If people want to view god as a force or a person, that's fine. I think religion does fine if it doesn't try to answer scientific questions. Religion gets itself in trouble when it tries to answer questions better left up to science. The problem is that a world where there is an activist, interventionist, creator deity is going to look *very* different than one that is the result of blind and impersonal forces.

I'm not a theist and I don't have a lot of kind words for theism--but I recognize that humanity is stuck with religion and thus theism for any foreseeable future. So I'm trying to be at peace with that. However, I will demarcate and defend the boundaries of science against attempts by religious people to make science conform to their parochial, sectarian interests. That's not what science is for. Science is for discovery and understanding. Most modern science is complicated enough that cluttering the subject up with religious beliefs that must be conformed to. (For example, creationism being taught as if it were a viable alternative theory to naturalistic evolution when it most manifestly is not.)


Cheers
Aj

of course he does ... it is a threat to (his) the order of things ...

The Principal called in this group of parents for a meeting with us after three weeks of my son being told that his Mom was an Evil Whore who was going straight to Hell and that he was a Faggot going to the same place. Day after day.

We met with the parents in hopes that we could quell the problem, but their words for us were that we were an abomination and sick and a walking representation of Satan at that school. (public school). One parent even attacked my son at a school rummage sale telling him that he was a worthless piece of shit and a "waste of faggot space on this earth".

The Principal made it clear that further words would result in expulsions and suspensions. So parents went to the school board. The school board decided that a mandatory tolerance workshop for both parents and students was in order (teachers as well), and it did wonders. We found out that there are three other kids who have same sex parents at our school, and now that they all know of each other they have comfort in numbers.

It's been some times now, and the issue in no longer an issue. I have to say that the kids who were being persecuted handled it with great dignity and grace and I dare anyone to say that kids from same sex households aren't healthy and socially responsible little people.

I agree with some of your post, AJ. However, as with many things, change is afoot. There is a Center for Science and Religion in Berkeley, and similar institues elsewhere. People are talking WITH each other and listening.

Certainly things are changing but here's the thing, Wax, religion would--in my opinion--be FAR better off if it fled as far away from subjects covered by the sciences as fast as possible. Let's say, for instance, that someone is arguing that evolution is the way that God created all the diverse life forms. Okay, as far as it goes. But then some nasty biologist like me comes along and asks the question "what does God have against caterpillars?" The question is relevant because there's a species of wasp where the female stings a caterpillar which paralyzes it but doesn't kill it. She then lays her eggs in the body of the *still living caterpillar*. When the eggs hatch the larvae eat their way out. Caterpillars can feel pain. Imagine being alive and being eaten, quite literally, from the inside out.

Now, if both the wasp and caterpillar are the results of blind forces that don't *care* about either then, as gruesome as it is, it at least makes sense. But if an intelligent entity *designed* things that way, that's messed up! At least it could have made caterpillars incapable of feeling pain. That would at least show some mercy.

There's a scene in Terry Pratchett's book, "Unseen Academicals" where the Patrician, Vetinari--who is ruthless and Machiavellian--relates a story from his youth where he sees a mother otter catch a salmon, the mother otter splits the salmon open and eggs spill out which are then devoured by the baby otters. At the end of this story, he says, "if there is a divine being, it is our job to be his moral superiors".

The universe is too heartless, too pitiless, too completely comfortable with misery, pain and fear to be the product of any entity that could be called 'loving' or 'kind' or 'merciful' by even the most generous definition. Think about the last second of a gazelles life just before it is brought down by a leopard. Imagine its fear, it's pain. Now, imagine the pain of starving for the lion (and her cubs) if she *doesn't* get the gazelle. No matter what, someone has a horrific experience--either the gazelle dies quickly, painfully and in terror or the lioness and her cubs die slowly, painfully, in a lingering fashion. Religion should want no part of that and would be best served if it didn't try to explain why that happens.

Cheers
Aj

waxnrope...........I was not directing my comments about hate to you personally. I don't believe you said anything about me and hate.........:hangloose:

---
Aj......I have hope that theists and scientists can come together and stop this adversarial either/or rhetoric. Change comes mostly slowly as time and evolution teach. There are baby steps being made.

Although........laughin.........Stephen Hawkings has certainly made a whole bunch of people go :shocking: . I am actually gonna go by the book. I will have to check local booksellers first..........if they don't have it, then it's order from Powell's.

(I don't buy from chain bookstores....one form of social justice that is easy to do :toypony:)

Family indicted after thrice kidnapping gay relative

By JPOST.COM STAFF
09/02/2010 13:41

The crimes were committed after victim published pictures in drag on Facebook; he was chained and locked up by relatives.

A family from the Arab village of Tamra, including one minor, have been indicted on Thursday for kidnapping a relative after finding pictures of him in drag on Facebook.

The indictment includes contact in order to commit a crime, kidnapping with intent to imprison, kidnapping with intent to threaten, imprisonment, threats and attacks, all because of the man's sexuality and photographs he published online, in which he is wearing a bridal gown.

The crimes were allegedly committed four times over the past four months, in order to "defend the family's honor," according to the indictment.

The first kidnapping attempt occurred in May. The accused told their victim that him mother is sick, and they should visit her in Tamra. When he refused, they dragged him into the car, and brought him to his parents' home, where they beat and slapped him, tied him up, and locked him in the room. The victim's brother released him, after the victim told a friend to call the police.

He was attacked again at a family wedding, during which he ran into the woods and did not come out until police came. Three weeks before the wedding, his mother called and warned him to remove the pictures in which the victim is in drag, saying "the family will come get you, and that'll be the end of you."

On August 23, the family members came to the victim's Tel Aviv apartment, sprayed pepper spray in his face, and pushed him into a car that was waiting for him outside. They tied his hands with belts, blindfolded him with scotch tape and threatened to stab him if he resists. Once they arrived in Tamra, the accused chained him to a window and locked him in a room.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=186841

I find these kinds of organizations to be very important in combating what I call intellectual benign neglect. Question, question, question... replicate, replicate, replicate!

Accepting anything, including scientific claims, blindly, is not a good thing to me. This certainly bothers me with theism. Without sound research methods and replication of theory, science is not trustworthy either. Put the lack of funding for scientific inquiry in the US in the equation as well as the corporate mega-bucks for certain kinds of scientific inquiry, and there is a big problem. When new research such as this comes out, the first thing I want to know is how it was funded and where.

Unfortunately, there are at times, people behind scientific investigation that are not interested in pure science and have ulterior motives. Seems like that can be said for those in many forms of theology. In fact, there is scientific study into a God Gene that can be viewed as part of this group. On the other hand, that science is revolutionary in terms of neuropsychological interpretation and applications. It has it's place in scientific investigation because science delves into all.

Many scientific discoveries that are simply brilliant have been used in horrible ways- the atomic bomb is certainly one. Reading how Oppenheimer felt about his work and how it ended up being used is very interesting and heartbreaking. The guy had so may other ideas for how this science could be used that would have had such different social consequences that were positive.

For me, a state of spiritual awareness is indeed based upon molecular variables within the bio-neuro- physiological realm of sensation, perception and cognitive underpinnings. Paranormal investigation is something that is advancing in our scientific world and has a place in all of this. I can't define this for anyone else. I don’t even care to.

I do know that accepting science at first glance without checking the methods obtained and not seeing replication is not being a good scientist. If I had done this as a professional, I would have been neglectful as well as unethical. In terms of professional ethics, simply taking scientific research at face value can be a deadly mistake.

Hawkins has demonstrated a history of solid scientific inquiry. He is well respected among his peers (and that is something to consider as well- prominent scientists do exist in an Ivy League elitist vacuum mostly). I will certainly take his theory into consideration. Although, I don't consider creationism to be valid, anyway. I see other applications for what Hawkins is bring to light (no pun intended). But, his work will have to stand the test of time and further scientific study and criticism to earn validity. And Hawkins, as a phenomenal scientist knows this.

This work is a significant contribution in science, but, it needs to be treated as all good science is, with continued and un-biased scientific inquiry. The idea is to build on theory from the past and into the future. That is what good scientist’s do- they keep asking questions and refining their research. Keep going at ideas.

Who knows, Hawkins work might lead to another Scopes Trial and change the course of educational curriculum. I for one wouldn’t mind this at all. I do agree that creationism theory just does not stand as a bona fide theory to be taught in our public schools (public being the operative- let alone separation of church and state).

Montana Tea Party President Condones Violence Against Gays in Facebook Post Supporting Traditional Marriage

http://towleroad.typepad.com/.a/6a00...25fd970c-800wi

This seems to have been posted in late July, but several people have brought it to my attention today. Tim Ravndal, the President of Montana's Big Sky Tea Party Association, expressed his views that marriage should be between a man and a woman in a Facebook posting. The post was in response to an ACLU lawsuit in Montana brought by seven gay couples who want to get married.

Then Ravndal expressed support for a commenter who (in apparent reference to the Matthew Shepard murder) said, "I think fruits are decorative. Hang up where they can be seen and appreciated. Call Wyoming for display instructions."

Answered Ravndal: "Where can I get that Wyoming printed instruction manual?"

In related news, the Montana GOP Platform calls for making homosexual acts illegal

http://www.towleroad.com/2010/09/mon...%23gay+news%29

Springfield Cathedral High School athletic director Christine Judd loses job after same-sex marriage

Published: Thursday, September 02, 2010, 4:41 PM Updated: Friday, September 03, 2010, 9:28 AM
http://media.masslive.com/breakingne...9fa5_large.jpg

Cathedral High School athletic director and dean of students Christine Judd lost her job at the Catholic school after marrying her partner.

SPRINGFIELD - The athletic director at Cathedral High School lost her job this week, saying she was pressured to leave after marrying her female partner in August.

Christine M. Judd, who served as athletic director and dean of students, said she is no longer an employee of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Springfield school system after a meeting Wednesday with administrators of the Catholic high school.

The diocese listed her departure as a resignation, but Judd said she is still exploring her legal options.

“I was given a choice of termination or resignation,” Judd said. “I’m hurt, but I wish nothing but the best for Cathedral, its students, the parents, the athletic teams, administration and faculty. I bleed purple (the school’s color).”

Judd, a Springfield resident, worked for the Catholic school for 12 years, beginning as a science teacher in 1998. She became dean of students six years ago and was given the added duties of athletic director three years ago.

“I married my partner this summer,” Judd said. “I was hoping that my loyalty, my professionalism the last 12 years would supersede the current hypocrisy that has already been shown with the Diocese of Springfield.”

Asked to elaborate on her claim of hypocrisy, Judd said she questions if there are lay persons who work for the Catholic diocese who divorce and remarry without an annulment, or employees who use birth control, or men who have had vasectomies, or individuals who are pro-choice on abortion.

Same-sex marriage became legal in Massachusetts in 2004.

Mark E. Dupont, a spokesman for the Roman Catholic Diocese of Springfield, said Judd did resign, but declined to respond to Judd’s comments, or on the issue of her marriage in August.

Related stories

• Coen: Springfield Diocese should be ashamed

“Because it’s an employment matter, we are not at liberty to discuss the specifics,” Dupont said.


She said state law gives her the right to same-sex marriage, but it is not allowed under diocesan policy, leading to her job loss.

“Cathedral had nothing to do with this,” Judd said. “This was a diocesan decision. In the end, the timing of this issue really affects the kids. That is where it has the most effect.”

Cathedral's website describes Judd as "one of the key members of the faculty and staff who serve as positive role models for the students."
Farrand Violette, who is the new football coach at Cathedral, has been named interim athletic director for the rest of this year, Dupont said. Violette has past experience as an athletic director at the New Leadership Charter School.

No decision has been announced yet regarding the dean of students position.

Judd said her decision to leave the school followed a meeting with the school principal, John Miller, and the business director.

“Without being specific to this matter, it should be clear that all employees of our Catholic schools are made aware of our policies and regulations,” Dupont said. "This includes language that clearly states that whenever by public example, an employee engages in or espouses conduct which contravenes the doctrine and teaching of the Catholic Church, that employee may be subject to disciplinary action. To do otherwise would be in contradiction to the values we believe in and are teaching in these same schools. So while we certainly want to be compassionate and understanding, we must be true to who we are.”

“We are certainly thankful to Ms Judd for her past service at Cathedral High School and wish her the best in the future,” Dupont said.

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.s..._high_sch.html

And like Ms. Judd said, they DO NOT go after the employees who are divorced, or living together, use birth control etc. It is only members of the LGBT group that lives openly that these Catholic Boards go after.

right.
but all they do is transfer the priests who sexually abuse parishoners.
they are not defrocked, are they? at least i know that in the past the
diocese would just move the offender from place to place with no warning
to the new place of what may come to pass.

it is EXACTLY these kinds of situations that make the GLBTQ community wary of religious organizations.

Toughie, c'mere and let me give you a butch hug :)
I saw the announcement, and am interested in what he had to say. Let's face it, no one is likely to change their podition, but having respect for one another's ideas, sharing our stories like SF, that shit is holy to me. So thanks.

AtLast, I can't quote your post on my phone ... its too long :( ... but want to thank you for putting things in perspective.

Don't get me started on the absolution of science, and the oops! never mind, or atrocities commuted in the name of. Cornell West does a masterful job with respect to race, for one. Michel Foucault and Anon are others. There is a history of abuse in most, if not all, disciplines. How do we elicit thought and behavior change so that we all flourish is, IMHO, the key.

Each of us posting these past pages have the "good" in mind. We need be more than tolerant, because tolerance implies superiority. We need to agree that there are some points that we do not agree, some points that, because our learning is narrowly focused, we don't understand. We need to realize that our experience of a specific area may be true for that instance, but not expect everything within a broader umbrella may be true as well. The contradictions are inherent in nature.

Dang phone won't allow multiple quotes, and I apologize for this as well as any typos that make you go "huh" because there is a self correcting thingy.

SF, thanks for posting. You have, in the way only you can accomplish, presented the various sides of these discussions through your own lived experiences. I'd like to say more, but won't press my luck on the phone in one long post. It's never let me go so long before.

AJ, yore post is brilliant. However, Process Theology, started by a physicist, Alfred Lord Whitehead, says simply that G-d does not intervene because G-d cannot. G-d, Process Theologians say, acts by luring us to do good. We have free will, however, and can chose not to listen ...

Ok, I'm gone ...

Hawking writing religious texts now? How strange...

Now that he's disproved the existence of god maybe he will disprove the existence of bigfoot or the loch ness monster.

:koolaid:

Terry...............<<<<doing the dual butch hand grasp to the chest with other hand pat on the back>>>>> We need to have coffee soon.

Tolerance. I have always had trouble with being 'tolerated'. It somehow implies something is wrong, but can be dealt with at an arm's length.

Acceptance. That is what I strive for and what will move evolution of humans forward. Acceptance implies the concept of 'Namaste' or 'I See You'.

I hope not - then I'd have to cry :)

*chuckle* Don't cry! Here's some chocolate: :chocolate:

I have not read this new book. What I get from the one big quote I read and could not quickly find is this: There is no NEED for a creator diety for the universe to come into existence. What I read does not make a comment on the existence of a deity, but rather comments on the need of a deity.

I await further comment on this new book until I have read it. My understanding is the book is NOT about religion. Rather it is about how the universe came into existence. Context is everything and he certainly could have said a creator deity does not exist.

ps............I hate koolaid and I rarely if ever drink it.

Hahahahahahahahaha :rofl:

That is certainly been what was done in the past. There are new laws throughout the US now that hold a diocese and church leaders/administrators criminally liable for these acts as well as reporting requirements, especially in religious schools. There "should" be a difference now in terms of reporting and prosecution. Hope so, enough is enough! These steps should have been taken years ago.

Y'all can go on about new laws and a new attitude from the Church in relation to pedophile priest all ya want.......

Truth is the US Church is still sending their 'suspected' pedophile priests to a little retreat up in Northern New Mexico just like they have for years and years. They slowly let them re-enter pastoral duties by letting them loose (alibet part time) in the parishes of NNM. After some time in prayer and fasting and redemption and part time pastoral duties, they are sent back to minister to flocks all over the US..........

NOT ONE DAMN THING HAS CHANGED. The Church pays hush money and continues on.

I went to Mater Dei H.S. in SoCal and watched Father Michael the Principal do atrocious things to students. My parents grounded me when I brought it up.

The day they arrested him years later? I framed the newpaper article and mailed it home.

IMO as long as priests are forced to live a celibate life void of all sexuality the problems are going to keep happening.

I love you so I will not go off like a rocket on you.......I'm not very patient today...............

Pedophilia has nothing to do with celibacy. Rape has nothing to do with celibacy. You cannot make those comparisons. It's like saying homosexuals are pedophiles.

Pedophilia is NOT about lack of sex or marriage. It is far more complicated. Most pedophiles were sexually abused as children.....and many of them abused by pedophile priests and pastors. It is a viscous circle that cannot be stopped by framing the argument around celibacy.

Celibacy and pedophilia are not in any way related.

yeah, you're right and i didn't mean to couch it like that. sorry. can i have popcorn?

i DO think that asking adults to live their entire live as asexual beings is downright nuts though.

somewhere in my brain there is a connection to what happens with these priests and the way that the catholic church makes sex a shameful thing.
(masturbation will make you blind or grow hair on your palms were a few things nuns told us)

i am a recovering catholic and my name is adelita.

adelita my child............<grin>

sex and pedophilia have NOTHING to do with each other........


yes it is entirely shameful that the monotheists have made sex shameful...........all of them have and continue to do so.......

yeah.
so next time you dance w/me would you mind wearing the set of priest frocks i bought on ebay?

and repeating that adelita my child part?

Toughy:

That's how I read Hawking--and that's how I've read most of his other pronouncements on the existence of a god. No one can say that they know there is not a god. I don't know that there isn't one. But when I look around I don't see a need for a god. All the things that we normally attribute to requiring a god--even morality--turn out to not *require* a god. I think that's the point that Hawking is making.

Cheers
Aj

where i get hung up on the higher power thing is this:

having a terminal illness and receiving healing energy from others i have to say that it give me hope. i know that is has an impact on how i get through my next hospitalization or treatment.

maybe it is just energy and not a diety?

i cannot wrap my mind around a diety making people gravely ill and that there is some kind of vetting process when choosing who gets cancer and who gets to be an olympian swimmer?

i may have just confused myself again.

Then what is happening is that the church leaders are not following new laws in new Mexico and the orders that preside there. Although, I think the Catholic church stinks in all of this and I left it long ago, this is a gross over generalization and mistatement of facts.

There have been changes and hopefully, more will come. Here is one example- there are many more.

http://www.examiner.com/christianity...to-authorities

Don't hate on CA's first medical marijuana commercial.
I'm sure the fed's arrested the actors after filming. j/k

It's not just NM Church leaders. Priests from all over the US come to this retreat located in NM. Not all the priests who come to this retreat are pedophiles, but it is well known in NM that there are plenty of priests who are pedophiles sent there to be cured by prayer and confession and redemption.

The feel good story you linked, to me, is just that a feel good story. If the Pope actually did excommunicate pedophiles, the priesthood and his leadership would likely be decimated. Turning them over to legal authorities has not been a pattern of the Church. Settling cases out of court and paying money is the pattern that is still ongoing.

edited to add: the article also reinforces the idea that homosexuality and pedophilia are linked. It also leads one to believe that celibacy has some connection to pedophilia.

Afghani Men Like Young Boys
 

Afghanistan's dirty little secret.
Joel Brinkley
Sunday August 29, 2010
http://sfgate.com.cgi-bin/article.cg...INF21F2Q9H.DTL
For centuries Afghan men have taken boys, roughly 9-15 as lovers.

The link does not work.

I did hear about this. My understanding is that this is common among certain tribes in Afghanistan.....particularly the Pashtun (sp) tribe. The current leader of Afghanistan is a guy named Karzi who is a Pashtun. His brother is a big ole opium drug dealer.

One of the comments I heard was that US soldiers could not in any way interfere with this custom. They have to have a blind eye towards obvious pedophilia. The awful thing is that once these boys become men, they can be killed if they participant in homosexual behaviors with other grown men. Same sex pedophilia is ok, but it is not ok for grown men to have same sex relationships.

Iranian woman on death row to be lashed over photo
 

September 4, 2010
www.thenational.ae
Sakineth Mohammad Ashtiana, an Iranian woman sentenced to death by stoning for adultery has also been sentenced to 99 lashes for a photo of her without a head scarf. The Progressive American Iranian Committee www.iranian-american.com said there are 12 women currently on death row sentenced to be stoned to death for adultery.

while I have learned to interrogate the criticisms of the West with respect to other cultural practices, this is one practice that I find particularly horrific and without excuse. It sled me completely close off. Yet, the thought of invading this country for its alleged WMDs does not light me up either. Ugh.

This caught my attention lastnight. A church in Gainesville, FL are talking of burning the Koran on 9-11. Why would a church burn a religious book?

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpps/new...730-gc_8937270

Not sure what you all think of this, but to me, it is a dumb move.

Zimmy