I, too, know my share of Femme Tops/Daddys. Gee, I even resembled that at one point in my journey; however removed it is from my life today.

Again, my experiences with M/s couples who are 24/7, part of the power exchange is that the "s" willingly consents to giving up autonomy.

I merely brought this up as an example of how we (the collective femme population) might have gotten to this point. This place where we are examining who and what we are and where we choose to carve out our niche in our worlds.

I appreciate the different experiences and the opportunity to see the world through others' eyes.

The way BSDM comes in to play for me is that if I am around anyone from the B/F community and someone orders their partner to do something for them (example from Arwen) it is difficult to know when it's a BDSM thing or a really bad manners sexist thing.

Also, in my area, it is hella shocking for a Femme to be a Top or have a dick....another thread....

On to another subject....

OK, so something strange happened last week. A friend told me that his G/F thinks Cynthia (my Butch G/F) is soooo much more intelligent, and it's so great to be able to talk just to her about intelligent things.....blah blah. Another friend said that people automatically assume Cynthia is more intelligent because she is more masculine and men are automatically supposed to be smarter. WTFFFFFFFFFFF??????

Then, chatting with another friend this weekend, I mentioned how differently I dress when I do or do not have a G/F. How when I am single I would never go to the bar in a dress and heels, because I need to look more in control. WTFFFFFFFFFFFF?

Do I maybe use Cynthia's masculinity as a shield?
Do I dumb it down around people when we are together and let her be the smart one?
Do I just look dumb?
What does this mean?

:wtf::wtf::wtf::wtf:

Is this reaction and my desire to tell everyone who has the biggest dick in our house, my inner 16 year old boy having a tantrum?

My Femme is intelligent and wears a big blue opalescent dick.

I think (and I could be wrong) that Christie was saying that a strong woman can choose to be "chattel" in a BDSM setting.

I also can see the problem with the word "chattel" and (for me), the word "slave". There is so much negative history intertwined with those words that I wince every time I see or hear them. However, some of the strongest women I know use and embrace those words in a BDSM setting.

And as I sit here..

I can't think of one slave I know

who is not strong

not one..

:blah:

Me either.

Has anyone here said that? I was just agreeing that some of the language used, taken out of context can seem to be something it is not.

Like if (to use Arwen's example) Goofy and Blush had agreed prior to the party that Blush was Goofy's slave for the evening, it would not be sexist if Goofy ordered Blush to bring him a beer.

PS. My apologies If I sounded like I was :)

Kosmo, thank you for that. I appreciate the support.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{e}}}}}}}}}}} You know I love you, darlin, and I admire your mind intensely. I recognize what you want from the thread, and I heard you saying you didn't want this to be personal between you and Kosmo.

I dunno how Kosmo took it, but reading your post, it felt personal to me. Please let me explain why?

You said in the beginning of your post that Kosmo's choice to post confused you. Two things stand out for me. The first is, early in the thread we as a group said Butch/Trans input was welcome, and we engaged in conversations with the Butches and Transmen who posted. The second is, Blush asked Kosmo a direct question; she specifically asked for that post. Wouldn't have ignoring her been a subtle form of silencing her? It would certainly have been utterly rude!

What bothers me now is that to me, personally, it seems like Kosmo has been silenced--and not just Kosmo, but by extension all the Butches/Transmen in this thread. I read all those posts saying "why are we always the ones who are "supportive"? Why can't our partners be supportive?" here is a masculine person being supportive, answering a question asked by someone in the community.... but the response we give is "please don't."

I fully admit this is simply how I read it. Maybe I'm the only one who sees it that way, and if so, well, I apologize for derailing the thread.

I just know that I do not live in a vacuum and I cannot be authentically me without deeply examining all the parts of my life.... and half the examining comes from without, from testing my own thoughts, perceptions, and opinions up against those of other people. The people I value the most for that examining are always the people in my own community, whatever their identities might happen to be... I am looking always for the thoughts which shed light on my soul, and I find them as often from Butches and Transmen as from Femmes. I don't wish for any of us to be silenced.

Please know that I understand your goal for the thread is to have a deep conversation among Femmes; I appreciate your willingness to shepherd this convo... but if Butch/Trans voices are not welcome as part of that conversation, then I think we should be really clear and say so outright to everyone, and we should as a group stop inviting their participation.

*wry smile* I would say that since the very definition of Butch (unless we changed it again and someone forgot to send me the memo) is "Female Masculinity," that yes, Butch equals masculine to some degree. And I have seen this before, June, but in a sad way, Femmes deciding that since they are not stereotypical Good Girls, nor even stereotypical Good Women, that they must therefore not be Femme, must have been mistaken all those years, must not ever have been Femme, must be Butch instead.

Binaries that have no elastic to them make me sad. Why does it have to be either/or, and so narrowly defined? But that's what society teaches/preaches.

Only when you take it, darlin. Only when you decide that you, too, have the same value and worth as any other human being. Only when you break through the bonds of society's conditioning and insist, not just to everyone you have already taught to devalue you, but to yourself--for you are the one who devalues yourself to begin with--that your time is your own.

If you have small children, you may have to pay for that time with cash, to a babysitter. Think about how much you might pay a babysitter... and what that says about your estimate of your own value as a human being. I find most Femmes to be absolutely priceless, value beyond measuring... but someone who is struggling with the whole idea may only believe she herself is worth that five or ten dollars she pays a babysitter.

Someone who cannot "justify" paying the babysitter at all? Actions speak louder than words: she believes she is worthless.

Whether one has children or not, it's worth thinking about. What message would you want to give to [your] children about the value of adult women? Are they intrinsically priceless? Or are they barely worth the money it would take to pay a babysitter?

This is a good point, christie, and I ran into it repeatedly when I was newbie to the b-f world. Because I was new and also not part of the BDSM world, I didn't recognize for a couple of years that the attitudes I ran into were not typical of "Butches" but were, in fact, a subculture. Looking back, I think some of the Butches who were not part of that subculture were influenced by it anyway, because I found the attitudes pervasive for a while.

*reminds you* "bit" is NOT about pony play, "bit" is NOT about pony play....

I utterly HATE it when people assume the more masculine one is automatically the brains of the outfit. [My screen name came from that.] I'm not gonna be with anyone who is not majorly intelligent, since intelligence is a big turn-on for me, but really now.... I am more than just nice. I am more than just a Good Girl.

My intelligent partner has some pretty high standards of his own in the Intelligence Department. He is not with me because I'm glamorous, yanno? *eyeroll from the Homespun girl*

Maybe... I know that in situations of danger or possible discomfort, I use Gryph's masculinity as a shield.

I also know that I use my own clothing choices as a shield.

I also use just being partnered as a shield.

I would never go into a bar wearing "flirty feminine" clothes if I did not want to come out of the bar on someone's arm. That would just be asking for hassles, yanno? But if I am with my partner, I can dress any way I choose; it's safe.

I think you answered your own question. It is your Inner Femme asserting Herself, claiming Her own power.

Dear Poodle,

Please tell June that I am "not Butch enough" to completely dispense with question marks.

I would tell her myself, but I am afraid I might offend Kat.

Sincerely,
Cheeky Femme

:raspberry:

Bit Bit, you make so much sense!

I am so laughing about you and your pony play! *grin*

I do the question mark thing too. UGH.

The what we wear to the bar thing makes sense. It is totally asking for a hassle to wear something girly to the bar alone...so I resort to hanging my keys off my Levis, as if to say..."whatch, it I can poke your eyes out if you hassle me."

and Intelligence?

My Femme is smart.

So there!

:spider:

My Femme wants to talk about her "good girl" but is feeling emotionally spent today so is marking her place instead.

You made me cry. Right here at my desk. In front of everyone. And I dont care who thinks its messy.

Or maybe the situation made me cry. Lemme see what I can muster. (I always want to write "mustard" here because it's funnier but the Virgo in me cringes when I fuck up euphamisms)

Today I am sitting here at my desk at work where I really should be working but I am instead swirling in some heavy emotions and doing a lot of internal processing. I am listening to Angie Aparao on my ipod and he's doing a great cover of "Champagne Supernova" and maybe the pitch of his voice was just right or maybe it's the melody or the words but as I was reading your post, Adele, he sang the line "Where were you while we were getting high?" and he took the last note way, WAY out. The kind of sound where your heart is stretched thin like a piece of pink bubblegum and it feels the emotion of want and need and sound congealed behind notes and pulse.
So I cried. Because I am overwhelmed. Because I am sad. Because I am resolute. Because I am afraid. Because I am no longer afraid.

I have spent most of last night and today writing my resignation letter from a group that I have belonged to for 4 years. A group that has done important work that is specific to my way of being that I have always felt incredibly strongly about supporting. I came to a place at some point in the last several months where I realized that I had to step away. I came to a place over the last couple of weeks where I knew that stepping away would be scary. Over the last couple of days, I realized it would be painful. Over the last several hours I have felt a range of emotions from anger to resolve to sadness to something that feels like mourning.

I have been all at once afraid of the reactions of my fellow committee members and resolute to not care. I have struggled with being authentic and direct without being unecessarily hurtful. I have thought hard about my involvement with the organization and what it will mean to the friendships that exist inside of and outside of that space when I leave. My leaving centers around some ugly stuff. Mostly stuff that is outside of my control. Mostly stuff that is hurtful to the scope of the organization.
I am weary y'all. Weary to the core of my being.
I have for so long operated by trying to be authentic and honest but also on some level ,with a fear of confronting. Its hard. The "good girl" in me who says to "sit down, keep silent, smooth your dress, dont make waves, dont tell what you know" is very much at odds with the spiritual being in me that says "speak your truth, speak it clearly, demand transparency, demand honesty, stand up for truth".
This conflict has created a weird dichotomy in me in the last 2 days. One where I want to just vomit up a bunch of stuff in my resignation letter to show that I am leaving because things got too fucked up for me to be part of. Part of me wants to "go quietly into that good night". Part of me feels that either of these options would not be good. Part of me knows that there will be huge backlash for calling uncomfortable things out and shining a light on ugly truths.

I guess I came to this thread because I have often felt such peace in the arms of other Femmes. Such understanding. Such graceful beauty and love. And I need those things today to help the girl in me who is scared to speak to find her voice. And I needed to remember that I am not a horrible person for seeking the truth. Thank you, Adele.

I will be creating a new journey for myself by leaving this organization and speaking out. There will be broken friendships and pain and I dont want to be silent out of fear anymore. I am asking for some love here. Its often been hard for me to ask for help when I need it. So, this is me, asking you, my Femme sisters, to send me some courage.

This might be out of place here. I apologize for taking up space if it is.

Much love.