Double Dutch is a jump rope technique!

I don't think I've ever had to figure out who does what for whom (on a date) because by the time we get to the dating phase we know each other well enough to understand what we can expect from each other. It's stressful not have a clear understanding of your date's expectations. I don't imagine most dates go well under ambiguous circumstances.

The one thing I haven't seen included in the list of OFOS behavior is standing when you're meeting/greeting someone. I have been surprised at how infrequently I've been the recipient of that courtesy even from self identified OFOS butches. The exception is work related. Both men and women I've been meeting/greeting usually do stand to shake my hand.

I don't expect a date to stand each time I leave a table in a restaurant, but I would be impressed. That seems to have fallen out of favor.

And when did helping a woman with her chair stop being a thing? I can remember my dad helping my grandmother (a widow) and then my mom when we ate out. It's the most helpful thing you can do if we're in a skirt or dress.

As a femme on wheels, I suppose I have a little bit of a different take on why I'm old school. Growing up with disabilities taught me the stark difference between "coddled" and "loved", and it also taught me to watch for when I was being treated as *too* fragile. First and foremost, I want to be loved, protected, and respected, not mollycoddled as if I were to shatter at any moment. (Hint: I won't.) I need to be able to have a riveting discourse with my butch/transguy, engage my brain, but also know it's okay to ask for help reaching things on the top shelf. Or help with spiders. (I'm hopeless with those.) I like knowing the person I'm with not only remembers how hard we've fought as a community for the rights we have, but I know I can count on to keep fighting the good fight when necessary, and knows that we PwD are still fighting for basic physical access to everyday things like sidewalks. I want to know that if I'm asked out to dinner, I'm not going to get to the restaurant and discover it's inaccessible. That would be already checked.

And, yeah, aesthetics...I like to be free to wear my skirts, dresses, and stilettos, because once upon a time I was chided for my girly choices by others. I wasn't "gay enough" to them -- whatever that means. And finally, YES, I like to be with a butch/transguy who knows how to dress for the occasion -- even if the occasion is just us looking awesome together. A sports coat, a nice shirt, and a little cologne go a loooong way sometimes. A tie goes even farther. A bow tie? Aces.

OFOS comes from the heart and soul. It's a manifestation of who you are and what you value..not a rigid set of rules and manners you feel obliged to follow but have no personal belief in...There are various types of relationships and people believe or seek what appeals to them. Labels are convenient but can become destructive if you use them to limit options for yourself or others...Understanding who you are and what you want is comforting and affirming..and if you can find a like minded soul-heaven

Oh, to be young again!

i agree, its the BF dynamic that i am starting to see as Old School :(

I may not be anyone else's idea of OFOS, but I won't have much erotic friction with my date unless she radiates that special kind of undefinable masculine energy that I feel can only be described as 'Old School Butch'. She may or may not pull out my chair. She may or may not walk on the street side, (protective side), when we're out together. There are so many traditionally masculine actions an old school butch may or may not take, and none of those actions qualifies or disqualifies her in my book. Because, frankly, there is no book. I think it varies from person to person, from relationship to relationship, and from situation to situation. As has been written above, simple manners are always expected. Crass actions are always crass. That has less to do with being OFOS than being raised well, or raising ones self well.

Unless previous arrangements have been made, I always pay my own way on a date. Always have, always will. I've dated butch women who were accustomed to dating femmes who would never dream of opening up their purse when the check arrived. I always let them know that it's their job to let me know if they're asking me out on a special date where they're going to pay for everything. Then I can agree to or decline the offer.

My most recent gf was not particularly comfortable with my expectations around paying, and she created all sorts of friction by disrespecting my boundaries. It's rude to violate agreed upon boundaries, and those violations definitely contributed a bit to the demise of that relationship. Other 'traditional' things my ex gf did worked really well for me, though. It's a lot harder to drive in 4" stilettos than in masculine footwear. Not to mention that it's way too easy to damage those pretty high heels while driving in NYC traffic. I was happy that she wanted to do the driving when we were dressed up to go out. (This from a woman frequently documented riding a large displacement motorcycle in NYC Pride Parades while wearing 4" stilettos!). It's not that I let her drive because she's the butch and that's the OFOS way. And it certainly wasn't because she was better at it. It was because she was just as invested in protecting my shoes as I was. My food allergies embarrass me, but I must be very careful when ordering at a restaurant. At a certain point when it looks like I may not be able to find something on the menu that won't make me very sick, I'm ready to give up. I just hate calling attention to myself that way. It worked quite well for me to discuss menu options with my ex and then let her order. She enjoyed ordering for us, and I didn't have to face the possibility of friction with a waiter who might not understand the gravity of my food requirements. I enjoyed being protected that way, too, but I never wanted anyone to order for me before my food allergies became so numerous and severe. I recently went out with a group of friends which included the above-mentioned ex. She ordered for me. It made me giggle a bit, but I was fine with it.

I feel that a reflexive adherence to mid 20th century norms for male-female interactions is a recipe for me to feel disempowered, but choosing the rituals that feel right for myself and right for the dynamic between myself and the butch I'm dating is quite empowering. Once again, we choose which rituals work for us in our individual situations. I could never adhere to rigid standards regarding who does what based entirely on gender identity. Does that disqualify me from the OFOS club?

BUMP..............

We are an *OFOS* couple <3<3
 

We both met each other on a hot August afternoon, after a long bike ride -- sitting at an open-air bar out in the countryside.

He treats me with incredible respect and deference. I'm the same with him.

Our values match and we both are introverted yet because I work in an intense customer service role, he would say I'm more extroverted, but he has come to see that I require more space to process everyday life, etc. :bow:

One time, I said to him that if he ever wanted to leave me that I'd still love him and treat him well. He said "You're not getting rid of me anytime soon". Then, on that note, we heard Cigarettes After Sex's song Apocalypse lilt through the air and he leaned over and whispered in my ear that he would haunt me the rest of my life. :stillheart::kissy::stillheart:


Happy Holiday's,

:hk19::hk35::hk2:

OFOS Butchs & Femmes
 

https://youtu.be/2Q7IzwUa_kI?si=CxJ9YIxtOBn6yJbx









This Butch speaks for me any time. She has written so many things besides this but I agree with her speaches . Look up Ivan Coyote and see the wonderful work she has done in so many ways. Enjoy.