Butch Femme Planet - Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

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- The Lesbian Zone (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=95)

- - Reclaiming Lesbian Pride (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3580)

You're most welcome, Heart.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heart (Post 399702)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chazz

As a Feminist, I assert that Mich Fest and women WBW events have a right to exist. As do WOC-only events, etc., etc......

Ahhh... as a feminist, this I don't agree with. I vehemently support women-only spaces, (as I do POC spaces, which may have people in them who "appear" to be as white as me). Trangender women belong in women's spaces. Woman-born-woman is an exclusionary term to my feminist mind, based upon the extreme experiences of misogyny that transwomen deal with. To me, this is a feminist, (not a gender-theory) issue. I run a shelter for battered women and teach self-defense classes to women survivors of assault. Both spaces include transgender women.

My life as a WBW lesbian/butch, has, and still does, followed a trajectory that is different from that of transwomen's lives. There are times in my life when I need to coalesce around any one, or all, of those experiences. If that is seen as "exclusionary", I'm okay with it. I see it as particularistic, but I can live with "exclusionary".

It would not occur to me to attend to the "Sisters of Color" meeting at the local LGBTQ Center. I don't feel excluded.

I too worked (for many years) in a Battered Women's Shelter. Some issues are as yet unresolved, not from my perspective, but from clients' perspectives....

I'd prefer not to have this discussion lapse into any one, or another, particularistic derail, so.....

I agree about the marginalization and the calling out. Perhaps I was personalizing.... thank you for the dialogue, warts and all. - Heart

That's the common ground we can coalesce around, then. :)

And from Jeanne Cordova of Butch Nation:
http://networkedblogs.com/lINy3

Posted on FB: This Saturday, at the BV Conference 12pm. BULLDAGGER: For Women-Identified, Female-Pronoun Using Butches. This Sunday, 12pm. "Exploring Our Masculinities While Keeping Our Feminisms." Oakland Marriott. The room is under the name Goldberg. Free and open to the public. Butch Nation will be there. Post widely.

Also on FB, posted by Krys Freeman of BV: Friday, 12pm. Town Hall Meeting -- To discuss all that has transpired in the past few weeks. Jewett Ballroom Free and open to the public. Butch Nation encouraged to attend. Post widely.

This will probably be my last post on this subject. I would prefer to focus on issues of importance to me and women who have shared my life's experience.

BTW, I'm not feeling strident, though this post may come across as same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heart (Post 399718)

Chazz is right about the pain and hurt in these discussions. Also anxiety, sadness, frustration....

To share a bit further about my experience:

Just as I recognize the privilege that transmen garner, (even when they refuse to), I also recognize the misogyny and sexism that transwomen deal with. Hate crimes and violence towards transwomen is off the charts high.

I think we may have a differing points of view about the "privilege" "transmen garner".

I don't see "passing" as a privilege for anyone. Nor do I see an assumption of male entitlement as a "privilege", either. To the extent that, that ever happens, it's buying in and selling out.

You, me, anyone can buy into any given oppressive paradigm, but does it serve us. I mean REALLY serve us? (This may be me being spirit focused, but hey....)

I'm sorry when hate crimes happen to anyone. Absolutely, ANYONE. It behooves all of us to get to the core of what causes hate crimes with an unblinking eye. I suspect we are all complicit in hate crimes, each in our own way.

I work in a field (anti-domestic violence) founded by 2nd wave feminists in the 1970s, many of whom were lesbians. The inability of many of the providers in this field to provide safety or services for transwomen who have been raped or were in abusive relationships (most often with a straight man), is deeply disturbing and divisive.

It's a much as most lesbians can do to provide for themselves, their children and one another, to the extent that they do and can. (Hell, my community has an impossible time keeping lesbian businesses open because lesbians are so short of resources.)

But, in the spirit of fairness, I promise to refer my lesbian and straight DV clients to DV shelters started, operated and financed by transwomen.

I have worked with other lgbtq advocates to help grass roots feminists shift their thinking on this. Yes, we have used "gender theory," which frankly hasn't been very useful. I did a presentation about using a more "gender neutral" lens at a conference once and the mainstram feminists in the room got up and walked out.

I'm sorry that happened to you. It must have felt awful, but people are entitled to vote with their feet.

It's clear to me that we do not have to change our feminist, anti-patriarchal frmework one jot in order to bring transwomen into safe spaces, because transwomen are very vulnerable to patriarchal oppression and danger. But that's been a hard message to get across. The feelings of suspicion, threat, and betrayal within the feminist advocacy community remains intense. I think we have to shift away from gender-speak and go back to language and tools rooted in feminism in order to continue the discussion.

I think it's okay for Feminists to have different perspectives about what constitutes "suspicion, threat, and betrayal" and any given identity. I think it's okay for women to choose, for themselves, how they wish to allocate their time and resources (where and to whom) without being pressured, cajoled or guilt tripped. The afore mentioned happens all the time in "our" current community. We are uniformly expected to jump onto the band wagon of the day, when it's all some of us can do to master our own particularistic destinies and self-understanding.

I may be a butch, but I may choose not to get involved with a "Butch Rights" movement. I can't imagine hanging out with the folks currently running BVs, for instance. This doesn't mean I'm suspicious, threatened, feeling betrayed", or wish them harm, or would be indifferent to their plight should harm befall them.... It means, my interests and proclivities lie elsewhere. Their deal doesn't speak to me. It doesn't further my understanding of myself as a woman IDed butch. Should I ignore my imperatives in the name of someone else's version of "solidarity"? Rally around other's cause(s) rather than my own? Send a check? What? ....I listen, I introspect, I choose, and then I act according to the beat of my own drummer.

One of the worst elements of 2nd Wave Feminism, in my estimation, was the pressure mostly white and/or privileged Feminists brought to bear on all women to adopt their agenda. And when "we" (lesbians, WOC, B&Fs....) didn't, we were castigated, vilified and tagged as being - %*#^@.

I see this happening, still, in the current LGBTQ constellation. It is precisely what the folks at BVs are doing. That kind of politic is wrong even in the post-modern world of abject subjectivity. Either subjectivity is equal for all, or it's a crock of diddlysquat awarded to the self-anointed, privileged few - based on what? Who is more oppressed, battered, subjected to hate crimes? That is oppression Olympics redux.

What I am reminded of, (thanks to this thread), is that patriarchy makes it hard for us to trust each other. - Heart

Exactly.... My "trust" isn't garnered when my personal agenda is set for me. Nor is it nurtured when I'm pressured or guilted into supporting people, places and things that don't "speak" to me, honor my boundaries or identity, or my take on reality. I'm a live and let live person. That's as much as I can do and stay my own course. I'll meet-up with everyone else where our imperatives intersect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anya/Georgia (Post 399176)

"Because women's work is never done and is underpaid or unpaid or boring or repetitious and we're the first to get fired and what we look like is more important than what we do and if we get raped it's our fault and if we get beaten we must have provoked it and if we raise our voices we're nagging bitches and if we enjoy sex we're nymphos and if we don't we're frigid and if we love women it's because we can't get a "real" man and if we ask our doctor too many questions we're neurotic and/or pushy and if we expect childcare we're selfish and if we stand up for our rights we're aggressive and "unfeminine" and if we don't we're typical weak females and if we want to get married we're out to trap a man and if we don't we're unnatural and if we can't cope or don't want a pregnancy we're made to feel guilty about abortion and...for lots of other reasons we are part of the women's liberation movement."

~Author unknown, quoted in The Torch, 14 September 1987

Actually, these are the words of Joyce Stevens...

Written for Women's Liberation Broadsheet, International Woman's Day, 1975.
Joyce Stevens is author of Taking the Revolution Home, Work Among Women in the Communist Party of Australia 1920 -1945 and other books.

Just wanted to give credit where credit is due...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chazz (Post 399632)

Feminism is empowering and unifying even in its diversification - not solipsistic and individualistic like gender theory.

What's individualistic about it? i am sure there are explanations that focus on individuals, but what is individualistic about it. i don't actually know what gender theory you mean, so it's hard for me to speculate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heart (Post 399156)

Right AJ, I was not at all suggesting that I expect feminism as a movement to be free of warts, nor was I suggesting that WOC have not spoken up and come to the table. But I do feel a mite nervous when we start to get all nostalgic for the "good ol' days" of the 2nd Wave.

Heart

No, there are areas of those "days" that I cannot embrace. What I know is that without the Second Wave (and the days of my Grandmother before it), we would not be having this discussion at all. By definition, "movement" includes a change in place or position- it is not static, therefore, gives rise to critical thought throughout time- as time gives us new perspectives.

We have a feminist foundation that begs us to explore and grow even when we have to re-examine ourselves and accept the warts. It was the second Wave that brought awareness of gender theory to the forefront as a feminist paridigm.

Given this, it is difficult to accept that gender theory remains a block to the entire LGBTQ population continuing to remain separate. The irony I spoke of earlier and what is at the heart of deep wounds.

This has actually come full circle for me as a butch woman. The very same tactics and male power structures of "old" are wounding me in ways within our very own community using what the Second Wave believed to be a means to heal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustJo (Post 399823)

Thanks, I appreciate it a lot. It is a quote of a quote of a quote.

I am always glad to know the origin of quotes I have come across over the years that are not atributed to the right person, in order to give credit where credit is due!

Heart, my responses are in purple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heart (Post 399835)

Chazz - My responses in blue. I understand that you wish to move on, this response is not about the content (we have places we disagree, which is fine), but it is about the tone and the kinds of divisions/accusations/justifications that come up over and over when feminism and genderism cross -- always seeming to be at cross purposes....

I think we may have a differing points of view about the "privilege" "transmen garner". I don't see "passing" as a privilege for anyone.

Nor do I - I was not referring to "passing."

I understand that your statement: "the privilege that transmen garner" was more global. I got that.... I was making a finer point, that is, that I don't see assimilation into Patriarchy as a privilege. I think the whole concept of male privilege is a misnomer. When we speak of "misogyny", we're actually speaking about a grievous power imbalance. "Male privilege" is a byproduct of that imbalance. Speaking in terms of male privilege/misogyny obscures the foundation of both - a grievous power imbalance. This exists whether one aspires to it, or not.

It's a much as most lesbians can do to provide for themselves, their children and one another, to the extent that they do and can. (Hell, my community has an impossible time keeping lesbian businesses open because lesbians are so short of resources.)

But, in the spirit of fairness, I promise to refer my lesbian and straight DV clients to DV shelters started, operated and financed by transwomen.

Huh? I do not get this statement (sarcastic?). Ouch.

Not sarcastic, an acknowledgment of fact. In one way or another, lesbians/women tend to do most of the heavy lifting while males and once-males benefit from the bounty of lesbians/women's efforts, often, without ever making a tangible contribution to the effort. If I were in need of a DV shelter, I would prefer to be in one that was started, operated and financed by lesbians. Wait, many shelters are just that. (This may not be PC to say out loud, but it's a big issue in DV circles, nevertheless. This is just one of many issues that is deemed unacceptable to discuss, so resentments fester under the surface.)

I have worked with other lgbtq advocates to help grass roots feminists shift their thinking on this. Yes, we have used "gender theory," which frankly hasn't been very useful. I did a presentation about using a more "gender neutral" lens at a conference once and the mainstram feminists in the room got up and walked out.

I'm sorry that happened to you. It must have felt awful, but people are entitled to vote with their feet.

Chazz, my point here was that gender theory was NOT going to work for all the reasons you, among others, have elucidated, and that I agree with. I'm talking about my learning curve and you seem to be chastizing me.

None of my comments have been directed at you personally. I'm speaking to the issues you raise.

I think it's okay for Feminists to have different perspectives about what constitutes "suspicion, threat, and betrayal" and any given identity. I think it's okay for women to choose, for themselves, how they wish to allocate their time and resources (where and to whom) without being pressured, cajoled or guilt tripped.

Nothing I have said was intended to pressure or guilt trip. Not my style.

Again, not talking about you, personally, Heart.

Guilt tripping is pervasive within the community in overt and covert ways. There is an implicit expectation, for instance, that we should all be of the same mind about all sorts of gender theory doctrine. We're not all of the same mind, of course, but challenging any of the doctrine elicits recriminations, or accusations of transphobia. That's intimidation and censorship.

You may be focused on the unaddressed misogyny (which exists by the ream), but there are other issues of importance to some of us that are not safe to address. No, I'm not going there in this conversation. I'll just say the toe dancing gets exhausting, and I'm not always sure the myth of "community" is worth it. I know many other lesbians feel this way, too. This is a part of the reason many of "us" feel marginalized - our "voices" have been silenced. This is not only oppressive, it's anti-solidarity.

The afore mentioned happens all the time in "our" current community. We are uniformly expected to jump onto the band wagon of the day, when it's all some of us can do to master our own particularistic destinies and self-understanding.

I'm sensing that the direction in which I took the discussion feels to you like a derail of the issue of lesbian pride and more specifically of lesbian BUTCH pride. Is that true? Coming off of the BV/BN thing, I get that, but this thread is not only about butches, but about all of us who are lesbians, and also those of us who are feminists.

This is not about you, or me, personally.... It would feel like a derail if "we" focused on people who do not celebrate Lesbian Pride or identify as lesbian. Especially, since some of "us" lesbians have done both for an entire lifetime, and not as we traversed a hierarchical gender continuum.

My interests and proclivities lie elsewhere. Their deal doesn't speak to me. It doesn't further my understanding of myself as a woman IDed butch. Should I ignore my imperatives in the name of someone else's version of "solidarity"? Rally around other's cause(s) rather than my own? Send a check? What? ....I listen, I introspect, I choose, and then I act according to the beat of my own drummer.

This doesn't sound strident -- just defensive, as if you felt attacked or dismissed by the issues I raised. Of course you get to choose your focus, your imperative, and act accordingly. I don't know how what I raised opposes that, unless it was my belief that transwomen should be allowed at MWMF. It just doesn't strike me as very feminist for a transwoman to be barred, while transmen, male-pronoun-using, transmasculine, male-butch-3rd gendered people have access.

I'm not personally defensive - I am defending lesbian pride, lesbian/butch identity and heritage.

You think transwomen should be allowed at MWMF - I think Mich Fest's WBW mission statement should be honored and respected. There are too many places in this community where WBW aren't honored, respected or given "ground" to stand on in the fullness of their/our particularism. One event a year doesn't seem like much to ask for. (I've never attended Mich Fest, nor do I ever intend to.)

As to "transmen, male-pronoun-using, transmasculine, male-butch-3rd gendered people" having access to Mich Fest.... Apparently, a decision was made by the Mich Fest powers-that-be to include all WBW regardless of how they currently identify. It might not be your choice or mine (not necessarily for the same reasons), but Mich Fest isn't our pop stand. Me, I respect other people's boundaries, as I insist they respect mine.

One of the worst elements of 2nd Wave Feminism, in my estimation, was the pressure mostly white and/or privileged Feminists brought to bear on all women to adopt their agenda. And when "we" (lesbians, WOC, B&Fs....) didn't, we were castigated, vilified and tagged as being - %*#^@.

Am I doing that?

Heart, nothing I've said reflects on you personally.... Only you can answer the "Am I doing that?" question for yourself. I have no way of knowing.

What I am reminded of, (thanks to this thread), is that patriarchy makes it hard for us to trust each other. - Heart

Exactly.... My "trust" isn't garnered when my personal agenda is set for me. Nor is it nurtured when I'm pressured or guilted into supporting people, places and things that don't "speak" to me, honor my boundaries or identity, or my take on reality.

Again, is that what you have experienced from my posts here? Because truly that was not my intention or goal. And I wonder, feel both mystified, confused, and - okay yes, upset that we are in this place.

We're not in a bad place. We're dialogging.

When I talk feminism, I highlight issues of race/gender that feminism erased or essentialized. When I talk gender theory, I highlight issues of feminism and patriarchy that gender theory erased and denigrated. So, lesbians think I'm being anti-feminist, and queers think I'm being anti-genderist. Guess I can't win. But none of it - NONE of it is intended to personally erase anyone else's experience or choices. It's all in the interest of dialogue, intersection, and growth. I was kinda hoping I wouldn't have to make that disclaimer in this thread.

Heart, I trust your good intentions. No disclaimers are required.

I'm not calling you out. I'm calling out any and all assumptions, by anyone, that "we" have to be on the same line of gender or Feminist theory to be mutually supportive around some specific issues. The 'some specific issues' point is key to me.

I evolved in and out of gender theory. I don't see myself using it as a template for my life again. It doesn't speak to me on many levels.

I also don't believe my Feminism has to be anyone else's Feminism.... Which is to say, you'll never hear my Feminist-self saying you're anti-feminist.... As to queers thinking you're an anti-genderist because you won't drink the Kool-Aid unexamined, in it's entirety.... That's one of the things that turned me off to gender theory - i.e. it's adherents' insistence on unquestioning, doctrinal fervency.

I don't trust anything, or anyone, that insists upon unquestioning allegiance - OR ELSE! I had a belly full of that stuff as a Catholic. PLEEEEK ! ! ! The only thing I'm unconditionally loyal to is critical thinking.

Chazz, Thanks for your responses, your efforts to clarify, and your willingness to dialogue. I know there was some personal clouding, and appreciate that you took the time.

Heart

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heart (Post 400253)

Chazz, Thanks for your responses, your efforts to clarify, and your willingness to dialogue. I know there was some personal clouding, and appreciate that you took the time.

Heart

You're welcome, Heart. (f)

"Clouding", maybe so, necessarily cautious, likely and understandably.

I think you've been unfairly roughed-up by people unwilling to listen, hear, or engage respectfully. Their loss because you have a lot of insightful and thought provoking things to share. I learn a lot from you.

Thank you, too, for putting up with my terse writing style. The unfortunate byproduct of too much report writing for Da Sistem.

Just wanted to chime in to say that I appreciate the respectfulness in this thread. It can get so hard to exchange ideas on such sensitive topics. I am taking in many different ideas from the posts as they are giving me more insight into how each of us has experienced things from our own lenses. Also, there isn't any of the "hidden gem" slights wrapped in sugar that only serve to divide us instead of listening to each other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtLastHome (Post 400361)

It is refreshing and I, too, appreciate it.

It really helps to be able to express many different opinions and perspectives and reminders that are a tribute to the diverse group that we are. And I also appreciate that we can be honest about our own truths and see them as a bridge to each other and to further dialogue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martina (Post 399837)

Postmodernism is a mix of philosophies: Primarily, subjectivism and epistemic relativism. These philosophies hold that no epistemic standard is defensible, true or factual.

A postmodernist might argue “that modern science is nothing more than a “myth,” a “narration”, a “social construction.” (Professor Steven Luper, Trinity University)

Gender theory is the offspring of postmodernism. One of its primary tenets is that gender performativity is a way of destabilizing/deconstructing gender conventions.

Feminists hold that gender conventions are fictional, grotesque myths; and that re-enacting them in any context perpetuates oppression.

Gender performativity is an individual, self-focused activity – even when performed in a group…. Models at a Playboy photo shoot are individually re-inscribing gender constructs even when posing for a group photograph.

The enactment of real-world, gender conventions - of performing/embodying fictional constructs – makes them appear (feel) natural, organic, real. This reinforces gender stereotypes whether the performativity is meant to be parody or not; whether it’s meant to be a burlesque metaphor or not.

African Feminist and author, Nnameka, had this to say about sex roles: Western European and North American epistemologies since ‘post structuralism’s [now referred to as postmodernism] focus on discourse and aesthetics instead of social action encourages the egocentricity and individualism that undermines collective action.’ (Nnameka, 2003, p.364).

:vigil:

I was cruising some of the older posts (lol cruising) and noticed that there was a bit of discussion about feminist reading material.

Is there any other reading material/movies that anyone finds particularly prideful or that portrays lesbians in a positive light? I know one of the major critiques of lesbian representation in the media is that they're either crazy or they die at the end of the film. I always struggle with that.

As a side note, I spent the past five days in a very small town and was openly talked about when my friend kissed me. It was a tiny peck, but apparently all the old men in the firehall saw fit to flap their gums about it. I refused to let them make me feel bad about who I am. There's my prideful moment for the week.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy (Post 400555)

Call me a sap, but for a happy, stress-free lesbian movie night, I never get enough of The Incredibly True Adventures of Two Girls In Love. The butch/femme girls bumbling into love are adorable. The butch lesbian aunt and her femme partner, (and exes), are perfectly portrayed. It's sweet, and the lesbians get to be happy. It was one of the first times I saw movie images that looked like people I know.

Most of the novel type things I love are probably out of print :blink:

I do like the tv series Exes and Ohs - is like a lesbian version of "Friends", sweet, cute, and very funny.

I'm sorry, but I just can't take it....I have to say SOMETHING

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtLastHome (Post 400361)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobi (Post 400371)

One of you please help me understand this.

How can either of you talk about how "refreshing" it is that everyone is being so "respectful" in this thread?

There is blatant bigotry of transwomen going on in this thread. Did you guys just miss that part, or are you ok with that part? Really, I want to understand this.

There is more than one lesbian transwoman on this message board. They are a PART of our community. Do you not think they are reading the words that have been written here? Do you have any freaking concept as to how it might be making them feel?

I agree with you, AtLast, there is no "hidden gem" slights...there are right out there in the open!

Yes, I know that June handled this, but I cannot sit idly by and not have some member of the community acknowledge how shitty this is, so I am doing it, even though I do not belong in this thread.

Chazz, we have lesbian transwomen here. They are an important part of our community. Please consider that the next time you speak about "once-male", people.

(P.S. I will not be available to post again until Sunday, Good nIght, all).

I'm sorry to intrude on the discussion, though perhaps apologies are pointless when I've already waltzed in...but I'm sorry. It's difficult to stand by, especially when we've already got a thread going on the issue, when such blatant transphobia is displayed. I fully support lesbians claiming lesbian pride, but what I don't support is doing it by degrading transwomen and claiming that transwomen lesbians are not "real" lesbians or "real" women. To me that is utterly and completely transphobic. I know that June addressed part of what I have to say, but I don't think the point can be stressed enough.

@Chazz

Quote:

You think transwomen should be allowed at MWMF - I think Mich Fest's WBW mission statement should be honored and respected. There are too many places in this community where WBW aren't honored, respected or given "ground" to stand on in the fullness of their/our particularism. One event a year doesn't seem like much to ask for. (I've never attended Mich Fest, nor do I ever intend to.)

Claiming that transwomen are not born women, and that their presence among lesbians/women that they deem to be their sisters is not "honouring" or "respecting" women who were born with XX chromosomes, is so utterly transphobic. Transwomen are women in every way. They may have been born with the wrong chromosomes and in the wrong body, but they are women through and through. They are not lesser women than women who were born female-bodied. I fail to see how you think that excluding one component of the lesbian community is somehow benefiting that community. That kind of mentality wreaks of the typical Janice Raymond bullshit of transwomen somehow being a threat to other women, or being sent to "infiltrate" women's spaces in order to corrupt or destroy them.

Quote:

Not sarcastic, an acknowledgment of fact. In one way or another, lesbians/women tend to do most of the heavy lifting while males and once-males benefit from the bounty of lesbians/women's efforts, often, without ever making a tangible contribution to the effort.

And here you ignore the history of the G/L liberation movement, the same way you ignored the history of transmen in the butch community some months back. Or perhaps you just like to omit the portions of history that don't suit you and your ideas. Transwomen in particular have been a part of the struggle for gay and lesbian rights since the beginning of the movement. They were among the pioneers who struggled against discrimination and police brutality exhibited against gays, lesbians and alongside them transwomen/drag queens of all sexual orientations. Transwomen in particular were thrown under the bus despite the sacrifices they made. So when you sit there and claim that transwomen have just sat back and waited for lesbians and women born XX to fight their battles for them, I'm sorry but you're twisting history so perversely that it is nothing short of insult to the transwomen who sacrificed so much.