Here is their permit.

"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Moving on.

Looking back, looking forward -
 

From Zinn's A People's History of the United States -

http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defc...nselhel15.html

These people were becoming "dangerous," as Steinbeck said. The spirit of rebellion was growing. Mauritz Hallgren, in a 1933 book, Seeds of Revolt, compiled newspaper reports of things happening around the country:

England, Arkansas, January 3, 1931. The long drought that ruined hundreds of Arkansas farms last summer had a dramatic sequel late today when some 500 farmers, most of them white men and many of them armed, marched on the business section of this town. .. . Shouting that they must have food for themselves and their families, the invaders announced their intention to take it from the stores unless it were provided from some other source without cost.

Detroit, July 9, 1931. An incipient riot by 500 unemployed men turned out of the city lodging house for lack of funds was quelled by police reserves in Cadillac Square tonight. . ..

Indiana Harbor, Indiana, August 5, 1931. Fifteen hundred jobless men stormed the plant of the Fruit Growers Express Company here, demanding that they be given jobs to keep from starving. The company's answer was to call the city police, who routed the jobless with menacing clubs.

Boston, November 10, 1931. Twenty persons were treated for injuries, three were hurt so seriously that they may die, and dozens of others were nursing wounds from flying bottles, lead pipe, and stones after clashes between striking longshoremen and Negro strikebreakers along the Charlestown-East Boston waterfront.

Detroit, November 28, 1931. A mounted patrolman was hit on the head with a stone and unhorsed and one demonstrator was arrested during a disturbance in Grand Circus Park this morning when 2000 men and women met there in defiance of police orders.

Chicago, April 1, 1932. Five hundred school children, most with haggard faces and in tattered clothes, paraded through Chicago's downtown section to the Board of Education offices to demand that the school system provide them with food.

Boston, June 3, 1932. Twenty-five hungry children raided a buffet lunch set up for Spanish War veterans during a Boston parade. Two automobile-loads of police were called to drive them away.

New York, January 21, 1933. Several hundred jobless surrounded a restaurant just off Union Square today demanding they be fed without charge.. . .

Seattle, February 16, 1933. A two-day siege of the County-City Building, occupied by an army of about 5,000 unemployed, was ended early tonight, deputy sheriffs and police evicting the demonstrators after nearly two hours of efforts.

Yip Harburg, the songwriter, told Studs Terkel about the year 1932: "I was walking along the street at that time, and you'd see the bread lines. The biggest one in New York City was owned by William Randolph Hearst. He had a big truck with several people on it, and big cauldrons of hot soup, bread. Fellows with burlap on their feet were lined up all around Columbus Circle, and went for blocks and blocks around the park, waiting." Harburg had to write a song for the show Americana. He wrote "Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?"

Once in khaki suits.

Gee, we looked swell,

Full of that Yankee Doodle-de-dum.

Half a million boots went sloggin' through Hell,

I was the kid with the drum.

Say, don't you remember, they called me Al-

It was Al all the time.

Say, don't you remember I'm your pal-

Brother, can you spare a dime?

Drew:

My reasons for being uncharacteristically quiet on this thread are covered pretty well in this post at HuffPo by the law professor Lawrence Lessig:

[begin his words]
Here's the fact about America: It takes an insanely large majority to make any fundamental change. You want Citizens United reversed, it is going to take 75% of states to do it. You want public funding of public elections? It's going to take 67 Senators to get it. You want to end the corruption that makes it impossible to get any of the things liberals push? It's going to take a broad based movement that cuts across factions, whether right (as in correct) or Right (as in not Left).

It's great to rally the 99%. It is a relief to have such a clear and powerful slogan. But explain this, because I'm a lawyer, and not so great with numbers: Gallup's latest poll finds 41% of Americans who call themselves "conservative." 36% call themselves "moderate." Liberals account for 21%. In a different poll, Gallup finds 30% of Americans who "support" the Tea Party.

So who exactly are we not allowed to work with, Dave? 30% of America? 41% of America? All but 21% of America? And when you exclude 30%, or 41%, or 79% of Americans, how exactly are you left with 99%?

Talk about wanting to have it "both ways"! How can you claim to speak for 99% but refuse to talk to 30%? (And just to be clear: the 30% of Americans who support the Tea Party are not the 1% "superrich." I checked. With a calculator.)

And finally as to one of the commentators on Dave's essay who finds me "poisonous," and said I said: "OWS needs to drop the 'We are the 99%' slogan because it might hurt the feelings of the rich." What I said was not that the movement should give up the slogan 99% because it offended. I said it should instead talk about the 99.95%. That's the percentage of Americans who did not max out in giving in the last Congressional election. That is the percentage that becomes invisible in the money-feeding-fest that is DC.

So if you really want to rally the 99%, you might begin by identifying those things that 99% might actually agree about. That the 30% of Americans who call themselves "supporters" of the Tea Party are racists is not a statement likely to garner the support of at least that 30%. (And again, as ABC found, it's not even true).

On the other hand, 99% of America should be perfectly willing to agree that a system in which the top 1% -- or better, .05% -- have more power to direct public policy than do the 99% or 99.95% is wrong. And must be changed. Before this nation can again call itself a democracy (for those on the Left) or a Republic (for those on the Right). This "Republic," by which the Framers meant a "representative democracy," by which they intended a body "dependent upon the People ALONE," is not.

That, too, must change. Meaning, in addition to all the things we Liberals want, we must change that as well. And my view is that if we changed that corruption first, we might actually find it a bit easier to get those other things too.

[end his words]
-----------------------

I am a Liberal but I'm a Liberal that does not believe I am living on 'occupied' land. I am living on land taken by conquest over a century ago but that cannot be changed and so to call America 'occupied' land is to make me a foreigner in my own country, the only country my family has known since at least the early 19th century. I've read a number of OWS statements that were decidedly anti-capitalist. Some of the stuff at People of Color Organize invokes the 'petty bourgeois' and speaks of destroying capitalism. This turns me off for two reasons.

As a college educated professional, I am the 'petty bourgeois' which has to be 'swept aside' in order for the poor and working-class to be free. Secondly, there is simply no way to have a *socialist* society without seriously restricting freedom and liberty. We can have social democracy but we cannot have socialism. I have also noted that skeptical or dissenting voices are written off not caring or being fine with the ways things are. I think that people of goodwill can disagree with certain rhetorical flourishes (presuming that the people using that rhetoric mean it) while still agreeing that the system is skewed toward the rich and that this creates injustice which leads to instability.

I don't want to create a socialist utopia because I know of no better way to create a dystopia than to try to create a utopia. I would argue that one of the causes of our current suffering is that the Right has been pursuing a libertarian utopia. I want to create a society where someone who is born into poverty can get an education, find themselves a job, work their way up a career ladder and perhaps retire as solidly middle-class. I want to *expand* the ranks of the 'petty bourgeois' not see them swept away.

Right now, I'm seeing the Left talk to the Left and only certain segments of the Left at that! I do not see anything that leads me to believe that people of the Right (of which I am not) are welcome nor have I heard or read anything here to make me believe that Liberals (as opposed to radicals) are at all welcome, that our voices would be heard, that our ideas would be given due consideration, or that our experiences would be considered at all worth listening to. I might be wrong but I've been reading this thread since the very beginning and I don't see a great deal that leads me to believe otherwise.

Lessig is right, we are the 99% is a great slogan. The problem is is that there isn't a concerted effort to bring most of that 99% into the fold.

Cheers
Aj

I feel like you might be jumping to a negative conclusion about what I was trying to get across about how there needs to be responsibility taken for "occupying" any public space and respect for what we all do in these spaces. I really appreciated the NYC groups recognizing that when we band together and exercise our right to protest, we do need to consider how our actions could impact public health & safety. Plus, how do we make the protest space safe and healthy for all of us protesting? There are ways to do this and continue to put OWS front and center so that our grievances are addressed.

I don't like police using tear gas, bean bag "bullets" on citizens that are airing their grievances peacefully. And what I was saying had to do with how these conflicts can be better addressed.

I have worked with homeless programs in the past and it is a huge social problem with many of these people not getting medical (and mental health care) care along with decent nutrition and the ability to stay warm in winter or cool in heat waves. I spent quite a few years in public service as a social worker. Personally, I feel we all are responsible for challenging the reasons for homelessness and have no problem with tax dollars being spent on homeless programs. In fact, I would like to see more spent on dealing with the challenges of homelessness.

There needs to be a balance between not infringing on the rights of others (the very 99% that uses these public areas- rich people go to private gyms, for examples and bring their kids to private day care, not the city parks) and having a consistent protest movement. Public parks, especially in large cities, offer people many forms of relaxation and exercise areas that are inexpensive and are at the heart of where we can congregate and do need to be kept clean and sanitary for public health reasons.

At the center of this is how to groom good relations that help bring people into this movement and begin to take action against the entities that the protests are pointing out. Getting to the goals of prosecution of Wall Street predatory lenders and actually seeing our government utilize the new regulatory legislation that was passed by Congress. Getting results.

As much as I hate to say this, I did see public urination in SF during a protest I went to there. Now my guess is that the guy that did it does all of the time, yet, this is what will be first on the news stations owned by Faux News to incite negative feelings about the entire OWS movement. Wouldn't it be better to have organized measures to have porta-potties in place? He also needs help.

I also believe that it might be more effective to have well planned, major events country-wide on specified dates. That way, the numbers of people protesting would be much larger and numbers in these things do matter in terms of impact. This could be a very influential movement in the coming general elections across the US if large protests are in place during the Summer and fall before the election. In fact, getting the OWS agendas to be part of the presidential debates during the general election campaign season is imperative for action. Including actions that might stop the number of people that will be tossed out of their homes.

This movement needs to grow and befriend a multitude of people in order to bring about the changes needed to protect the 99% just as the anti-Vietnam War protests did. With good organization and communication, that protest movement influenced congressional leaders to look at what we were doing in Vietnam and get us the hell out of there. This took quite a bit of time, but finally broke through a diversity of people in the US from liberals to conservatives. Which is needed here. Standing as one no matter if you vote Democrat, Republican or Independent is essential to get the changes we need and be heard.

I don’t like what is going on in Oakland because I am afraid that people will get hurt and that doesn’t have to happen. There are members of the Oakland City Council that support these protests but they also have duties to the entire city and are responsible for public health and welfare. Let's make it easier for them to back the protests. Although, the Oakland PD has a long history with unjust treatment of citizens and the chief just resigned due to the lack of support of city officials that were promised. There is some tension there that is not related to OWS.

Of course homelessness should not be viewed as illegal.

Atlanta
 

Austin still going strong even after this incident. I love the way the news handled it.

Day 60
 

.. almost Halloween, it could get scary!

Friday the 28th is National Walk Out of School Day for OWS. 12:30 p.m. nationwide. Time for students and teachers to show their outrage with a walkout and a protest. This is slated for schools across the nation. Who will attend?

Remove inflation. The cause for holding students hostage with the debt of education. Be protected by the Bill of Rights. Assemble peacefully and occupy public space. Take a stand together against the 1%, have a right to free speech, protest, and make your voice heard in your country and in your streets. Occupy it.

That kind of sucks. I know the one in NYC wasn't allowing drugs or alcohol, not that I ever think of reefer(I haven't heard this term used since 1982) as a drug. Patchouli I expected. lol At most of the other camps I've seen people from all walks of life. Older people, young people, students, union workers etc...

I thought this article was interesting on the connection between food stamps and JPMorgan or banks.

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/a...p-morgan-makes

yahoo photos.....about 2/3 through the 27 pics you will see what it looked like before the police 'evicted' them. Looks very neat and orderly to me.

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/police-...072926256.html

I'm not buying the health and safety crap. KPFA....it's free radio...gave voice to the Occupy folks. They all seemed knowlegeable about food safey and health stuff. There are plenty of ways to safely deal with human waste. Camping toliets are fabulous things. These folks are not dirty nasty sub humans who want to wallow in human and rat piss and shit. Rats are everywhere in downtown Oakland as they are in every frigging city in the country.

If the Health Department had concerns they could have simply asked to talk to the folks in charge of the kitchen and work with them to make corrections IF needed.

Occupy Oakland and Occupy SF are well organized with every kind of committee you can think of..I know SF even has a gender issues point person.....they have regular open meetings. They are serious folks about the issues.

Oh yes there are probably some asshats.....always have been and always will be.......however they are no where no way the majority of the 99% folks.

come on............it's Portland..........laughin......about the most white bread city in the country.......:toypony:

As to reefer....I smell it every day on the streets anyway....medical marijuana is alive and well and on the streets in the Bay...

I didn't read the rules at the camps, but I would imagine no booze, no illegal drugs, no cigarettes/cigars would be the norm and probably no weapons except for knives. Smoking a bowl of bud is another thing.

Unfortunately, Occupy Wall St has been occupying privately owned property not a public park, not a city park,....The owner of the land has told them they will be evicted..and they need to move. They have done neither so they have been evicted.
Please do not take this for my lack of support for occupy wall street...I am extremely supportive of all occupy movements across the country i spend much time here at the occupy philly one....

But, having a legal leg to stand on is usually a smart idea. and there is such a thing as trespassing....I dont like it,,,I am glad the city of philadlephia has been absolutely wonderful...they have even supplied some electric lines form city hall...However, the people who own our old liberty park are not as open minded nor do they want the occupiers on their property. Sad ,, but nothing to get ones bloomers in a bunch about,,There are plenty of places in the wall street area to occupy, march and stroll...If they would put their signs down they could occupy the nyse visitors section for a day....or so...Peaceful gatherings as in occupiers walking 2 by 2 down wall street sidewalks very very slowly, in silence, no signs...(see with no signs and in silence then it is just people walking) walk slow enough and you can cause major bedlam on that street.... and bluntly a few stalled out vehicles....in opportune places can make quite a statement....
The biggest point is however, the occupiers have started something good, but for it to continue each individual in the 98% needs to take responsibility for their own actions and say enough is enough and cut up the credit cards, close the bank account, open a credit union account, and start cutting their shackles to corporate America by buying locally, not buying on credit, and by simply saying I dont need it...I dont want it....none of us need the new fancy cellphone or the latest computer, or 4 00 channels on tv or the latest shoes, purse or jeans....we want so we say need....and until every person stops supporting the 2% with their need for immediate material gratification,,all the occupations in the world will do nothing..

Read this..... and I promise you will see what I am saying..

http://www.forbes.com/sites/brendanc...wn-everything/

what to do if you're arrested for participating in OWS.

Although there may not be any justification for an arrest and you don't like the way you are treated, you should always remain calm. Physically resisting arrest will be worse for you. You have the right to remain silent and you have the right to refuse consent for a search.

Most of the arrests for OWS are falling under disorderly conduct. It can be different for each state, but they are along those lines, impeding traffic, failure to disperse, creating annoyance, loitering, etc. It could result in a misdemeanor charge, jail time and a criminal record. Once out of jail, if you continue to OWS and another arrest happens, it could bring harsher penalties each time.

Understand your rights however. Here is a link that goes over your rights if you're stopped by police, including asking if you are free to leave and writing a complaint and contacting your local ACLU if you feel your rights are violated.

http://www.aclu.org/drug-law-reform-...what-do-if-you

I see your point about permits and I also want safety for all as well as sanitary conditions to exist at protests. Sometimes someone gets sick and needs an ambulance. There has to be a way for the ambulance to get to them and get them on their way to a hospital, for example.

And I don't see a problem with having demonstrators disperse for public works employees to do their clean up jobs. Parks are continually maintained and cleaned by these kinds of departments and power washing is used all of the time. Then, everyone can come back.

I don't agree with the camping out as it leads to many more sanitation problems. For everyone- and disease is spread this way. There are many people including homeless folks that do not have good healthcare (one of our complaints), have compromised immune systems or other chronic illness in which contracting stash or hepatitis is more likely, thus, potentially threatening the health of others. This just happens in large crowd situations no matter who the people gathering are.

In a socially democratic society, we care about the health and well being of others. So, in exercising our rights to protest for the "good of the common people," shouldn't we consider how to best control the spread of germs, etc.?

LOL, yes, I am a germ-phobe, although it comes naturally as a person with an audio-immune cluster that I know compromises me in these kinds of situations. I wash my hands a lot! Don't even think about eating off of my plate or sharing a beverage. And if someone is coughing or sneezing, I'm gone. It isn't just a common cold that I could get. And I am just one of millions of people in the US dealing with this. I will be a real mess if I have to evacuate to a dorm situation or tent city during an earthquake! Consider the fact that homeless people may very well have poor health and not be able to fight off a common cold or become very ill with a flu strain. They don't even get decent general medical care as it is and most that have mental illnesses are not on needed medications in any consistent manner. They are at high risk.

It looks like in Oakland, the demonstrators are free to come back to the park after it is cleaned. However, they will not be allowed to camp-out or demonstrate after dark. I agree with Aj on the whole occupied land thing and the fact that unless one is Native American, they don't really have a right to take over any public space.

Does anyone know if these are now common procedures that are being put in place in other cities in the US where there are OWS protests. Also, have there been more efforts get a balance between the demonstrators and the jobs public works employees need to do with maintaining a public park. Frankly, I don't see the need for violence on either side of this if cool heads prevail. There have to be common sense solutions to keeping this peaceful and safe so that the real points of this assembly is realized.

I was arrested more than once back in the 70's while protesting- and I usually caught a cold after protesting. It's kind of like going into a classroom with a bunch of little kids with runny noses. Back then I didn't have the same health concerns, however. I am still going to some of these, but I won't be setting up camp.

Ruffryder:

You bring up some interesting points that I wish were given more due consideration. One of the books I read in the last six months (I think it was Matt Ridley's The Rational Optimist) had a discussion about local sourcing and while it seems like a great idea, it actually can create quite a bit of price inflation. Someone back east set out to create a men's suit using only materials that could be obtained within 50 miles of her home. To be fair she started absolutely from scratch and, if memory serves (I don't have the book with me at work) a suit that would have cost maybe $150 - $200 at a local clothing store was close to $1000 when all was said and done. Another book I'm currently reading (Steven Pinker's The Better Angels of Our Nature) brings up a really interesting point about trade and that is that it appears to create a more peaceful world. Why bomb someone at great expense when you can trade with them and get the things they have that you want at a fraction of the cost?

People who have studied how humans have become less violent over time (and despite what you might think humans are *far* less violent now then even a century ago) have noted two things. Trading partners tend not to go to war with one another and democracies tend not to go to war with one another. So while the idea of local sourcing and buying local might seem like an intuitively obvious idea, it may turn out that there are hidden costs. This is NOT a defense of globalization nor is it a defense of unregulated capitalism.

Another problem I see with our quickness to grasp onto local sourcing and buying local as a panacea is that it ignores what happens when trade is diminished. Let's say you live someplace where there's plenty of minerals but not a lot of good farmland. I live someplace where there's not a lot of minerals but lots of farmland. Now, if you trade your surplus minerals with me and I trade my surplus food with you, you have the food you can't grow yourself and I have the minerals I can't dig out of the ground. But what happens if I stop trading with you? Well, I still have all this food but I don't need to grow as much anymore. If I'm no longer selling for a large market, I don't need all the extra hands around. So I lay them off. Likewise, since you don't need nearly as many miners if you aren't trying to get enough minerals out of the ground to trade for other goods you lay them off. Now, we've done the right thing and we've shrunk our footprint. We are now only doing business locally but we're doing *less* business. Every person I lay off is one person who doesn't have money to stop by the bar and buy a couple of beers after a hard day. Every person you lay off is someone who isn't going to eat at the diner during their lunch hour. So the diner lays off someone. That person isn't going to go to the tailor and buy a new dress. So the tailor lays off someone. That person isn't going to be buying a car from the used car dealership, so they lay off someone.

We can't say that the economy doesn't behave that way because, in fact, we are in a recession *precisely* because the economy *does* behave that way. There's a crisis on Wall Street and businesses either fold or contract. The people who lose their jobs aren't spending at the lunch counters, bars and little shops surrounding the business districts so some of those businesses also fold. People who keep their jobs seriously contract their spending in case they are the next one's to get a layoff notice. More jobs are lost. And the cycle feeds on itself.

This is why I am so very, very frustrated that the GOP is pretending that a Keynesian stimulus would be nothing but a waste of money and energy. If people are hired to start repairing schools, bridges and roads those will be construction workers who have money in their pocket. Knowing that it's going to take a while to do the job and there'll be more work because there's a lot of roads to be repaired and schools to be updated, so they spend at the bar or the tailor or what-have-you. That is part of what is wrong is that the government, the spender of last resort, isn't able to do infrastructure projects NOT because there's no money but because our politics is broken.

I understand the arguments in favor of buying local and to some degree I think that's good. My wife and I, for instance, have committed to not eating out of season so there won't be bananas in January for us. On a limited scale this works and as an act of conscience I applaud it. However, I think that we need to be mindful of the ripple effects of economic actions. What might seem to be a self-evidently great idea may, in light of deeper reflection, have hidden costs that may be higher than we should want to pay.

How many here would be willing to have the cost of most everything--certainly their electronics, clothing and food--to double? Triple? Would this really help the poor if suddenly a $700 bare-bones laptop suddenly became a $2100 laptop because every component had to be made within 100 miles? What about those objects that have no physicality? Do we local source that stuff as well? When I upgraded to OS X Lion I didn't touch a DVD, I downloaded it. I don't know nor do I care *where* those bits came from. Should we local source those items like software, books and music that have no physicality to them?

Cheers
Aj

Dean:

I get what you're saying and I'm wrestling with this myself because my wife and I are not buying on credit and we've basically decided that if we can't save up for it, we don't need it. On the other hand, certain industries--and here I'm thinking about the computer industry--is predicated on a certain amount of 'churn'. Let's say that people took your advice and stopped buying the latest computer. That means that Dell, Apple and HP won't need as many employees so they'll lay them off. That means that the software vendors won't need as many employees so they'll lay *them* off. If everyone closes up their pockets and buys only the necessities then I think the economy will get worse, not better. It may not be the way we want it to be but I fear that whether we would prefer it, this is the economy we have to start with and make changes to that system.

I would like to see more emphasis on thrift and delayed gratification on the consumer side and a return to slow-and-steady growth on the business side. I would like to see businesspeople once again use, as one metric of success, hiring people instead of it being seen as, at best, an inconvenience to have a larger payroll this year than last.

Cheers
Aj

Dean, where are you getting the information that OWS has been evicted? I have heard nothing that says that has happened.
Are you referring to Occupy Oakland?

Occupy Oakland @6:00pm 14th and Broadway tonight

ps Merrick I think Dean has old news....I heard about this last week and the guy decided not to evict them.

Oh that.. The clean up thing.. Yeah that's very old news :)
Did everyone hear about the Chief of Police in Albany who defied the Governor ? Or lets put it this way, suggested he needed to rethink evicting peaceful protesters ; )
Let me see if I can link it..
I have only heard generally about it, don't have specific knowledge ...
It will be covered tomorrow morning on WRRL with a commentator who has broadcast from OWS several times now, Mark Lewis...Worth listening to and yes you can catch the show streaming live...
But here you go:

http://www.timesunion.com/opinion/ar...4390.phpttp://

I found an article. So awesome!

http://redgreenandblue.org/2011/10/2...occupy-albany/

That is just a bit of the article.

One can always hope the police everywhere will learn from the Albany PD and follow suit....after all the police are in the 99%.

They damn sure don't need riot gear, 18" batons, tear gas and shotgun fired bean bags to protect and serve the public.

I doubt very much when people say they are the 99% that they believe they are actually the whole 99% but rather just a part. The part that is energized and seeking a way to wake up the rest of the 99%. I also haven’t heard there are people who the movement will not work with. But perhaps there are. What do I know. However, being a leaderless movement, or a movement in which everyone can lead, I can’t imagine one or two people can make a decision about who the movement can or cannot work with.

I think Dave Zirin is a bit of a self righteous prick and I think Lawrence Lessig is a bit of a dreamer. And I think Lessig has more of a problem with Zirin that he does with the Occupy movement itself. Especially given he spoke at Occupy Wall St and Occupy K St. Granted he does have a bit of a theme going –

“We should use the energy and anger of this extraordinary movement to find the common ground that would justify this revolution for all Americans, and not just us. And when we find that common ground, we should scream it, and yell it, and chant it, again, and again, and again.” Lawrence Lessig

Perhaps a themed Lessig is not exactly an over the top all out supporter, still, I can’t imagine any right minded person could really disagree with a theme of common ground that would justify this revolution for all Americans.

Well, maybe someone could disagree with his use of the word revolution. I think Mr. Lessig didn’t actually mean revolution. There is such a chasm between reform and revolution that a good many of the 99% would fall in trying to cross ideas from one side to the other.

Or maybe I am speaking for myself.

I know I stare at that chasm between reform and revolution and wonder. What side am I standing on? Although I seem able to make the leap back and forth it does leave me breathless. I have stood here or there it seems for as long as I can remember. But for some reason, at this particular time in history, I see something different. Another possibility.

But again I could be wrong. It might just be the same old. But I am a sucker for reform. And who wouldn’t be. The devil you know and all that. What could possibly be different with something new when it’s the same flawed human beings creating it. Why not fix what we have? But is that even possible?

Yet, I can’t help but hope.

Still, I have a hard time with movements and political parties. Historically political parties were often created or strengthened by siphoning off the revolutionary potential of various social movements from the streets to the voting booth. Political parties by their very nature acknowledge the authority of the state and the hierarchal structures of our society. Though they may seek to make changes to the aesthetics of our system, they do not challenge the system because they are very much a part of it. All they can do is treat the symptoms. They may spout rhetoric for the 99% but they represent the 1%.

So where do I stand. Reform or revolution. I guess I will just wait and see what transpires in the coming months and years. But in the mean time…

I don’t think Lessig’s idea of a united 99% is so much horseshit, as Zirin so foolishly claimed. I don’t know that the occupy movement will find allies in the tea party, but if they do that would be awesome. I do think they very well might find allies within the 99% who identify as republicans. And they will find them within the 99% who identify as democrats and independents and green and so on. I think most right-minded people see a big problem and get that there are bad times ahead for the 99%. I understand it will hit some of us harder than others. In the end though I’m not sure we will be able to tell the difference. The poor don’t have far to fall before they hit bottom, so maybe it won’t hurt so bad. Yet, the bottom is just that. The bottom. Squeezed dry, over and out. However, the poor don’t have much real opportunity to accumulate debt, the great equalizer. Debt will erase your class in a heartbeat. The rich don’t need debt and the poor can’t afford debt. Guess who that leaves?

The middle class or what is left of them, are likely to be crushed beneath the weight of debt. I think when you stumble and smash yourself on the rocks of austerity, it’s hard to tell the bottom from a rocky ledge only part way down. And I don’t know how much comfort there is in knowing you can still fall further.

As far as posting on a forum or talking to your peers or spreading your ideas, opinions and beliefs in any way possible, I say go for it. But the reality is that not everyone’s ideas, opinions, beliefs are equal. For example (and granted to save time I chose an easy one), some people believe evolution is not a proven fact but just a theory and they feel creationism is a valid theory as well and deserves equal time and should be taught in schools etc. Others understand that evolution is a proven theory given all the data available, it’s a fact and in order for it to stop being a fact someone would have to disprove it. These two beliefs are not equal. There is a truth here a right and a wrong. Evolution is a fact and a belief in a fact should not be made to share equal time with belief in a fallacy. There is not data or proof to support creationism. So while I understand and accept that some people believe in it, I don’t have to consider it as something that should have equal value. However, that doesn’t mean that when it comes to ideas and opinions based on knowledge and facts, and with reasons behind them I don't want to hear them unless they mirror mine. I don’t have to agree with everything everyone says. And I’m very capable of changing my mind when I hear a good reason to reconsider what I believe.

Everyone’s experiences are valuable.

The upper 10% of income earners have a much smaller debt burden relative to income and net worth. Those people should have ample spending power to help fuel an economic recovery.

The data in 2007 stipulated that low income families I made up 40% of the population and just 12% of consumption. Middle class, 50% of the population and 46% of the consumption. Wealthy 10% made up 42% of the consumption.

The figures might have change somewhat, but the reality is the rich can afford to consume enough to make up for the rest of us slowing down a bit considering what's been happening. Hell I bet they prefer to spend to help economic recovery more than they would like to pay more taxes. They could just take one for the team.

I was thinking since they had ample notice, perhaps they have already got some action going to protect themselves. Like derivatives where they bet they will suffer a loss on Nov 5th. You know how they love to gamble. Especially against themselves. That's how they make big profits. And then they can double dip and get a bailout.

That would be Mark RILEY .. Excellent commentator...
My brain.. is well... :seeingstars:

She was at Oakland last night and was there when the police came in. Interesting interview.

In Oakland last night, Scott Olsen, a former Marine, two-time Iraq war veteran, and member of Iraq Veterans Against the War, sustained a skull fracture after being shot in the head with a police projectile while peacefully participating in an Occupy Oakland.

Badly hurt
But the maybe even worse part, is that when people rushed to try and help the young man, lying badly wounded unable to move on the ground the police DELIBERATELY TOSS A FLASH BOMB INTO THE GROUP.
Oh yes, who's tactic is that?? Terrorist tactic? Wait until the medics rush in then throw a second bomb??
WTF is going on in this country..
The young man is in critical condition, with brain injuries.
have a link
Iraq Veterans Release

Sign some petitions, recall the Mayor...
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Recall...285437?sk=wall


http://www.couragecampaign.org/page/...oliceBrutality
This is beyond disgusting....

footage from last nite at oo
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsUwdNhNdeE"]Just Another Night in Oakland - OPD vs. OCCUPY - YouTube[/nomedia]

RFT interview with Boots Riley at OO last nite https://www.facebook.com/video/video...56246521092479

has anyone seen this ish?http://boingboing.net/2011/10/20/nao...inary-law.html

old news from last week......

------------------
I was down at Occupy Oakland this evening.....came home before shit hits the fan and it will hit the fan around 10:00pm. The police had actually fenced off the grassy area where the camp was located. The rally was in front of City Hall with the fenced off area behind them. Well......of course the fence came down and was neatly stacked against buildings and on the grass....safety when the police come in with tear gas and flash grenades and rubber bullets (they say it's bean bags) was a concern for those taking down the fence.

I would guess the crowd size to be at least 1,000 folks by 8:00pm when I left with more coming in.

The word is that Occupy SF is being removed tonight and they were asking for non-violent support in the City.

And just in case you didn't know......there is an Iraq Marine veteran who is in critical condition in Highland Hospital (Oakland) with a traumatic head injury from a 'projectile' to the head.....

yes i am aware of what's happening with OO, i have a friend who is still down there. i saw the video of the marine, and photos, videos from my friend of the carnage the opd is wreaking on the people of oakland.. it's horrible. i'm praying people are safe tonight. unfortunately i am not as informed of what is going on with osf..(or ows for that matter) it's further away from home for me, but i am trying to stay abreast of what's happening.

Aj, thanks for coming in and sharing your thoughts. The strength of this movement is in the diversity of its participants.

I guess you and I must be reading different sources for information on the OWS movement. I haven't seen or heard or read anything saying that OWS is for socialism. From what I have seen and read, they do want significant reform but nothing about abolishing capitalism. And to suggest that they want to go to a system that restricts freedom and democracy seems antithetical to everything I am seeing.

There might be some people who do want a socialist utopia. Frankly, I don't have a clue what that would look like. I, personally, believe that we need some powerful reforms along the lines of the New Deal. Stronger anti-trust laws, a more progressive tax system, and things along those lines. These are the types of things that are coming out of the OWS working groups and voted on at the General Assemblies.

I think you will find a lot of helpful information about what is going on at the epicenter of the movement here:

http://the99delegation.forumotion.com/

http://www.nycga.net/category/assemblies/minutes-ga/

If you just read the minutes from the GA meetings you can see that what is going on is democracy in its purest form. They don't agree on taking any actions until a full consensus is reached. They have various working groups whose job it is to bring proposals to the GA meetings for everyone to vote on. If they don't get 100% consensus on a proposal, they will listen to concerns and go back and work on it and then bring it back and have another vote.

This is what is so great about the process: they are making every effort to give everyone who attends their meetings a voice! The only people I have seen being kicked out are the ones advocating violence. This is a leaderless movement because it is not about individual people. It is about all of us.

Aj, if you can, would you please provide some links to the sources you are reading which have led to your conclusion that some people aren't welcome at the OWS events or GA meetings so I can see what you are seeing? Thanks.

Bank of America posted something like 6 or 8 billion dollars in profits last year. I think they will be ok.

I'm not so much worried about them as further destabilization of the economy.

eviction warning in sf right now... reports of bart being closed at several stops to prevent oo from assisting
http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution

I heart patchouli :P

apparently Quan helped plan the raid, but had NO idea it was gonna go down. ??
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...BAMD1LMMA0.DTL

Oakland and a few of my favorite things
 

4 favorite parts of tonight,1. Hanging with G 2.taking 14th and Broadway with music and dancing 3. All the folks parting to let an ambulance through and then re-taking the street 4. marching to the jail and have the folks in jail flick the lights and us cheering let them all out and them flickering the lights. pictures/video to follow in the AM, sweet dreams all:glasses: