All hail Mary Daly!

and I call bullshit when I see it...............

I'm gonna get some more popcorn for this! *runs out the courtroom*

I'm in this color - and I am PISSED.

Heart

Kobi...........damn this is getting old

you just dismissed another lesbian, only it's a lesbian of the butch persuasion....only this time it has a transphobic nature to it...........I rarely ever call transphobia............but it's abundantly clear to me now you are of that persuasion.........

get a fucking grip dude.....I am sorry I ever defended you...........you obviously have not learned a damn thing in your time here........

free your mind.....

and just cuz I am in a piling mood........

funny you ignore me........what is it????.......... you can't fathom or respond to a butch who fucked men and liked it and claims lesbian???????????????

I am in red:

reading and understanding are not the same thing....................obviously

truth is fleeting
understanding is growth

oh goody............take your toys and go home...because no one wanted to play by your rules.....

this crap is not even worthy of 'popcorn'.,.............

I feel like doing a "post-by"... This thread is getting more confusing...

Heart, you misread.

I'm not isolated, I have a strong lesbian/Feminist community online and off. I though I was clear about that in my last post????

As to grandiosity, well you're entitled to your opinions, but no, not really. Perhaps you're mistaking a sense of empowerment and incentive with grandiosity, or perhaps, you're administering a slap down. Either way, it's okay.....

But to be clear about the empowerment and incentive.... I think it's time for woman IDed lesbians to get back to basics, to refocus our energies on ourselves, one another and the forces that continue to oppress women. No, that's not separatism, it's self-care. The fact that a statement like that sounds like separatism (albeit a misapprehended, extreme version of separatism) to some (you?), is the problem manifest.

You have used the term "separatism" in my direction before. The inherent put-down down did not go unnoticed. Of more importance, the implied vilification of self-focusing lesbians did not go unnoticed, either. I'm good with the former, the latter not so much.

To be clear Vol. 2.....

I live in the world. I work, socialize, friend with, co-parent, professionally counsel, and LOVE some males. One of my best friends on the planet is a straight, biker dude.... I prefer some men's company to some women's company. So no, this is not about "separatism", wanting to sequester myself away from men, trans people, queers, or anyone.... It's about getting back to Lesbian Feminist basics - a certain kind of "politik". It's conversation like this one that have convinced me of the urgency of that....

My basics don't have to be yours (or, do they?). I'm not male-phobic, trans-phobic, mollusk-phobic or any other presumed insult or epithet anyone may subtly or overtly lob at me.... I'm lesbian/woman-centric. That may be heresy to admit these days, but there you have it.


Lesbian Separatism, partially or wholly, is: "The separation of various sorts or modes from men [sexually, for instance] and from institutions, relationships, roles and activities that are male-defined, male-dominated, [male-value inculcated] and operating for the benefit of males and the maintenance of male privilege—this separation being initiated or maintained, at will, by women." [Oh no, willfull women ! ! ! !] - Marilyn Frye

I don't understand the "fear", either. But then, I'm not given to "fear".

Good point; it's something I think about a lot. Who's perceptions, intuitions, reality is allowed to prevail in an interaction? Mine, or another person's?

Humoring people is the politically correct thing to do these days. When you don't perform the mandated "politeness", or when you step on someone's theology/theory/beliefs, you run the risk of getting bashed, labeled and/or censored. It's anti-liberation, for some, but not all.

This is an essential issue for women because we have been forced/coerced into adopting other people's "ethic(s)" against our best interests since, well, since forever.

What are the contemporary, overt/covert ethical mandates in the culture, and the "community"? Do the mandates of the culture and the "community" differ, really, really? ....Are the community's mandates biased in favor of gender theory over Lesbian Feminism? ....Are the community mandates coercive? Do they force (some) lesbian women to self-censor, walk on eggshells, relinquish personal agency, shut-up and go away? Who's perceptions, intuitions, and reality are lesbian women suppose to embrace? Theirs or other people's? What are they to do when their's don't comport with the PC mandates? (Become "separatists", I suppose.)

These are not small issues. They're core Feminist issues.... There can be no Lesbian Pride without excavating them.



I just read a really interesting article about patriarchy's ever evolving mandates for "good girlism". It was illuminating.


"[W]hat I understand of the history of ethics in the modern period seems to fit with this [imposed standard for "good" and "evil"]. It [the cultural standard] was evolved by male citizen-administrators, working in a deep historical context of patriarchy, to enable their governing. It all makes me wonder if instead of seeking to create a Lesbian Ethics, we might consider learning to do without ethics entirely.

And I think that it may turn out that this is what Sarah’s [Sarah Lucia Hoagland's] book [Lesbian Ethics: Toward New Value] will help us accomplish. [Sought to accomplish, anyway.]

She is shifting from the language of the modem tradition of ethics: from knowing what is right to deciding what to pay attention to. And her last section is about meaning, the creation of meaning, not about “ethics.” - Marilyn Frye



Nah..... I'll call you smart and incisive. You're just not being a "good girl".

For the life of me, I don't know why people get so testy when issues like "good-girlism" are brought up. For real, I really don't.... I, for one, am really committed to excavating the remnants of whatever patriarchal "good girlism" continue to reside in me. SHRUG

I have a question?

What does being a feminist have anything to do with being a lesbian?

I've stayed out of this thread because I'm not a lesbian... Nothing about that word resounds with me... When I was a baby dyke/bi-girl/fag hag trying to figure out who I was, the lesbian community had no use for me, didn't take me seriously, dismissed me as a curious straight girl. I had NO clue about butches and why I was only attracted to such a small percent of women. If I had found acceptance within the lesbian community, If I had known about butchs then maybe I wouldn't have spent all those years thinking I was 90% straight and 10 percent gay....Maybe I wouldn't have married my ex husband and then put us both through hell trying to figure out why I couldn't emotionally connect with him...

I found acceptance and my *place*in the gay community with feminine gay men... These men were my *sisters* when women who should have been wanted nothing to do with me because I wore full face make up, curled my hair and wouldn't think to go out for the night unless I dress to the 9's..

I'm also not a feminist... I'm an egalitarian... I believe that if we stopped having so many different factions and all worked for a comon cause of equal rights for everyone, we might be further along...

People are the same... There is good and bad in every faction...(yes. I'm aware of the contradiction with my reasons why the word lesbian doesn't resound with me... My reasoning is.. I don't believe all lesbians communities were like the one in Colo Springs when I was a youngster...Let's just say I emprinted on Gay...) Women, Men, Black, White, POC, Gay/Trans/Straight... the list goes on... We are all the same, no one faction is better or worse...

I don't believe that all men are evil because one raped me..
I don't believe that all women are evil because one emotionally abused me..

Everyone is an individual, and while labels are useful to narrow down what you might have in common, they are not the be all and end all... When it boils down, every person is a individual with their own belief system.. ie.. June the lesbian and Kobi the lesbian...


Damn it.. I got preachy again didn't I?

Chazz - Yes, you're right, I did misread. I see that you very clearly state that you don't feel alone or isolated. I was also reacting to the implication that anyone who doesn't fall in line with a particular version of lesbian empowerment is somehow not working against the oppression of women, or is suspect as a feminist. It's highly possible that at this point, I'm reading in. I don't recall using separatist in your direction, but perhaps I did. I'm too tired to go back and look.

Even in the quote below Chazz, you imply that lesbians should "focus on themselves and the forces that oppress women." Well... do you mean women, or do you mean lesbians?

It's interesting, looking back on my own lesbian feminist politics and activism... many of the lesbians I worked with side-by-side in the shelter movement were working for the benefit of all women, in fact mostly straight women, (being that there was less awareness at that time, of the amount of domestic violence in lesbian relationships). I have always defined my feminism as being on behalf of women, including lesbians, but not just lesbians. So I find this term: lesbian/woman-centric, confusing. Is it lesbian centric or women centric?

I've been called a separatist many times - often by other queers, usually when I was talking about the need for women's space, usually in the context of trans inclusion/exclusion. But I remember a young straight woman accused me of separatism based upon my anti-violence-against-women work. (She claimed, erroneously, that men were "as likely" to be abused as women.) I gave her a lesson in statistics and then said something along the lines of: As long as patriarchy and gender-genocide separate women out to be objectified, violated, oppressed, and murdered based upon being female -- go ahead and call me a separatist. I'll wear it proudly.

When I said all women, I meant lesbians. I also meant married women in Appalachia, young girls in Nepal, old women in China, and trans women in Philli.

This makes me recall a trans person I knew about 10 years ago, (we've lost touch), who took T, had facial hair, could pass as male, used a gender neutral name, and insisted on female pronouns. Why? Because she wanted to express her solidarity with women, even as she shifted her own gender life. And not just queer women, all women. It was a very interesting political decision using her own personal identity as the landscape. It's something, actually, that butch women do by virtue of their very existence -- which is why the pronoun thing (using he, hy, hie, zie, etc), sometimes leaves me feeling a sense of loss.

I have realized in the course of this discussion that I am woman-centric. I always have been. Even when I was a straight, married mom. Perhaps I confused that with being a "goldstar" lesbian, which obviously I'm not, but this thread has helped me to clarify my own focus - so for that, I am grateful.

Heart

Until recently I held male as problematic, masculinity as suspect. It’s impossible to ignore all the violence and horror that men all over the world perpetrate daily against women. I was unable to separate masculinity from male, male from men and men from patriarchy. I held my own masculinity suspect and found it hard to own it. Slowly, over time, I have been able to see things a bit differently

While feminism is certainly about women it is a movement to end sexism, sexual exploitation and oppression. I don’t think we can do this without men. Women have for years re-examined and redefined femininity and what it means to be female in this sexist society. I think men need to do this as well. Men need to be responsible for examining and redefining masculinity in a different way, separate from the patriarchal model. The patriarchy really isn’t good for anyone (except, of course, those with power and money). Men are fairly screwed with this masculine ideal thing as well. Society’s definition of masculinity is so limited and limiting.

I read somewhere about defining the version of male that is about having the right to be superior, to dominate women and any group deemed weaker as patriarchal masculinity. I think it is an important term for me to get in the habit of using. I think it is an act of feminism to work on separating maleness and masculinity from this patriarchal version. I think it is intelligently feminist to understand that we also need men and masculine people to challenge patriarchy

I totally get women’s space and I do prefer to devote my energy to women. I just think it is prudent to remember that in order to end sexism, exploitation and oppression, to defeat patriarchy we will need our brothers. I don’t think it is an achievable goal without men, male identified and masculine people on our side.

Probably this is nothing new to anyone, but it is actually revolutionary thought for me.

Feminism has always included men- it is defined as equality of both sexes. Yes, there exist feminist separatists (just as there are those that base the world's worth upon that which is male)- but they are not and never have been the bulk of the various feminist movements.

Many of us have and have raised male children and as parents realized that a sexist society is not good for either females or males- society at large. However, women have traditionally received the shit end of the stick. That does not mean, however, that men, male, masculine is viewed as negative. The institutions of patriarchy are the problem, not individual men.

Feminism has always included men- it is defined as equality of both sexes. Yes, there exist feminist separatists (just as there are those that base the world's worth upon that which is male)- but they are not and never have been the bulk of the various feminist movements.

Many of us have and have raised male children and as parents realized that a sexist society is not good for either females or males- society at large. However, women have traditionally received the shit end of the stick. That does not mean, however, that men, male, masculine is viewed as negative. The institutions of patriarchy are the problem, not individual men. The institution of marriage has evolved past many of the patriarchal limits it held in the past (lots of new data on marriage being published).

I sometimes get a little upset with many discussions on feminism completely focusing on middle class, white, childless perspectives. This too, is just not the reality any longer. Feminism has evolved and grown along with the changes in demographics of the US (including gender studies) and just cannot be viewed in the same old ways.

I think "reading-in" is part and parcel to the medium.... But yes, the separatism-in-my-direction did happen. It's okay.

I have become somewhat separatist on a number of so-called "women's issues". Reproductive rights is one of them. I use to be hugely invested in that issue, but I came to see that that this was an issue that potentially reproductive women needed to take the lead on. My reasons for that are complex, idiosyncratic and include the fact that I was spreading myself thin on issues that did not directly speak to my life circumstances, barring rape.



I mean lesbian women.


I was also very invested personally and professionally in the shelter movement, at one time. Now, I've opened my home to shelter women. I've had four women and several children stay at my home over the past two + years for, anywhere, from several weeks to six months.



Yeah, I'm good with being called a separatist, too. Even proud of it, though it's only provisionally true. I don't mind being called anything for that matter. I know who, and what, I am.

Yes, the amount of misinformation, herstoric ignorance and just plain fact spinning is amazing. Clarification on that matters to me in conversations like this one because so many people, even within the LGBTQ "community", mistakenly think of separatism as anti-male. It's not; it's woman-centricism.



Some of the issues in which I'm invested include the same constituency.



I remember a period when many "straight women" identified as lesbian as a political statement. It was a lovely gesture but not problem free because, of course, they weren't lesbians, or were only provisionally so at best. For one thing, it created the impression that lesbian was an unstable identity. This reinforces ideas about curing gayness.... It also created the superficial and false impression that women had already overcome the distortions patriarchy creates in female-on-female relationships. (The issue of female relationships is an unfinished constructive effort which I would like to see become a priority).

"Straight women" identifying as lesbians, did nothing to address the fact that many of those straight women were hetero-male-relational caretakers. Lesbians are gyna-relational caretakers. That's a huge difference, especially under patriarchy..... Patriarchy takes care of men. It only takes care of women who take care of men. That leaves gyna-relational lesbians to fend for themselves, and one another.

"[Male] comradeship/fraternity survives by draining women of their energy, female friendship is a bonding which is energizing/gynergizing. Female bonding is threatening to comradeship, because it is a relationship which ignores the brotherhood and exposes its relationships with women as property arrangements." - Nancy B. Howell (Nobody has to believe this, it's enough that I do.)

The movement-of-women is still blocked by patriarchy. It's all I can do to take care of myself and other gyna-relational lesbians. Even that can be a tremendous strain, as in when I was fighting a hetero-male-centric family court system with limited financial resources and emotional support.

I, and the lesbians I politik with, are seeking an ontological metamorphosis. That being, that women become the final cause of women under patriarchy. It's the only way I see to chip away AT patriarchy. It's become less and less a priority under post-modernist theories. Do I know that what I am saying is not popular in some circles- you betcha.


I don't know what a "goldstar" lesbian is, perhaps because I've never met one. Don't expect to, either. That's okay, too.

Interesting article by a butch about MWMF, trans inclusion, generational divides, and queer organizing.


http://www.bilerico.com/2011/09/an_o...ntent=FaceBook

First of all- Holy hell! So many labels! The politics of sex and gender have befuddled me since my teens.

I ID as GODDESS! Yep, thats right and it has nothing to do with my dissociation with patriarchy. I'm not any ONE thing but a clear evolution of many things. As I move through the universe I shift, change, explore and to be honest I wouldn't allow anything to influence my desires.

This is totally correct in my world perception. I too have a son and males I love. I often feel a need to teach them to love. I actually know LOTS of male feminist who love, honor and adore women. IMO feminine energy is Divine. This does not mean male energy is disregarded but not primary. You can't compare matriarchy with patriarchy. They each act differently or at less in my matriarchal world.

I find it hard to call myself a lesbian. I find it hard to call myself anything, however I do love and honor feminine energy wherever it is present.

Hi Tru Texan. I am also a proud lesbian and a butch, as well as a feminist.

Hopefully the debating and the heated discussing helps us to understand each other better. People see things differently. And that's hard to come to terms with. Especially when most of us are so sure that the way we see it is the way it is. It's tricky to make room for beliefs that are so contrary to one's own. I think venues such as this makes that happen for many of us over time. Maybe not for every issue every time, but enough that it makes the debate worth the effort.

Some people ID as female but not as a woman. Their sex is female but their gender is not woman.

Hopefully this helps.

Uhm, that just confused me even more?!??
Can you give me an example of a person in general, so I can fully grasp this concept?
I don't get it, I mean how can you ID as female but not as woman?
If I say I am female ID"d butch on this site, what exactly does that mean now that I am totally confused. Does that mean to another person reading my ID here that I don't equate my female to mean I am woman?
HELP???? And thank you Miss Tick for answering and trying to help me understand atleast this one particular IDying.

It probably involves interpreting "female" as a word referring to biological sex and "woman" as a word referring to gender. I've seen that before.

Female usually refers to biological sex and woman refers to gender. However, a lot of people on this site use female to refer to gender as well as biological sex, mostly because some butches consider themselves to be female but not a woman.

I personally don't use the term female-identified to describe myself, but it is frequently used here. However, when someone says they are female-identified, it doesn't necessary mean they don't consider themselves to be a woman. Some do, some don't. Sorry I can't make this any clearer because it isn't clear cut. It varies from person to person.

Reclaiming Lesbian Pride
 

[QUOTE=Heart;409361]You know.... maybe it's valid to ask oneself if one is appropriating or co-opting an identity.




Wow. I didn't understand what you were talking about at first but in the second reading it became much clearer. I hope the following is along the same thought lines as your post, but I doubt I can recreate your "ripples in a pond" writing style. It was very unique.
My ex was a concrete, dispassionate thinker, especially when it came to her fixed version of butch and femme roles. They were set in concrete that she mixed before we met, and she would never discuss the topic if it meant straying off of her masterly definition.
For a femme, she was very competitive with me and she had to be the top dog of our relationship. I didn't get it, but I loved her and went along with it.
Our B/F definitions never matched, but with her I had to choose my battles.
Now that I'm free, I realize that I am a lot more fluid about who I want to be from one day to the next.
Though I have always been sexually attracted to "pretty girls" who were usually femme, I think I would love to meet a pretty girl who was butch.
Just the sound of it makes me smile. Even a handsome one might do. Who can say?
Thanks for the thought provoking post.