I see your point. I will also add that not every single illegal immigrant is here to send money back to their poor family. My entire argument is for those who aren't.

Anyone who approaches the US Embassy with a valid case to be a refugee is granted immunity. It's just what we do.

I think we ( in general) wish to think the best of anyone coming here for a "new beginning/ second chance". It is not always the case. Read: 9/11

Some of those guys somehow got valid pilots licenses. How does that shit happen? How do we document folks we slide through?

Not being in a border state struggling with such intimate issues, it is hard for me to be very compassionate. I try, but I also try to be compassionate for the folks who died at the hands of terrorists who were able to take charge of our planes. Ya know? It's a very precarious place to be in judging which is more humane. Asking for papers.. or assuming the good.

Yes, i do follow. Do you follow me?

Again, in foreign countries, you go in showing your ID. You don't go in via the back of a van.

The problem this country has in keeping track of folks is the many routes taken to enter. I have yet to hear of any American traveling into another country without passport through a sideways manner and then wonder why they got busted.

No, this is not what "we" do. If you like I can direct you to plenty of valid sources that would rebuttal that statement.

Those "guys" got in to the US legally. Imagine that! And they got into the US legally even after the 1996 law which was a freaking joke!

They got pilot licenses because they passed the requirements to be pilots, they were not required to see if they were terrorists. That was the job of the CIA and FBI, at which they failed miserably, but that is a whole other thread.

Anthony McVeigh, I am sure you have heard of him, he is a terrorist and an US born citizen, go figure!

Again, had those terrorist been asked papers they would have shown they were legal US residents, so what is your point?

To bring 911 into this conversation is ridiculous. It is what the Bush administration and Republicans tried to do for 8 years and look where that got us.

Facts, and statistics show that most, if not all undocumented immigrants come to the US just for the very fact Gemme mentioned.

Few immigrants, legal or undocumented are terrorists. I have facts to back that statement.

"at the border" is the big difference...

it does happen, we just don't live there...
 

i don't want to live in north korea, do you?

this was pretty big news august, 2009.

Former President Clinton Headed Home from North Korea with Journalists
Clinton Spokesman Says Former President Homebound, with Ling and Lee Onboard.

Former President Bill Clinton ended his surprise trip to North Korea today, bringing home the two Asian-American journalists who had been jailed in the secretive nation, after he helped negotiate their pardons.

Bill Clinton, along with Euna Lee and Laura Ling, touch down at Calif.
Clinton spokesman Matt McKenna verified Tuesday evening that Clinton "has safely left North Korea with Laura Ling and Euna Lee" and was "en route to Los Angeles where Laura and Euna will be reunited with their families."

North Korea's leader Kim Jong-Il today ordered the release of jailed U.S. journalists Laura Ling and Euna Lee through "a special pardon," the country's state-run news agency reported Tuesday.

North Korea's Central News Agency said Clinton took a surprise trip to the country to negotiate Ling and Lee's release apologized for the two female journalists "illegally crossing the border and committing a grave crime against our nation."

Ling and Lee's families said in a joint statement they are "overjoyed by the news of their pardon."

link: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Inter...8245688&page=1

wow that's really racist. what back of who's van? so should we target van-drivers? is there a certain type of van, a particular color of van we should be on the look out for? there's lots of mormon van drivers, do you think they want to be stopped and questioned about who they've got riding in their vehicle?

it's utterly irresponsible and misguided to suggest that racism is okay cuz i'll have some papers to show when i'm stopped, the point is that the bill is racist in nature, the bill already divides a fractured community--it stinks of jim crow laws and nazi germany. being white/passing for white doesn't give anyone the okay to ignore racist legislature--bigotry/hate/suspicion hurts everyone, erodes and divides its people.

I'm on my way out for the evening, but I just had to stop by and laugh my ass off over this comment.....

i didn't think playing devil's advocate worked out well for you in the past, perhaps it's time to give it a rest when it comes to ANY thread that touches on race? it's disrespectful to 'play' at what many of us are *living*.

and also, forgive my skepticism, i'm having a super hard time thinking your posts are just about 'devil's advocacy' when you've advocated prior for waving the confederate flag as a symbol of southern heritage, and now here, a proponent of showing *papers* and suggesting immigrants arrive to this country, 'unlike americans', by van--that's really awful close to *othering* immigrants and saying they 'swam across', and other derogatory ways that racists refer to mexicans.

Hey All,

I just wanted to come in here for a bit and gently remind folks that this topic is a heated one, and that there are some high emotions running through this thread. I think that's healthy and appropriate when dealing with political matters that have racist connotations.

I hope we can keep discussing the *issue* and not the person writing about the issue. Let's all make sure that we aren't being personal when addressing someone.

For instance, I think it is perfectly fine for someone to say, "Hey, that thing you said just now was really racist" and give examples of why they feel that way.

I think it is fine for the other person to respond, "Actually no, I don't feel that it's racist and here's why..."

What is not ok, is taking the conversation in a personal direction because other people are trying to participate as well and we want to talk about the *issue* and not JUST people's personal racism. If we need to talk about the racism (and clearly, we do...I think we can do that constructively). Ok?

This isn't a mod, per se, just wanted to make sure we stay on track.

In the immortal words of Ozzy Osborne, "Love you all: You're all fucking mad."

me

It is my understanding that there are no border checkpoints where you have to show papers in any of the countries that belong to the European Union.............meaning you can go to Germany from France and not be asked for papers.