyny" to "transphobia" and that she questioned why a male voice had taken over the conversation. That was what I got out of the post that was made that seemed to be the jumping point for what I think AZ sees as bashing Dylan. I don't always agree with Dylan, but I do try to hear him in his battle for trans rights and equality and/or just assisting folks see their own "isms".

Understand please, that at least for me, a discussion regarding sexism ( against women) is not at all the place for a man/male to come in and re-direct. It is seen as just more sexism. Does that make sense?

I have so many questions of a very personal nature that fall right into place with this current conversation, yet like Jet, it feels like sometimes if you have any thoughts/ questions other than those that flow along with the vocal majority , it is wrong to do so. I am trying to learn a new way of asking questions and it is very new and uncomfortable for me to do so. I am grateful to have found the patience and willingness to put myself out there again in order to perhaps gain more patience and tolerance and further understanding.

Frankly, I have not seen this site/ community being unwelcoming to transfolk. I believe very strongly that not unlike the brilliant article Linus posted recently, we all come here with our own set ideas and even when faced with new "facts" we are ( or can be) reluctant to change. It doesn't help when questions ( even asked out of confusion/ frustration) are met with accusations of an "ism". That just doesn't help. It may be "true" or informative, but it does nothing for community building.

I am no longer sure how to ask questions without the risk of being taken wrong when I ask "why do_____" . I appreciate the very frank discussion I see going on here and would like to continue reading as like any other topic I get more out of many voices as opposed to a singular chorus singing the same tune.
Thank you all.
Jess

I have been thinking about June's question and of course I don't have a hard and fast answer. I have to say that I think offline it is harder for my sisters (MTF) because their physical transition is harder, especially if they choose not to take or cannot afford hormonal therapy and surgery. I get flack from fellow transmen when I say this but our sisters cannot hide their height, hands, etc. And I watch how they are treated both within and outside of the lbtq (and the rest of the letters yet to come) community. And it irritates me.

That is not to say that guys don't have their share of challenges. I just love it when I am referred to as male because they know that is my preference only to discover that they really still see me as she because I wasn't born male or because I made the decision not to have lower surgery or because my voice isn't as deep as other guys, etc. etc. And I love it when I get into conversations where (for those who choose to be real and honest) say that it's like we (FTMs) have betrayed women by "choosing to become men".

As for online, I think in a setting where the sign on the site or thread door is clearly marked I think it can be challenging for both MTF and FTM at times. We make a choice coming into a butch femme forum if that is not how we identify. And if we make that choice we have to put on our big boy and big girl pants and accept the fact that not everyone is going to want to play with us. To me that's when we simply find folks who enjoy playing with us or create our own sandbox to play in and press on!

But I do get annoyed when a thread opens that is for say femmes, and an MTF participates. And folks have issues because she participates because they see her responding not as their fellow sister who identifies as femme but as an other or as an intruder. I have seen and heard this. They don't understand why a person born male would transition (however they choose) to female "only to be with a woman". And rather than educate themselves, ask questions in the appropriate setting and respectfully, they make the decision she does not belong. And the responses are clearly express their feelings on the subject.

But I also get annoyed with my brothers who identify as male, and even straight male who insist on being in a say "For Women Only" space. If the sign clearly says "Girls only - No Boys/Men Allowed" then we need to respect their wishes and keep our happy selves out of their space. This site was not presented to me as woman only space. Therefore, I look around and find or create a sandbox to play in or tree to sit under. If it were a "whatever only" space and I am not that, you will not see me. Why? I respect the sign. So there are certain threads that I don't post in. If the thread is for hearing from Femmes on a subject, you won't see me posting. I am not a femme so my voice does not need to be heard there. I'm not going to rant about not being welcome. I will be a mature human being, remember it's not all about me and go post in the Questions thread or something. I know I'm welcome based on the description of the site. Anyone having problems with my being here can just go sit down somewhere and take a nap! Same with a thread calling for say those who are white to post. I am not white. So, guess what! I will not be posting. But if the thread is for anyone, I or my sister should be able to post without dealing with someone's ignorance.

But I go back to a point I made earlier. We know we're going to have to deal with ignorance because that is life! This site is no different. So you teach where you can, and you shake the dust off your feet and keep moving when they are not receptive or when you quite frankly just don't feel like being the teacher that day.

I think this a long enough essay for June. *smirk*

It does make sense. But I think there are 2 ways of looking at it. Dylan saw someone post something that appeared to him to be transphobic. He went into that thread to point that out. Some people saw his pointing that out as him being sexist. He defended himself. And we know what transpired after that. It is a difficult thing for a transguy like me to figure out; should I respect the OP and only address the main topic? What do I do when I see someone say something in a thread about misogyny that appears to me to be transphobic? Do I have to just say nothing for fear that my saying something might be read as "re-directing" or taking over the thread? My point here is that some times there is a no-win situation.

And by the way, you said for a "man/male to come in and re-direct". I hope you know that Linus started that thread, and that men were welcome to post there too.

A few months ago there was a thread all about femmes for femmes. I never posted there because it was expressly for femmes only. I had at the time and still have no issue with that. What made me uneasy was when I read some posts that appeared (and I always say appeared because I allow for the possibility that what I perceive may be wrong) to me to be a bit over-generalizing about masculine people acting in very sexist and disgusting ways. I read these posts and thought, hey, not all guys are like that! I am not like that! It seemed very unfair how we were being characterized as all under the same tent. Instead of posting in the thread I just sat on my feelings and felt icky. I stopped reading it and kind of disappeared from the site for a while because my anxiety was getting worse again. My point in sharing this experience is that I don't blame Dylan for going into the misogyny thread and saying something when he saw something that seemed unfair to him. Was he trying to take over the thread and re-direct it? I didn't see that as his intent. I can see how some others might see it that way, but there's at least 2 sides to everything. I just don't see that it's all so cut and dried.

My only point in bringing up what happened to Dylan is that for me, as a fellow transguy, it does make an impression on me about some of the people on this site. It does in no way change my perception of Jack and Dusa. I still feel welcome by them and that does give me that warm fuzzy feeling. :D

AZ, I do get what you are saying about not knowing whether or not to go in and say something in a thread if you see an active "ism" happening. I really do, because I get the same "icky" feelings when I see certain things also.

While trying not to use Dylan as a specific example, I have seen quite a few folks get "bashed" or as some folks have called it "dog piled" for expressing feelings other than what were of the general tone of those conversations. I think it is really important for me to try to exercise an old cliche' of "principles over personalities" in these situations. Meaning, I ( for example in That conversation in That thread) cannot assume that Dylan was being the spokesperson for every transman or male on this site and cannot base my opinion of the trans experience or lens that transfolk view the world through based upon the statements or actions of ONE person. No more than I can see one person being the spokesperson for lesbians, people of color, differently abled, etc. Does that make sense? I personally have to remember to look at the topic and not at the person(s) posting.

I think what I need to do when I see something icky happening is to assess exactly what it is that is icky about it and perhaps try to address THAT instead of necessarily addressing the person who made the statement. By that, I mean not to engage in the back and forth bantering that has a tendency to end up being name calling and very hurt feelings and usually someone getting banned/ timed out or left feeling ostracized.

Like you , when I see a thread that is "for____ only", I have to figure out if I do have a place in that convo and will engage or not based on that. It is my choice to read it and sit on my feelings or read it and perhaps discuss those feelings with someone if they are really bugging me. I do not feel like I need to monitor those threads for something they "might" say that is anti-"me". That said, I do realize that the sexism/misogyny thread was open to all, as was/is the sexism/misandry thread. I think they are very important conversations to have with everyone because like so many have pointed out, all too often the sexism is often so entrenched in us that it becomes invisible ( unless it isn't there).

I think THIS conversation, that June started is important for everyone to be able to read also, because of the very open nature of responses happening. It really helps me understand the very different and intimate places that transmen are coming from in viewing their particular place in this community. Which to date ( I hate admitting this) has been something I have struggled understanding. I think it is just as important for someone like me who sometimes "gets it" and sometimes doesn't, to be able to ask questions and listen and take part without the fear of being judged or attacked, because frankly, there are quite a few folks like me who need this very type of engagement.

I appreciate your responding in the way you did, by giving examples of your feelings and checking to see if I am indeed hearing you. I hope that I am likewise showing that yes, I do hear you. Your response wasn't snarky or defensive and I really do appreciate that you took the time to read and hear me.

Will return to listening.
Thanks, Jess

I don;t know why it is so hard for people to wrap their minds around transgender. It's very simple: I'm male and in the wrong body. I hate being in the wrong body. That's all. There's really nothing else to get in my book.

I think it is difficult for some, because they have always been comfortable in the bodies they were born with.

I don't need to help anybody understand anything. The last time I did that I ended up in a fist fight with a bio man. I'm done with others' intolerance and explaining and holding somebody's hand gently trying to "guide" them through reasoning that they'll NEVER get. And for the record, that SOB, my own family member who punched and slapped the hell out of me, can kiss my ass. This is what it has been like as transgendered. No one, and I mean no one, gets close to me.

Well....this is you. It's not me. Honestly, I don't even want to be here. I have to because I'm a Catholic.

June, can I ask something: do you think your transphobia is based more in misandry than transphobia itself? It seems that you are ok with the path that MTFs take but uncomfortable with that of FTMs and it makes me wonder if it's a bit more of misandry than transphobia at work here.

I think it's hard to describe to someone what it's like to be transsexual. It would be like you describing to me what it's like to be whole with one's gender. It's a foreign concept, I believe, for many of us.


Mister Bent, agreed. I think the biggest issue with those that think this is a mental illness is that they use it against us, denying us medical attention, help, rights, etc. I also agree on the concept of the burden to help someone address it is by showing understanding, compassion for others. The idea of "treat others as you want to be treated", even if they cannot do it. By responding to someone in anger, it does nothing, IMO, other than get them more angry and less likely to listen.


To those just reading: this thread is for trans individuals who need support but also for non-trans individuals who want to understand and learn. Many of us are willing to answer whatever questions are asked for those that want to understand or be educated.

I totally get what you are saying here Parker, and understand your wanting to keep everyone at a distance. I think what happened to you with this family member has more elements besides transphobia. I would say that abuse was involved too. Getting slapped and punched, for any reason, is abuse. And you do have a right to separate yourself from him, and should do that.

As for transphobia, some people just won't get it and never will. They are unwilling and incapable of doing so and there is no point in engaging them further. It serves no purpose. But not everyone is like that, Parker. Some people are misinformed and having conversations with them does enlighten them because they are openminded. Figuring out who is openminded and who isn't is tricky. Figuring out when it is safe and appropriate to confront transphobia and when it isn't is tricky too.

Case in point, it took a while to explain it to my parents before they finally got it. They had to go through their own processing and out-growing of their close-mindedness before they could really get it. But eventually they got it and we have a good relationship now. You just have to figure out if someone is respectful and openminded enough to hear you and take you seriously. Sounds like you have family members who aren't and that is very sad and painful. Being here among us other transfolk and trans-allys can be healthy and healing for you and I hope you stick with us. :)

transphobia, physical and verbal abuse: Doesn't matter. They're both shit. And I've had my share. As such, I won't get close to anyone.
Not femmes, not transguys, not family, no one. Thanks for the kind note AZ.

As long as you recognize it when it happens and then listen afterwards, that's all that matters.

I am sorry you went through that, I hope someday you will let someone get close to you.

Thanks Theo. You've always been a champ, and I'm grateful. i don't want anybody in my life. I'm a loner and it'll stay that way. at 53 I'm squaring away with this. No body gets close, Theo..nobody. But you're a kind and good-hearted man. I appreciate your input. Just so you know.

Ok so I have been on Androgel for 10 1/2 weeks and since I started I have found it harder to go to sleep. Has anyone else had this issue? I already have sleep issues and I am not at all sure it is related to the T, I am just curious if there is a connection.