Total and complete derail alert.


LOL!! Tell him you are writing an article about penis transplant. Does he have one to donate. You even accept the small ones.


God!!

He'll need a penis transplant if he touches my laptop again.


End Of Derail,
Brute.

No, not at all. That is why i said that there was no need for an apology from anyone. I am and was not offended by what you said. I guess to clarify...i was speaking in general,personal, terms. I don't feel that you were calling me girl or lesbian. I am trying to point out my personal feelings regarding being a transman. I never identified with being lesbian is all that i was, and am, trying to explain or convey.

Brutal - I liked what you just said about having walked and lived as a Female.

I think that was the crux of what makes us acccessible to each other is that we all honor what we have as a shared context. While some folks on this site don't identify as female on any level, I would say that 100% of the folks on this site were either born as female, raised as a female, or have lived as females at some point in their lives.

That is one of the pieces of glue that makes us recognizeable to each other.

I appreciate that you are willing to share that part of yourself rather than shut it down or act like it never existed. It goes a long, LONG way in helping us understand one another!!

Wanted to edit this to my last post but will just add here:

I also think what you said about this site being different neighborhoods of a sort is valuable. The different threads we have here go a long way in helping contain conversations and act like neighborhoods in a city where we have all agreed to live (by posting here).

I do think that we can sometimes hear the next block over having a party and want to join in. Especially if they are playing good music or arguing about who's cat craps on who's lawn. I do think there is a reason that a lot of Transmen might choose to hang out on this site versus go to a site that is exclusively for Transmen and it might go back to that whole shared context thing. Because not only have some Transmen lived as women, but some of them (and a great many of them on this site) have lived as Butches.

The thing I have seen in threads over the years is that if Femmes are having a thread about something specific to them, let's say Femme invisibility, people of other genders are pretty good about policing themselves out of the discussion. I do think that folks of other genders would chime in if one of the Femmes posted something like "I feel more invisible around Transmen and here's why". A Transman might read that and think "oh bull shit" or they might want to engage simply for understanding.

I hope you guys don't feel intruded upon. This conversation has been so valuable and has really helped a lot of folks (me included!) and further than that, I hope that it doesnt feel like an intrusion when folks call out problematic stuff but rather we can look at is as an opportunity to learn from one another.

No matter the fact that I feel 100% male, I was born in a female body. There is no denying that and personally it would be stupid to deny it. Denying that about myself would simply be denying who I am now, the journey I've taken to get to where I am now. To get to this place, literally and figuratively. No amount of surgery will ever erase that nor do I want it to.

It's kind of like my one undeniable link to this place, to these people. Sometimes I feel like I'm trapped between two worlds, never truly a part of either. So no matter how embarrassing or shameful some of my past as a female is to me, I still will not deny that I was. If I did then there would be no connection for me and honestly, that thought scares me sometimes.

The only thing I would ever ask in return when sharing this part of myself is that I am seen as who I see myself. A man. I rarely let folks peek into me like this because I have watched their view of me change while I spoke of having lived as a female. Suddenly they can't seem to shake this female version of me and so the male side of me becomes less noticeable. Weird huh?

Wow, I'm seriously rambling now. Sorry folks. That's all I gots for now. So I'll quit boring y'all. Lol.


Done I Think,
Brute.

P.S. The entire post above is completely from my ME place. I can not claim that other FTMs or trans folk feel same way I do. Thanks.

P.S.S. Just read your new post, Medusa and wanted to say that for me, I do not feel intrusion for me at all except when I get told that how I live is wrong. That's all. :)

QueenofSmirks, I think you get the gist of what some people find troubling, but I would like to know where anyone jumped anyone's ass and where the language is not clear- because I am certainly not seeing it.

The discussion about the good ole June Cleaver days starts on page 8. I have re-read from that point and see nothing.

I see people being very clear about what they object to and very clear that they are not attacking anyone or their relationship. This is where my big frustration lies- when people do make a very big effort to be specific and clear and we are told we are not and we are told we are attacking people.

Brutal, I bolded part of your post. Where specifically has that happened?

Medusa, not sure if your p.s was aimed at me, but I repped you instead of posting because your Moderating post said this discussion should be moved to another thread, so I didn't think I was allowed to comment. Now it appears the discussion is continuing.

another thing i appreciate about FtMs is that many of them are exploring and expressing masculinity in a very aware and 21st century way that many cis-males my age might not.

many butches are doing the same kind of mindful exploration. so are many femmes and many non-gender fixated people. so are many people of any and every gender and identity. i'm so afraid to post in this damn thread because i might accidentally exclude someone or offend someone because i cant think of every word that's necessary in order to avoid pissing someone off that it's just not enjoyable anymore.


***please assume the automatic "i am not trying to be an asshead" disclaimer***

I feel the same way. LOL!! It would be funny if it were not so NOT funny!!!


:confused:

Would like to add one more thing if I may.

It can get hard for me sometimes because if I go to a place/subdivision where it is exclusively about femmes (as example) then I will post about femmes and leave out the rest of the rainbow, so to speak. If someone gets all pissy because I left out a group then I see that as being on them. Not me. I am visiting a "subdivision" that is all about the femmes. If I visit a "subdivision" that's about the FTMs then I'll post about them and usually them alone. Same goes for female ided butches, etc.

I live in a world that is too politically correct for my taste so when I come here, I try to make damn sure that where I'm posting (the subdivision) is exclusive to that part of the rainbow. If I try to include everyone, I'll spend all damn day typing and more inlikely forget someone. Lol. While I know and understand exclusion, I don't see it as such considering it's about a specific group and not the rainbow as a whole.

So Nomad, thank you for your post because it brought that thought up and wanted to share it. Thanks.


Food For Thought,
Brute.

I don't think I have read a post before that has touched me so.

Brutal, that you own that part of yourself, the female experience (whatever that means to and for you) and chose not to erase it, in spite of the pain that it has caused you in your life; says so much about you as a person.

I admire you greatly for this.

I'll have to go back through the thread when I'm not doing this by cell phone to respond to the first part of your first paragraph above re: ass jumping, (which could be mistaken for a new fetish, if taken out of context).

As to the second part of that paragraph - about not being clear - I referenced it in 2 different posts. I talked about using phrases like "the good ole days" and "50's housewife" to describe a relationship that consists of traditional binary gender roles, which is probably only representative of about 2% of what that time period was all about, which would be a misrepresentation of the relationship being described. So, if you missed that, I'll try to find the links to those specific posts.

As to the last paragraph - I disagree. I see some people were very clear about not attacking anyone, and some not so clear. So, if you decided to take my statement and apply it to everyone including yourself, i.e. your use of "we", then I can see why we disagree. However, I did see some rather snarky responses and comments from people who were NOT clear, and mistook the INTENTION of some people's use of certain phrases and terms, and decided to make all sorts of assumptions and run with it. So, with that said, I stand behind my post.

me in blue

and thanks for sharing your thoughts. i appreciate your clearer version of my own scattered and somewhat whiny post

QueenofSmirks, thank you for your reply! I still don't quite understand, but don't want you to have to use up your time to dredge through stuff unless you want to. I think the part of not being specific was not about people who had objections.

Nomad, I have no idea why you feel the need to walk on eggshells. People do not get offended at every little thing. People have been quite specific about what is bothering them.

Brutal and Femmsational, I have never once thought of you as a couple that follow any sort of stereotypical patterns at all. I think you are quite unique and have no idea why you would think I thought you were anything but that.

The whole lesbian thing... wow... ok then. Just in case anyone is indirectly referring to my post about lesbian feminist household- that was me saying that even lesbian households may have some dynamics and/or division of labor that may look stereotypical- as in me taking out the garbage and my femme partner cooking. We just don't aspire to some past era to do so.

The next time I hear mention of June Clever I will just keep my mouth shut and go read Snow's thread.

OY!
 

Stuff like this, the whole I am afraid of X Y Z just because their opinion is different is unfair.


It paints people in a negative, ugly, tone and it's flaming the situation.

Yet, if it's felt by more than one person, and expressed respectfully...should we maybe look at that? Tease that out a bit??

Curious really.

Thoughts
 

No one is instilling fear into the thread, what has happened is people have stated different views. It's common for people to start claiming that "they are afraid" I am not saying Nomad was saying that, but her words can be and obviously have been interpreted that way.


I've lost count of how many people have referred to me as scary or have gone to say how afraid they are to post because I posted. I wanted to clarify why I said what I said.

Just wanted to clarify my post earlier since I wrote it in a hurry as I was on my way out the door.

I agree that we should all be able to go into any thread or forum on this site. However, I think, if you go into a thread that does not pertain to your lifestyle, then you need to keep an open mind while reading, and be respectful of that lifestyle while posting.

Thoughts
 

That same expectation should pertain to people posting in that particular lifestyle thread.


It's really easy to state what one's desires/needs/wants are without having to shit down the necks of others.


I believe that is what is being discussed here, I certainly do not have a say so on what rocks anyone's relationship boat, I don't like it when folks do it to me so I am pretty adamant about respecting other's likes/desires/needs/wants/dynamics, matter of fact I say RAWK ON!!!

this is completely fair. thank you for pointing it out Lady Snow. i did not intend to create negative or ugly circumstances. my tone was not inflammatory in my head. (is it ever?) :)

you've given me the chance to consider my state of mind when i made that post. i wasnt feeling singled out or disagreed with or attacked. i did not mean to indicate that anyone was being unfair with regard to something i'd said, done, expressed or otherwise. i was actually worried about not being clear or thought of as disrespectful if i wasnt all inclusive because i sometimes feel that that's the way the threads are leaning.

i should have said that i am nervous, rather than afraid --- nervous to be seen as being excluding or othering if i dont include everyone in the things i appreciate about FtMs. i have felt recently that there are those who mistake things like "I like ABC about unicorns" as an indication that the poster didnt think or acknowledge that zebras and tortoises also did ABC. if the forum is dedicated to unicorns, i comment about unicorns. it doesnt mean that i dont also love zebras.

thank you for rattling my cage. i like it when people do that. and for the record, i've never been afraid of You. inspired, yes. unsettled, yes. challenged, yes. treated fairly, yes. verklempt, yes. hot and bothered, yes. but never even once afraid. :bouquet: