As the OP, I had no attachment to what was discussed in this thread, when I created it. New members complained they were having difficulty seeing the lesbians in our community. The conversation has meandered here and there, and more than likely will continue to do so. At present, a serious discussion about Butch Voices seems to be on the table. There have been other threads created to specifically discuss Butch Voices, so currently the relationship this thread has with them is the same topic.

Yellow Band, I created this thread, I'm not interested in posting in it at all, although I do enjoy reading it from time to time. If folks would quit asking questions of the OP—me, I wouldn't have to. I would have explained this to you via private message, but apparently you do not receive private messages.

Okay, so while Butch Voices is the topic, no off-hand remarks about leaping lesbians should be made. No unrelated banter exchanged.

I'm not necessarily asking you, Liam. I'm checking in on what I'm hearing.

For the record, once upon a time, I identified as a lesbian—I was one proud dyke, and one proud butch.

And Liam, your point is? Once I was a straight girl.....read what I wrote....I don't care, I was giving the cliff notes to the thread......

Posts come and go. People get on a topic and see certain posts that they want to reply to. Other posts sometimes get "lost" in the midst. It happens to everyone. It has happened to me more times than I can count. That's why you just keep posting, especially if you want to be heard. Eventually, those posts won't go unnoticed.



I seriously doubt that extent of dramatic action is necessary on this thread or any other. No one is out to lynch anyone, nor was I out to lynch you. It's conversation/discussion/banter. What I assume you wanted from your posts, hence your posting in the first place.

I can reassure you that no one is getting reimbursed for any expenses outside of Board work. The percentages are available to you on the P&L. But I am happy to go into further detail if needed. Any Board I have ever been on has reimbursed (fed, provided for room and board, etc for Board retreats and efforts.) There has been no additional support to Board members on the BV Board.

And, June, I know you hold no issue with me personally. I hope you know I review all receipts and hold them on file.... I am now nurturing a new set of eyes so it is more than my review and the Boards. Please know that this is a new organization... policies and procedures take time to develop, etc. The initial national conference was only 9 months after the concept was developed. The organization has come a long way... and has a lot to do still. And everyone I know involved is working hard to create an organization that has impact for the butch/stud/aggressive community.

[quote=Chazz;388547]The problem, as I see it, is that the high echelon of "Butch Voices" has a different world view and agenda than woman identified butches. How could they not? It's okay; they're entitled.

Furthermore, the "Butch Voices" folks are speaking a different language. They're speak

Christie, I certainly didn't intend to offend anyone with my comments.

However....this current conversation about Butch Voices and the political, gender, community organizing, "speaking for others" and all of the other serious topics being discussed is happening in a thread entitled "Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians..." and now the conversation (as I understand it) is all about the inclusion of transpeople in a historically butch venue.

I would argue that the current conversation is the derail....and I'd like to get back to folks on the site stepping up and saying "hi, I'm a lesbian."

My description of myself is actually on point....and my light-hearted approach at the serious topic of saying....I am sick to fucking death of everyone trying to define how everyone else "should" be and what we should call ourselves and if we're femme enough or butch enough or what those terms even mean.

i define me.

You define you.

I say let anyone who claims the title butch define it for themselves.

And, just for me and I know I'm more than a little toey right now....I'm going back to my light-hearted lesbian leaping, in a thread with the title of the same name.

Thanks,
Jo, the leaping, cannon-balling, tough as nails and polka dot wearing lesbian

I, for one, am glad there is a thread where I can once again be reminded that I am a Lesbian, feminist, femme.

Thats strange. I posted, but now the post is messed up and a 'thanks' is even gone. I'll see if i can remember it:

Is there some cultural/regional/ethnic aversion to the word "lesbian" among "the deciders" of BV? Anyone have any insight on this? I rarely see terms like "aggressive lesbian" and "stud lesbian" so i am curious. Is there a cultural reason that the word lesbian is being avoided? The "masculine of center" terminology seems like a way to take the sex out of it. Who wants that?

There's the idea that goes "means are the ends, and the journey shapes the destination". I think BV won't end up where it (or it's public relations firm) thinks they are going if their processs continues like they've handled this. Working against oppression requires naming and challenging oppression. BV is acting like its found a "market" in appropriating the word butch (women who continue to be oppressed), giving the word a new definition (one that they feel comfortable with), then having their "work" be paid for by the oppressed people. That is decidedly not liberation, but it might be "intellectual property".

I love the word "lesbian" and all the danger it implies. I'm so glad BV has given us lesbians the opportunity to be seen as dangerous once again. People should go if they want, but I'd rather be fighting oppression than "branding" it. And I'd rather be having hot lesbian sex.

I am mystified about why BV would jettison the word "butch" because it's been hurled at people in a derogatory or humiliating manner. Haven't most words related to queerdom been used that way? Like dyke, faggot, lezzie, the word queer itself?

But I guess screaming, "Fucking masculine-of-center!" doesn't quite work -- so maybe they have a point...? :blink:

The more things change-the more they remain the same
 

I thought given both threads, a little herstory might give perspective. For those of us that already lived through this in the second wave of feminism-it really just is the same issue of inclusion:

"In 1969, National Organization for Women president Betty Friedan had referred to growing lesbian visibility as a "lavender menace" and fired openly lesbian newsletter editor Rita Mae Brown. Furthermore, in 1970 Betty Friedan engineered the expulsion of lesbians, including local president Ivy Bottini, from NOW's New York chapter. In 1970, at the Congress to Unite Women, on the first evening when all four hundred feminists were assembeled in the auditorium, the lights were shut off, and when they were turned on again twenty women wearing t-shirts that read "Lavender Menace" stood at the front of the room, facing the audience. One of the women then read their group's paper "The Woman-Identified Woman", which was the first major lesbian feminist statement. The group, who later named themselves "Radicalesbians", were among the first to challenge the heterosexism of heterosexual feminists and to describe lesbian experience in positive terms."

Thank you. Reminders of why lesbians felt removed from the national feminist/ equal rights struggle are always a good thing. As I have thought about this thread the film If These Walls Could Talk Part 2 has come to mind a few times. Here is a description from Wiki regarding a section of that film that directly relates to this:

"1972
Linda (Michelle Williams), a young student, now shares the house with three friends, all lesbians. They face conflict with the feminist group they are part of when the other women do not want to include lesbian issues despite the fact that Linda and her friends helped to found the group and fought for free contraception on campus with their straight friends.
At a lesbian bar they have not been to before, they are surprised and disappointed to see women apparently fulfilling traditional butch and femme roles. They laugh at Amy (Chloë Sevigny), a young butch woman who is wearing a tie. Amy asks Linda to dance but she refuses while her friends are still there. The others soon leave and Linda stays behind and dances with Amy. Later, Amy gives Linda a ride home on her motorcycle and they kiss. Linda invites Amy to return the next day.
The next day Linda and the others are arguing with a woman from the feminist group when Amy arrives. Linda is embarrassed and is short with Amy who quickly leaves. Linda's friends tease her about Amy and question how they can be taken seriously as feminists if they associate with people like Amy. They cannot understand why a woman would dress like a man when they have fought so hard to escape such stereotypical roles.
Linda goes to Amy's house and apologizes. They sleep together. The next morning Linda sees a picture of Amy as a child, dressed like a boy. She asks Amy if Amy is supposed to be the man and Linda the woman. Amy says no and accuses Linda of being afraid that people will know what she is if she is seen with Amy.
Amy goes to Linda's house for dinner. Linda urges her friends to give Amy a chance but an awkward evening deteriorates when Linda's friends laugh at Amy and try to make her change her clothes. Amy leaves, upset. Linda follows her home and tells her that she was never ashamed of Amy, but only of herself. They reconcile."

If you have never seen the film, I highly recommend it. It has three parts, the above section is the second segment and one of the best filmed ( even if it is fictional) scenarios based on this divisive era.

Regarding what is and what is not "appropriate" content for this particular thread, I feel that it is pretty open to interpretation. The title and opening ( thank you Liam for creating it!) leaves ample room for ANY discussion Lesbians may want to engage in among one another. To conclude it is for just a role call ( hi, my name is ______ and I am a lesbian) is ok, if that is as far as you ( the reader) wish to take it. I have found that generally, after the howdys have taken place, other conversations will follow. I am pretty ok with seeing where the conversations go. It is how we grow.

Fantastic film. I can still see Chloe Sevigney's face when they try to dress her up femme.

I remember it all very well! And now, I am a "woman identified feminist butch!"

Something I must bring up is that it was those very 1970's feminist activist lesbians, that brought gender and transgender theory out of the closet! Put it in the public eye. It always amazes me how historical facts get re-written. Every transgendered person can thank a Second Wave feminist for the entire emergence of gender identification variables, political view formation, services to and for, entry of laws protecting transpeople, etc. to the very lesbian feminists that so many, refer to with nothing but ignorance about historical facts.

Of course, feminism and gender theory must progress, stretch, and become relevant to each generation- but misrepresenting or vilifying its roots isn't growth- it is simply bigotry of another kind.

Ignorance remains bliss..........