Snowy thank you. Some of these issues I've been talking about online for 10 years. I do get frustrated at times when it seems we've made little ground or had a long discussion in a thread and lots of people don't seem to understand what the hell we are even talking about.

Time for me to go chill and do my work.

I am the one that made this statement. Is it the word emasculating that bothers you? Does it (or did I) somehow imply that *she* is a bad word? Because that is not at ALL what I was saying.

My point was this: If somebody IS a male id'd butch, has asked to be called hy/he and now has the name Trenton instead of Tiffany? It IS emasculating (or whatever word you think fits here. if there is a better word, please tell me) for somebody to attack their chosen gender and use their given name as a way to be hurtful.

Not because of the use of feminine pronouns Bulldog, but because of the complete and total disregard for that individual as a human being.

Please help me understand why me stating this made you feel like you'd talk yourself blue in the face for nothing? Because you know me better than that. I hope.

What do you mean by emasculating? I take that to mean taking away someone's masculinity. If females are masculine as well, why would it be emasculating to call someone by a female (not feminine in my opinion) pronoun? I certainly do think it's disrespectful.

emasculate: weaken somebody or something: to deprive somebody or something of effectiveness, spirit, or force

eta: it can also mean to castrate, which is not the intent with which I used it.

I know you're not asking me SF, but I'd say it is disrespectful, thoughtless rude etc.

I agree the person using it probably is attempting to emasculate... but in that not only insulting male ID but female ID by using their pronoun as if it is an "emasculator".

And to agree that's what it does... is to agree it's a feminizing pronoun.

In a nutshell... saying "she" emasculates someone is saying butches who use it by choice are not masculine.

Which is just another form of masculinity=male.

Peace,
Metro

Used as a verb, emasculate means to castrate or weaken or deprive of strength. Used as an adjective it means deprived of strength or vigor. Except in the one noun form the word can be used in connection with male/female or masculine/feminine. I believe this word is often misused to mean undermining masculinity in some way or form or making a person feel not masculine enough. I think this is an incorrect use of the word. I think in its present day use and connotations, the word emasculate is also misogynistic. Its similar to calling someone a "girl" or a "pansy" or a "fairy" or "prissy" or a "pussy" all words used to make men feel less than men (hence women, hence less than, inferior, or substandard). Once men and women are truly perceived as equals perhaps the whole need for gendered pronouns will disappear altogether and perhaps we can have just one pronoun for everyone. The gendering of language takes us back to the binaries and the binaries always place the feminized term at the bottom as somehow weaker and less than.

So for example, If I expressed my desire to be refered to with the male pronounn he, and someone insisted on using the female pronoun she, I would think of them as rude and disrespectful , but I would not feel emasculated. And vice versa. If I prefer the female pronoun she but someone insisted on using he, I would also not feel emasculated.

Rufus

I know Im off topic again but this discussion is amazing and Im now wondering if anyone would find a thread about the binary of language and examples thereof interesting?
Not just in relation to gender but how the word "prissy" is seen in on way and the word "brusque" is seen in another.

I also think it emasculating to call a female id'd Butch he and him when they have not asked to be called that. BUT I will find another word to convey what I am saying. I think it goes a hell of a lot deeper than just being disrespectful, thoughtless and rude in either instance. Both are pointedly attacking gender.

I'm sorry for mis speaking. I apologize.

Yes, I would find a thread like this interesting. Language controls our reality and perceptions and hence controls us. Once we know how language works we are in a better position to unpack it and all the gendering that undermines us as men, women, trans, queer, gay straight and on and on

Rufus

I refuse to give a pronoun that much power over me.

Rufus

YES!!!

This would be very helpful for me, here is why not that you asked..

English is my second language, so I hear and read everyone in a spanish filter then I have to translate, add the fucking dyslexia and I wanna scream sometimes.

Thank you...:blink:

See I too have used this word to describe what you are saying, and getting the info from the horses mouth made it true so now I am fucking confused.:spider:

God yes!

Good for you!

Right? But if it is the wrong word, I shall not use it again. I didn't know that was how it was being interpreted at all. Again, my apologies.

Deleting... because frankly... it's tired, lol.

Isn't it if that is not how they identify? I *get it*. I'll not use the word again. Let's move along, ok?

Yes this is how I see it.

I can see this as well. I think it was Cyclopea who said earlier that it felt like we were being neutered when called He by default and I agreed with her. That's kind of the same thing you are saying, only it's using a different word.

I do object to seeing masculine used in ways to signify non-female or non-woman. I don't care for masculine-identified because it seems to signify non-female, non-woman. At the same time, there are big limitations in language for people to use to describe themselves in non-binary terms.

I am really not trying to be picky, but She can be just as masculine as He in my opinion.

Adele, I really didn't take this as coming from you personally. Other people were talking about that it and people use emasculate and feminize as terms a lot when referring to butch, but thank you. You are always very considerate.

Sounds interesting... yep.

Ah yeah... I had already deleted that post to "move along".

And you can use the word if you want, that's not up to me... I was just responding to your bringing it up and asking questions specifically about it and giving my perspective (and also- I was replying to Rufusboi)

I agree that She can be just as masculine. Maybe one day language will catch up to reality? I sure hope so. A girl can only stick her foot in her mouth so many times without getting crud mouth.

I've been reading this thread all along...learning alot, questioning alot...

For me, the crux of the whole matter is intentionality. If I make an honest mistake in pronoun use, or even with someone's name, and apologize and correct, then I think most folks are okay with that. Heck, I get "he'd" in my work life....my name is Jo and I have a deep voice, and most of my co-workers have never seen me since I work virtually. Many have thought they were meeting "Joe" at our annual company meeting (which has led to some pretty funny conversations btw...). I laugh it off because, frankly, I don't care. It's a misunderstanding, nothing more.

I'm astounded to read about some of the nastiness though....telling femmes that they're acting "too butch", intentionally calling an ex by the opposite pronoun or a given name to purposefully disrespect them. The issue, for me anyway, isn't whether I accidentally call someone "hy" that uses "she" or vice versa. The issue is if we are using gender, or sexual preferences, as a way to beat each other over the head out of sheer nastiness.

Again, just for me...this sounds like middle-school bullying whereby the vicious kids spotted and zeroed in on the sore spot in order to victimize and belittle ....the short one, the fat one, the nerdy one, the "fill in the blank" one. For me, that's different from misogyny...that's just plain mean.

It's a *privilege* to expect someone to use the correct pronoun? Really? And what kind of privilege is it when women expect to be seen as women?

Because I know you can't be talking about transsexed folks here *demanding* that people use the correct pronoun. Because it's actually quite cis-sexed privileged for people to pick and choose transfolks' pronouns as they see fit.

Lisa Haney and Julia Serano (transfeminists) have broken that down a number of times.

I would also argue that it's cis-gendered privileged for others to pick and choose the pronoun of gender non-conforming folks.

It's funny to me when those who sit in the *privilege* of NEVER having their pronouns screwed up start whipping out the "It's so privileged for you to *demand* I get your pronoun correct"...ESPECIALLY coming from someone who gets so upset by Cynthia Nixon's Men With Boobs comment. I don't understand how you sit and type with one hand that the comment, "A man with boobs" is so sexist, and everything else...yet you then say, it's privileged to expect people not to default to he for butches with the other hand. Because I've seen you type a million times that it's sexist to default to he for butches. So, which is it? Are butches the oppressed in a sexist and gender-normative world, or are they The Privileged?

Honestly, this sounds like a defensive tactic, because you feel that femmes are being unduly 'attacked' when butches (and even some femmes in this thread) point out that they see this behavior more from femmes (the gender normative group) than they do butches.

It's NOT a privilege to expect people to get your pronoun right. It's NOT a privilege to be offended when people you've corrected umpteen times just sit and 'sigh' and shrug it off and whatever you when they PURPOSELY use whatever pronoun makes THEM comfortable as a means to erase you.


Dylan

And here's something else.

No one is *attacking* femmes

No one is putting *more burden* on femmes to remember something

Personally, I see this behavior MORE from femmes than I do butches. Other butches have stated the same thing. Some femmes have stated the same thing.

In a previous post, I mentioned a party and FIB who kept referring to MIB butches as 'she'. The FIB butch was constantly referred to as 'he'. When she stated it was disrespectful to FIBs to use 'he', and that it didn't create a 'welcoming' atmosphere for FIBs, she was told not to come back...that the party was indeed 'welcoming' to all. Another FIB was told the same thing when she complained about it. Subsequent FIB butches who brought up the same thing were also not 'welcomed' back, and they were in fact, mocked for saying it wasn't welcoming to FIBs. So, FIBs are expected to conform or be excommunicated from the group? NOT ONLY are they expected to be mindful of MIB's pronouns, they're also expected to accept being he'd. If they don't conform, they're not welcome to return?

And yet, somehow, we're being told 'femmes are being punished more than butches who 'screw up'...really? Because butches who don't comply aren't welcome in the (so called) 'community'.

I've watched for many years as new butches who started as she end up becoming he...because they know if they don't comply, they'll be ousted from the group.

Saying anything about this issue brings either a 'sigh and a shrug with a giggle and a whatever', or a 'don't come back'.

And to be 100% clear, I, personally, am NOT talking about honest mistakes. I, personally, am talking about PURPOSEFUL, INTENTIONAL misassignment of pronouns. I have a feeling that's what other butches are talking about also. If someone new 'she's' me, I'm likely to correct them, and move on. If they continue to do it, we're gonna have some words. If they switch up my pronoun depending on what conversation they're having, because they either do or don't want to be outed, or whatever other lame excuse they come up with, we're not going to be speaking anymore.


Dylan

I wouldn't find it necessarily emasculating

I would find it intentionally transphobic


Not That You Asked Me, But That's The Word I Would Use,
Dylan

What would you find it as if the person in question was not trans?

Yeah, I think the underlying issues around intentionally using the incorrect pronouns are misogyny and/or transphobia.

Since I go by she no one can "she me," but I have had people who were unhappy with me talk about how you're not really butch, you don't know how to repair things, you're too sensitive blah blah that' s not butch. When they were happy with me I was oh so butch, such a stud, etc.

I also feel it is misogynistic to have the default for butch be He/Hy. I think it's saying women really can't be butches. It's also something that many of us who were online on another website found as the cultural norm and sometimes old habits are hard to break, However it doesn't mean we can't change or have to put up with them just because they are deeply entrenched.

Personally, and this is just me me me, I find it transgendered phobic. And I find it so, because we live in a world in which ANYONE who steps outside of the gender conformity is met with harsh consequences. This is why I personally, make a huge distinction between transgender and transsexed. ANYONE stepping out of 'this is what girls do, and this is what boys do" is met with name calling (including 'he-she'), threats, pokes, jabs, and a 'shoving' back into conformity through a number of different routes...including intentional misuse of pronouns.

"Well, if you want to look/act like a man, I'm going to treat you like a man"

"If you want to be a man so bad..."

What would YOU call it if I continually and purposefully called you, "he"?


Dylan

I find it unfortunate that we've spiraled into a discussion of what word SuperFemme -should- have used, when it's clear and established that her intent/meaning was spot-on. It sounds like semantics to me.

We all already know what she meant, as she's had to explain herself over and over again. Why not just go ahead and accept her original comment AS SHE MEANT IT and move on? I think it's just so shitty that she's been made to feel as though she should apologise because the interpretation of a word that she had is different from that of (some) other people.

My context is much MUCH broader than you are aware of Dylan, and has zip to do with femmes being attacked. In much of the world, the very idea of getting to assert one's gender is so beyond the pale that its unthinkable. Asserting one's sexuality, orientation, etc can result in imprisonment, rape, or death. So yes, the fact that we are having any kind of discussion about asserting our preferred gender pronouns is a privilege.

And by-the-way, there are femmes that prefer pronouns other than "she" and their assertion is also privileged. Every single one of us here, femme, butch, trans, male, female, has the pronoun-assertion privilege that I am referring to. This exists alongside the ongoing issues of sexism and misogyny that also get played out here (and have, I believe, a particular impact on butch women). It's not an either/or thing.

conformity = crap
 

I agree 100% that it's a matter of internalized homophobia (except in the cases of transfolks when it's a blatant form of transphobia)


Dylan

No it isn't the same conversation at all (in red, above). I can't speak for anyone else in terms of the posts, but, there is something going on here. I know I came back to the thread and posted my last post due to my tummy knotting some about blame or perceived blame of femmes concerning use of pronouns. That is the reason I posted about the butch organization as an example of disrespect of identifications even though it was about hy and hym. To me, it's about pronouns, not which ones.

I have had other butches call me he, etc., outside of the site. I correct them, too. Sometimes I get weird looks as if I am demoting myself! I can't tell you how many times I have gotten, but, you are so masculine. WTF??? yes, and its feminine-masculinity that I am very proud of.

I have to say that as much as I love the B-F dynamic and have met some great people here (and on the old site), I often feel put down for being female-identified. But it goes beyond butch- I have found this community to just be one of the most anti-woman/female communities and sexist I have ever been acquainted with. I am speaking more to off-line situations as I have found online members that are not like this and obviously we gravitate toward each other- both butches & femmes. This hurts a lot because I am butch and I am not trans, either. I don't fit in the lesbian community really. I used to until I accepted and gained comfort with my butch identity far later than most). Although, I do know a group within tthe lesbian community I am around that is very accepting of my being a butch and preferring femmes overall (the person's character is what really counts with me in terms of romantic relationships and it seems like femmes come in every type!). this is within our queer dance community here in the Bay Area.

So, yes, this is a conversation to have, I think because you are not the only femme contributing here that has felt something is amiss. That is reason enough! Besides, I'll learn something, I always do and the fact of the matter is that I have not lived my entire life as a butch.... or a lesbian. And it seems like its a subject that can be covered by all butches and our Trans/IG members.

So, I say put the question(s) right on out there!

PS- I know Bully and I just don’t believe she meant those statements from a place of negativity- but she will have to answer for herself.

Yes, I agree with this post and your other one AtLast. Femininity is viewed as negative.

I think it is very important to examine the language, and underlying attitudes, that is used for describing butches and women overall. No one here is placing blame on any one particular group of people (i.e. femmes) or something one particular person said.

There is this subtle, and many times not so subtle message, within butch femme communities that if you are male identified or you are butch (no matter how you identify) that the worse thing in the world is to be female and a woman. That and internalized homophobia is where we got to the male defaults in the first place. It actually has nothing to do with male identified butches at all.

Why do people use terms like emasculate and feminize (which I hear coming from butches and trans men just as much as femmes) when male identified butches and trans men's pronouns, gender or sexual boundaries are not respected? Your identity and boundaries are not being respected for who you are, but it's not a crime to be a woman. It's transphobia and misogyny at work and just plain disrespect to you as a person. I'd like more male identified people and others when they see these forms of behavior call that out instead of getting insulted that people are trying to emasculate them or feminize them (treat them like a "woman").

How can someone emasculate or feminize someone by how they refer to them or how someone is touched? I don't believe the way someone refers to you or touches you "feminizes" or "masculinizes" (we only hear about "feminizes") you. Your femininity and masculinity is yours. You own it.

I am a stone butch and my boundaries and sexual preferences have absolutely nothing to do with not wanting to be "feminized." When one particular ex of mine (who isn't on this website or last website) tried to say I wasn't butch when she was mad I told her flat out- I am butch and you can't take that away from me.

There is lots and lots of anti-woman language and attitudes in our culture. Unfortunately it is very evident in butch femme culture as well. Everyone's gender, pronouns and sexuality should be respected, but it is not a horrible thing to be a woman and butch women embrace their masculinity just as male identified butches do.

Yes, and the main reason for my having to apply so much of my spiritual beliefs to butch identity actually stems from this as well as the limitations of the English language. Yikes, and my very broken Italian and spanish does not help either! Two-Spirit, some Pagan ideology as well as Jungian psychology, along with Eastern philosophies seem to give me better balance personally as a butch. I wish I had talent with languages, as I believe this would help.

Nope... no one can take butch identity from anyone or femme identity Just wish we would leave the patriarchal men/male/masculine as supreme behind... sort of like the mix, myself and prefer equity in all things. Just what fits for me.

i like lookin' at butch's boobs and i am very much amazed on the way they hide it, just sayin' ... (f)

Weather im called him,hy or she dosent make a bit of diffrents to me,I know who I am and the direction im going.Now at work these last eight months many folks have slowly began to call me Mrs.Mike insted of Mrs.Mary,at first they had no idea what to call me so I just went with the flow cause I figured it would be a bit of a stretch to get the temanology down for so many of them as they are way older and some very confused.Some of my co workers didnt want to cause a rift but I took the same approach and its working out ok even tho i have had a couple who really finaly pushed the wrong button and got burned for it..one got reported the other got told off...not on company propeprty but just the same I made my point.Even tho now and again it gets a bit sticky I just go with the folw somemore.The way I see it is its not giveing in to the establishment,its dealing with life as it comes.My friend,family and he ppl who I feel are important to me know the way to the world I live in and how it really is away from work and are ok with it.The only place I have problems is at the pool hall,thete is a certan section of ppl who will get get my dander up a bit whats said about how I express my gender choices and expression.These I am very carefull about cause they are the one who will, at some point become a bigger problem.