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Quote:

Originally Posted by Martina (Post 683786)

Keep in mind that I usually engage in power exchange relationships, as a submissive, on a 24/7 basis.

I think that doing 50's household outside of a fetish setting IS reenacting patriarchal ideologies and power structures. Sure it's a choice that anyone can make, and I truly do not care what other consenting adults do. But do not tell me that you -- generic 50'shouseholder you (not any particular poster) -- are realizing some better, nobler way of life. Do not describe it as a return to better values. It's your fetish, your thing, what makes you hot. Call it that.

We have had a couple on this very site -- banned now, I believe -- claim that this arrangement was the healthiest way to live and raise children. They really meant that. They wrote it. On a feminist site.

If you want to recreate the gender power dynamics in a way that you imagine were current in the 1950's, by all means do it. Have a great time. But do not say you are in any way modeling a more mannerly or civilized way of life. You may be a mannerly and civilized person. But you are not realizing a social construct that ANYONE except similar fetishists should adopt.

The fact is that 50's household, by definition, gives power to the male ID'd person, not the person of whatever gender who is inherently more powerful. That's what you are enacting. It happens to be a fit for you as a couple. It HAPPENS to be. It is not a good model for most people. Pretending it is morally righteous in anyway recapitulates patriarchal ideology.

As for the red, holy crap! Nobody has a right to tell anyone what is or is not the right way to do anything. That's just plain crazy to me.

Not everybody fits into that vision Martina. I'm not trying to be a role model and I sure am not trying to sell my version of yummy to anyone else. I don't even think I really buy into what works for me as being a "50's" way of being.

But for us, it does work that I stay at home (head injury and all) and Brute works. I cook, he takes out the trash....when he's home dammit!!! He deals with certain "male" things and I deal with certain "female" things. But's that's not how we live or define ourselfs. It's just works out that what he does best is what society has labeled the "man" thing and what I do best, society has labeled the "woman" thing.

And I think that's the root of this issue. Because society sees certain traits and behaviors as gendered, the fact that what seems to work for me to be me, is labeled as societies idea of man or woman. I can't help that. Just because society decides that such and such is such and such, and I don't like societies version of such and such, that doesn't mean I still don't fell more comfortable with MY version of such and such. I'm sure that made absolutly no sense to anyone but me. LOL!

About manners....I don't place any sort of....I don't know what to call it...judgement maybe? on where my ideas of polite and mannerly come from. All I know is that people act rude in public and that's fucked up. The only thing I can relate it to is the law. Your rights end where my nose begins. So if your child is running around the store throwing things on the floor, they are walking on my nose.

This is so hard to articulate. I wish I had better words.

j

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog (Post 683789)

You know what Julie the white washing of history bothers me greatly and I will speak up about it.

People can have whatever types of relationships they want, but when they start talking about certain people having superior manners and how people treated each other so much better back then I do have something to say.

Intolerance of views works both ways.

Ok.

must have 10 characters dammit

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow (Post 683799)

I'm going to guess if you're talking about what attracts you to Brutus then you're going to speak from your desires, it's not going to be a cookie cutter descriptor of what rocks your boat. I don't assume you guys (you and the Brutal One) are cookie cutter considering how original Aj is.

I think you are being too nice is choosing the word "original" LOL!!! I have some other that might apply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by femmsational (Post 683793)

I agree. Anything done that is not your choice is stupid and quite frankly dangerous. Everyone should do as they feel they should do as long as it doesn't infringe on others. And why should we feel we have the right to care??? If it is a personal choice and consensual and nobody has to smack others around (figurativly) to feel ok about it...then have at it.

Like I tried to ask in my first post....how then, can we talk about it.

Obviously we are lacking understanding in the language needed to discuss this particular "kink". And i don't think it's a kink but I don't know what else to call it. Maybe preference??? Is that a better word? How do we discuss this without causing a big hoorah.

What words? Like specific words can I use to describe what works for Brute and I without bringing up disgusting parts of our history. Cause it's not a perfect world I strive for, it's a realistic world. But I need to know how to talk about it with giving offense to others.

j

I sure can't and wouldn't tell anyone how to post.

I just feel that bringing up the 50s as the wonderful, poetic, patriotic, perfect moral, best manners way of life, is so far from the truth it is hard not to discuss it and call it out for what it was.

I mean it's cool if that how someone wants to live, but it is important to really see it for what it was. Just pointing out that fantasy vs. reality is important to discuss sometimes maybe is my point.

That's how i see it anyway.

What I'm attracted to first is the energy of the person and if they happen to be FT M so be it. What I think is supremely sexy is the abundance of male energy with an underlying dichotomy of sorts.(f)

Duchess

Quote:

Originally Posted by femmsational (Post 683793)

...
Like I tried to ask in my first post....how then, can we talk about it.

Obviously we are lacking understanding in the language needed to discuss this particular "kink". And i don't think it's a kink but I don't know what else to call it. Maybe preference??? Is that a better word? How do we discuss this without causing a big hoorah.

What words? Like specific words can I use to describe what works for Brute and I without bringing up disgusting parts of our history. Cause it's not a perfect world I strive for, it's a realistic world. But I need to know how to talk about it with giving offense to others.
j

I am pretty sure I know what you mean, but in terms of "language" - and please don't slay me for this, I will think about it more later and probably come up with better terminology - I think what you're trying to say is you and your partner enjoy stereotypical binary gender roles, including chivalry, etc etc.

Am I on the right track?

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofSmirks (Post 683836)

LOL!! I think you're on the same track I'm on, not sure it's the "right track"

I don't think that I would say Brute and i *enjoy* cause that's kinda like a preference. I would say that the core of who we are, UNFORTUNATLY, fit into societies version of stereotypical binary gender roles. (phew. mouth full that was)

And I think that's where this issue starts to go sideways. First people are lazy in language and thought. Second, there really is no correct language to use in this instance because it all revolves back to societal ideas. I just have to call bullshit on that.

All of us, especially me, need to be more careful when talking about what makes us tick as an individual. Words matter and sometimes if we would take two more seconds to think, we might pick a word that doesn't push other peoples buttons.

But on the flip side, if what works for me is something that society labels one thing, please don't dismiss that what works for me, may work for me outside of societies ideas or sterotypes. Just because what works for me is something that screams out OPPRESION, does not mean that it's not me. Or that I am glamorizing or wishisg for that oppresion. And when people say that being a certain way is wrong or does not acknowlege the hardships of the past, that is just as off base as someone glamourizing the 50's or pick an era.

There has got to be a way to not have this same argument over and over.

I'm not trying to be right or prove a point or any such nonsense. I'm trying to figure out how to talk about my relationship, without offending others. Cause whatever I may say, could and usually does illicet this type of response. It's hurtful and sad. It would be nice to feel free to just speak about my truth without being so worried I'm gonna say the wrong thing because of societies limitations.

j

At this lesbian feminist household where history matters, I took out the garbage yesterday (doesn't need it today) and Belle is cooking meatloaf, mashed potatoes and green beans for dinner. We were both taught good manners by our parents and we don't need to glorify the 1950s or any past eras to treat each other and other people with respect. We are living in 2012 and happy to do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog (Post 683844)

Very true. I draw the difference with us and with a lot of peeps here that our chosen ideas of what makes us happy and fullfilled is just that...it's chosen. It fits. It feels right and it works.

As opposed to being dictated by others or society or what Ward Cleaver expects. If it is a choice, that in-itself is a clear, very huge distinction from the 1950s.

Not saying some of the women didn't like that type of life or even like it now, just that there is a choice in 2012. But, in some ways it is even more realitive and true now than donning an apron and putting on make up before you come in the door. Because it is real. It is what i "choose" to do, not because it is what i "should" do.

Femmsational, you are so right about trying to convey an opinion without stepping on toes. I am honestly trying to do that as well as you, and others here. Hard to write into words sometimes.

Good discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by princessbelle (Post 683849)

LOL!! It is hard isn't it. At least we're trying. :tea: language can be so limiting. Drives me crazy.

And good luck to the person that tells me what I "should" do. That would not go over well. But just as what works for you and Bulldog works for you guys, what works for Brute and I is different. And that is ok. At least I think that's ok.

There should be room, especially and IRONICALLY, in a thread in the Trans Zone, for everyone to be welcomed and respected.

j

Quote:

Originally Posted by femmsational (Post 683855)

Yep!! And thank goodness it is 2012 and you DO have a choice. All of us do, well to a certain degree.

I felt sorta out of place posting in here since it is the Trans Zone but others were so i thought it was ok. It is great to post these types of discussion in any of our threads because we have all been, for the most part, oppressed at one time or other. No matter how we ID.

AND, thank goodness in THIS day and age...we can have these discussions and grow and move forward.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GraffitiBoi

I can only speak for myself... but the change in my energy when I began transition was because I finally felt comfortable... I felt like I was finally me... I found my confidence.

Sadly, I let go of my confidence and my identity due to something we are not allowed to talk about in the forums... But regardless of the reason, I have found myself again and have my confidence and energy back.

When you begin to truly live as who you were always meant to be, that confidence and awareness of yourself really truly comes out & so does your confidence :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darbonaire

I'm very attracted to FTM's :)[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

Wish you lived closer...<smile>....[/QUOTE]

I know I never seem to live close to anyone :p

Quote:

Originally Posted by femmsational (Post 683855)

PS.- also there will be Guys/FTMs/Masculine folk who are attracted to transfolk. Sorry the PS is above the OP but I'm on the road and realized like a dork I left out those in other various forms of relationships:)

Agreed, and though this is the Trans Zone there are guys here on BFP who attract Femmes/Women/Females who don't fall into binary roles.

I have a hard on for queer folk who are like this.

I have to say....

I didn't say anything about the 50's being "better" than now...for any reason..I said, people seemed to have more manners then...hell..let's say in the 60's 70's & 80's too......point is...people are MUCH more rude & self-absorbed in today's society in general.....but of course...not on this website...<grin>.....

What attracts you to FtMs???

Bumping back to the question of what attracts you to FtMs???

If I think about the FtMs I've been /am attracted to, the commonality between them is the way they are comfortable being exactly who they are, their masculinity, and their swagger. Additionally, I've always appreciated their experience of being aware of gender and gender identity. Most heterosexual males I know do not think about this concept ever, or if they have it's from a very juvenile place. Note: I am stating these things from MY experiences with people *I* have known. This doesn't apply to all, just as I'm not attracted to all FtMs, nor do I believe all FtMs are any of the things I said above, not all heterosexual males ignore gender and gender identity. (I think I've covered all the bases...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by RNguy (Post 683801)

Oh gemme ,
Out of this entire thread your post right here is my favorite post . Perfectly said !!!!!!!

WHAT???? You didn't pick one of my posts??? I'm crushed!!!! lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by weatherboi (Post 683649)

I am not sure why kink was brought up.

I brought that descriptor into the convo because some folks see it as that. Some folks see it as a fetish (see below). Some folks just 'see' it. No adjectives or descriptors needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martina (Post 683786)

I think that doing 50's household outside of a fetish setting IS reenacting patriarchal ideologies and power structures. Sure it's a choice that anyone can make, and I truly do not care what other consenting adults do. But do not tell me that you -- generic 50'shouseholder you (not any particular poster) -- are realizing some better, nobler way of life. Do not describe it as a return to better values. It's your fetish, your thing, what makes you hot. Call it that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chancie (Post 683750)

Surely those of you who wish for a marriage that mirrors The Cleavers can find a more descriptive way of describing it than the tired old chestnut, Oh, how I miss the good old days, or I am an old fashioned man or femme or butch.

Wow. Just wow.

I haven't said any of this (as opposed to those it is referencing) and I'm offended. Communication is a two way street. The weight of the message does not rest solely on the speaker. Not only must the speaker find a way to get their message across clearly but the listener must make the effort to make sure the message received is the message intended.

I feel that that is not happening.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog (Post 683773)

In my mind the 50s did not have more common decency. In my mind there was much less. One glaring example- Black Southerners had to sit in the back of the bus. That's not decent.

I like how you feel such a connection with history and the impact our predecessors made towards giving us rights and the ability to choose what style we want and/or need to live our lives in. And I think that it's important to be reminded of that, but I do not feel that that should go hand in hand with what is being discussed.

I guarantee when I am engaging with my partner...whether sex specific or not...I do not think of every person who has come before me and their struggles in this world. Perhaps I am narrowminded or selfish or just not observant outside my own sphere but when I am with someone and I am doing something with that person that says "THIS is US", I'm thinking...strangely enough...of US.

Quote:

Originally Posted by princessbelle (Post 683780)

Julie,

Maybe it's because we see things differently.

Say someone is romanticizing the 50s and say they are thinking of a femme or whatever, wearing an apron, being home all day, welcoming their FtM/butch ect home to a hot cooked meal with the kids up in the bedroom studying, and see this as heaven on earth and bliss.

But, to others it is seen for literally what it was...oppression, Domination without consent, POC being unaccepted and unacceptable, kids being locked away in their bedrooms for endless hours to do homework, just to keep them quiet and out of the way, ect.

Just a thought here, but maybe some peeps are seeing this in a figurative way, not realistic to the actual times and trials and derogatory existence that many of us know was the truth. And others are seeing this as a literal, real existence that so many have fought against and pledge never to go backward again.

Maybe it boils down to a "daydreaming" perfect world vs. reality.

Maybe that is where the bridge is. Not sure.

Just my thoughts.

Okay. I can give you that. I see that. The literal versus figurative analogy. A lot of wires can get crossed when different sides are coming from difference perspectives and I totally get this.

BUT

My panties get into an absolute snarl when it feels like someone is saying 'you are wrong' instead of 'that isn't for me and this is why'. The 'daydreaming' comment feels dismissive to me, like someone's ideal isn't "real enough" for someone else who is not involved in their life at all and not affected by their life choices at all.

Why can't that role be someone's REAL world? Why must the weight of history rest on the shoulders of some girl or guy who just wants to make their partner fucking dinner and do it in an apron and maybe in heels and probably with some rouge on?

Quote:

Originally Posted by princessbelle (Post 683824)

I sure can't and wouldn't tell anyone how to post.

No, but folks....see above...are saying what someone cannot post. Same difference in my mind.

I just feel that bringing up the 50s as the wonderful, poetic, patriotic, perfect moral, best manners way of life, is so far from the truth it is hard not to discuss it and call it out for what it was.

I mean it's cool if that how someone wants to live, but it is important to really see it for what it was. Just pointing out that fantasy vs. reality is important to discuss sometimes maybe is my point.

That's how i see it anyway.

Why? Why is it so damn important for someone to take someone's ideal living arrangement away from them and force a history lesson they may or may not know already down their throat?

Just to be clear, I would love to be able to stay at home. Kids or no kids. Whatever. But the reality is that I have to work, whether I'm in a relationship or not. I don't consider that a "June Cleaver" (Can we please call it something else because I think that name is inflammatory enough on its own?) lifestyle because most of my partners have cooked better than I do and I'm not doing the serving you in heels thing unless it's my choice and then it's going to be ON later that night. So, I take things from this 'pattern' shall I call it and use it as I see fit in my relationships but it does not define me and does not call for a morality lesson every time I engage in it.

I really think I've missed something here. I think it was Snowy that mentioned the Nostalgia thread and I think that a lot of hurt and frustration from when this was brought up in that thread didn't get ironed out. I missed out on what transpired there and maybe that's where some of the 'the 50's were the best damn time in the world' stuff came up. I actually didn't see any of that in here. Again, I've obviously missed something because a group said they did see it in here. Or maybe someone said something that was CLOSE to what was said before and everyone got riled up again, expecting the same thing from last time to happen. Guessing here as I wasn't there.

I really, really tried to let this go (obviously not enough as I am still typing), but it just feels too damn icky to me to do so. I'll be happy to discuss it further with anyone that would like to pm me though, as I do see that some folks are working hard to get the thread back on track.

/derail

I'm in the 'energy' group. I like a lot of masculinity, in whatever form it may present itself, to balance out my femininity. It's like salt on my watermelon, really.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAGG (Post 684037)

WHAT???? You didn't pick one of my posts??? I'm crushed!!!! lol

Dang my brother it is a toss up between the food looks better in the 50's
And gemmes post
Food , hmmmm
Ok I'm torn
;)
ROFL
You made me laugh
My wife is a donna reed but something else other locations
I dig it

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemme (Post 684043)

Why is it so damn important for someone to take someone's ideal living arrangement away from them. . . .?

That's giving people a lot of power. How could someone here take someone's ideal living arrangement away from them?

And if you don't claim to be living the 50's household life, then my comments aren't relevant to you.

Oh and re saying something is wrong vs saying it isn't for me. I don't think this living arrangement is wrong. But holding up as exemplary an arrangement in which the male id'd person has power and privilege by virtue of his gender -- yeah that's wrong. Was wrong, is wrong, will always be wrong.