.......:goodpost:......

Sometimes I think that politics is like an onion. Some people sit at the centre with very strong views, cut away, and angrily try to draw everyone in. Tears come fast and strong.
Others are on the outside peel ring and see it is the biggest and the easiest to peel off, peel by peel. Tears still come but you can step away, take a breath and think how deep you want to go.

Well, Biden stuck his foot in his mouth again at a fundraiser hosted by a prominent member of Seattle’s LBBTQIA community.

While giving his speech he gave an example of “how far the LGBT community has come” by saying that just 5 years ago people in Seattle would still be able to laugh at a gay waiter. :blink:

Who writes his stuff? Seattle has always been full of us, and no one would have put up with homophobic crap 5 years ago! I know he means well, but at some point this “open mouth insert foot” spiel of his needs to stop before he offends every group he needs to vote for him!

Censorship
 

CENSORED..... CENSORED..... (rflmao)

Agree that she's inappropriately suited for President, but don't see lack of class as the reason. She is not stateswomenly.

Help me out here: what does "stateswomanly" mean and why isn't Harris enough of what it does mean?

As for "class" in politics, that probably went out when Henry Cabot Lodge died, whenever that was. Three names are always very "classy".

Bernie is further to the left economically. They're both pretty left-wing by current Democratic standards, but Bernie is more open about moving towards democratic socialism as a long-term goal, which is why I'm still drinking out of a Bernie coffee mug at this very moment and have been for the past four years.

I honestly wouldn't want to put the two of them on the same ticket. My primary reasoning for that is that I'd much sooner have one of them in the Oval Office and the other as their ally in the Senate; making one of them the VP would be a bit of a waste, IMO. The only situation in which I'd want to see both of them on the same ticket is if it turns out that they can't both get their supporters on the same page about getting behind whichever one of them ends up being the left-wing primary candidate: they unfortunately have very different demographics of support and it's not clear that either one's voters would get behind the other. It's fucking incomprehensible but apparently a lot of Bernie supporters have Biden of all fucking people as their second choice and apparently a lot of Warren supporters have Harris as their second choice. (If it's not clear, Warren is my second choice, and I will get behind whichever of Bernie or Warren shapes up to be the one in the best position to beat the bourgeoisie-approved candidate.)

Most Americans don't actually have any ideological commitments; they generally have a political tribe at most. If you actually poll members of the general public to ask about specific policy ideas rather than overarching political labels, left-wing policies are frequently extremely popular and right-wing policies are frequently extremely unpopular (to the point that it's not unusual for a voter confronted with information on what right-wing candidates actually support to have difficulty believing what they're seeing). For instance, the single most socialist thing Bernie has proposed so far is his plan to require companies to pay their employees not simply wages but ownership, which is both far more socialist than anything else in American politics at the moment and, believe it or not, actually a very popular idea.

Also, we are actively in a moment of obvious crisis where everyone who isn't in a bubble knows, if only in the sense that they don't like to think about it, that the world is kind of actively ending while we sit around feeling helpless to do anything about it. What I'm saying is, now is the exact time to offer an alternative to the status quo, because the political landscape right now is not simply about the traditional left-right distinction but also about a significant chunk of the electorate wanting any alternative to the sinking ship we're on. If we run a status quo candidate, it continues to look like only Trump and the fascists he represents are even admitting that there's a crisis. The situation is ripe to shatter the veil of misinformation surrounding what capitalism and socialism even are, and to start advancing the notion that opposing the exploiter class is not only possible but also legitimate. Which is to say, we get to start mainstreaming the idea that the material interests of the small minority of employers, landlords, and other exploiters are inherently anathema to the interests of the vast majority of people whose income comes from their labor, and that it is these material interests that determine who shares your survival interests and thus whom it is possible to peacefully coexist with, rather than membership in a racial, ethnic, or national tribe.

I'm not totally sure what you're trying to say here--whether you're suggesting that a candidate should be chosen on the basis of being a "centrist" and thus able to appeal to "swing voters" or simply that we should watch our infighting--but I will use this opportunity to make something clear.

Donald Trump is not even the disease. He is a symptom. Biden, for instance, is building his campaign around the message that the only problem is Donald Trump and that once we're rid of him everything will be hunky-dory again. The problem is that the "normal" we would go back to was the exact disease that led to Trump in the first place: Trump did not create our current political environment; he was created by it. Biden could defeat Trump in 2020 because Trump is simply that much of a god damn embarrassment, but he has already committed himself to letting the disease (capitalism and its death throes) fester, and the exact crises that led to Trump's election will simply continue to progress until the next election comes along and the public is even more desperate for any escape from the status quo Biden represents.

NEIN, NYET, NIX, NADA, NO

The two-party system isn't simply a political reality, it is a mathematical reality. The Spoiler Effect is so insurmountable that it would be more feasible to mount a hostile takeover of one of the two existing Actual Parties than it would be for a third party to win a presidential general election. Thankfully, it's looking like Bernie has a perfectly realistic shot at the nomination. His performance in 2016 wasn't half-bad considering he was up against one of the most powerful people in the Democratic Party at the time and the party machine was bending over backwards to coronate Clinton, and he's dealing with far less formidable competition this time around.

My primary concern with Harris is that she is a cop. (Well, that, and the capitalism, but I digress.)

also shout out to Katzchen, good to see you again too

:wine:What was meant in my term, "not stateswomanly" refers to her apparent inability to maintain a calm, reserved, self assured demeanor. She seems to always be on the verge of flying off the handle.

This type of personality will probably not work well in International Relations. A candidate with that is "statespersonly" will be better to patch up what Trump has done to our relations, especially with Canada, Germany, and Great Britain. The candidates that fit that bill include Biden and Sanders also some way down on the polls like Bennet.
It is not an easy quality to put into words; however, "class" doesn't work either.
Class infers "bourgeoisie."

We also need to find one candidate that most Democrats and some people on the fence or passed off Republicans will vote for.

We don't need to follow the example of the Far Left and have a multi-candidate splinter resulting in a win for the other side.

I'd argue that "far left" is the only way out of this mess, but I'd also argue that what is needed is for one of our two most left-wing primary candidates to take the Democratic nomination and actually square off with Trump as one of the two Actual Candidates as opposed to trying to come in as a third-party spoiler.

As far as getting someone that "most Democrats" and "some people on the fence" or "pissed off Republicans" will vote for, I would argue that a move to the center can't do this effectively, because the center doesn't actually offer any reason to vote for it. It doesn't have a narrative or meaningful answers, and is associated with the maintenance of a toxic status quo. It can't convert people who weren't already onboard, and it also can't win over the massive chunk of people who are so disillusioned with the status quo that they won't go to the polls at all if the status quo and Trump are their only options. Moving left and offering an actual left-wing narrative and answer for our crises is the only thing with the power to do that. We live in times where, again, the traditional left-right distinction is ripe to be supplanted by a status quo-vs-populist distinction instead. The fash are already pushing right-populism aggressively, and the only thing that can actually defeat it long-term is left-populism.

I need to read this entire thread...but till I do, a couple of thoughts.

1. A shit house rat would be better than the Cheeto.

2. My current favorite is Elizabeth Warren

3. All of the Democratic Presidents I remember were centrist. I dream of a Socialist Utopia, or at least the programs that LBJ put in place, healthcare and education for everyone and no children in cages.

4. I will vote for whomever the Dems run for President

5. I think Kamala Harris is very elegant and poised...don't see the classless/unstatespersonish angle

6. What the hell is it going to take to get Trump out of there, though, I am not sure Pence would be any better

7. I have heard whisperings that Trump is going to drop Pence for 2020 and run ....Ivanka as VP...:canoworms:

Perhaps, you misunderstand what I mean by Far Left. In my understanding, the Far Left are the parties that include the Trotskyists and Left Anarchists not what is being referred to in popular political rhetoric today. If you are indeed speaking the same parties as I am, then we need to have a real conversation.

The U.S. is not, in any way, in shape to have a revolution. The true left does not have the support needed. Now, if you're talking Sanders and Democratic Socialism, maybe the country can entertain the idea. Only maybe, but Bernie doesn't have the backing, polls reveal that centrists would be more likely to be successful.

I feel that we need to, above all, defeat Trump else this current Fascist course continue. However, there are leftists who believe that the more right-wing a climate, the more likely a revolution will succeed. Personally, I prefer not to tempt fate.

Pence is as much of a right-wing zealot as Trump, maybe worse. Ivanka for VP, unbelievable?! Though, not much can shock me now. Maybe the secret meetings Trump had with Putin were about how to turn a regime into a Plutocracy or Aristocracy. Just kidding roflol.

Socialist utopia? Socialism is no utopia, no government is. They all need much work to succeed, yes?

I agree about Pence, he creeps me out. Who knows what the hell goes on in the secret meetings. I have long suspected they want to be Bond villains and are planning their secret island...but I think we can agree Trump wants to be King.

Utopia is a dream...not possible I agree. Yes, government is a lot of work. It seems that Capitalism, pure Socialism and even Capitalism look good on paper, but you put people in the mix and they are a disaster. A mixture might work, but that puts us back with the Centrists. As a kid I wanted to Communist until I realized they served the same food at every restaurant...on the other hand, I want everyone to have food and shelter and healthcare and education. The US is so huge and diverse it presents problems that smaller populations don't.

..
Unless Trump switches horses in midstream and picks Ivanka for VP, I think she can kiss any aspirations for public office goodbye at this point!

OMG, I hope so! She has always creeped me out, but her Lotita on the Prarie thing at the G-whatever, flirting with her dad made me sick.

Is she even smart enough to know she's being snubbed I wonder?

How the Hell did a greasy fat-fingured ignorant buffoon come to a position where he can murder tens of millions of people with the wave of his hand.
Americans, as a whole, are responsible for this mess.

Fix this please and stop complaining about "others" opining on the damage that the Government and its policies are inflicting. You're a "world power" and the damage and the incredibly ignorant polices affect us all. This is not just an "American" planet.

And now Trump has got a buddy in the UK. Twice as smart, but just as crazy. At least the Brits get to listen to articulate insanity.

make that " fat-fingered "

Well, Collette, I don't think Trump did win. I think the elections were compromised. I think its easy to point fingers at us, we have very different issues than Canada (huge diverse population)....and Russia, etc is not trying to topple Canada. I daily do everything I can to help immigrants and to fight to try to make sure we have a different outcome in the next election. I do not think this is an American planet.

Its early, I am on cup of coffee number one, but I must say, your post infuriates me. I did not vote for him, I work for an immigration law firm, I volunteer translating for marches, I have thrown up in the middle of the street and fainted trying to stop for profit prisons. We are not all just sitting here whining about our situation.

Stop blaming and step off.

Wow.

We (USA) are living this every single day. Living with this POS ruining our country, destroying our reputation in the world, putting fucking CHILDREN in cages, threatening to start WWIII, kissing up to dictators....on and on and on.

I have (as most of us do) some form of PTSD from several years of watching this play out. We know, should the POS be impeached, we may be in even WORSE trouble with Pence; you see, POS has no soul, but Pence? Pence wants to kill us!

What is your solution? I mean you seem to have thought about this a lot...what is your solution? Stage a coup? Take to the streets? With one of the worlds strongest armies, do you see that accomplishing anything at all? Well??

We are trapped in this nightmare (yes, everyone in the world), but I see no other country stepping up to take down this dictator, do you? Oh yeah, that’s right...it’s because we step up and protect the world! When it’s us needing the protection, when it’s us needing the solution, we sure do get a bunch of fucking whiney people showing up to tell us how wrong we are!

So much for civil conversation!

I’m sorry Medusa, i’ll Step out of this thread.

Please don't step aside ~ other peoples ignorance is their issue ~ I respect your patriotism tinker :) as a PROUD American we need to stand strong together and not to turn away because of a ignorant comment We have pride , integrity , unity. Hence the FREEDOM we share as Americans. I enjoy your posts. ** here have some tea and enjoy the day ** :tea:

Yes Ms. Tinker! Please stay!

"We are trapped in this nightmare (yes, everyone in the world), but I see no other country stepping up to take down this dictator, do you? Oh yeah, that’s right...it’s because we step up and protect the world! When it’s us needing the protection, when it’s us needing the solution, we sure do get a bunch of fucking whiney people showing up to tell us how wrong we are!" Ms Tinkerbelly

Alright, so who is going to step up when even the mildest criticism brings this kind of thin- skinned and angry response and others making references to "Patriotism". Agreeing with policies is not "patriotism". Disagreeing with those who question policies is not "patriotism". Chauvinism is not patriotism.

Ok, Roll back the tanks.

Just because someone says an onion stinks doesn't mean they need grow a sweeter onion. Just means it may be time to stop denying that that onion stinks or claiming that only you have he right to say so; or that you're going to keep defending that stinking onion from any "foreigner" who says it stinks.

We all share his planet. I'm not sure why having more military "might" and economic "clout" morally entitles Americans to make life and death decisions for all of us without having to explain, rationalize and even apologize for decisions taken.

You can make all the earth-shattering moves your might permits but don't think i will sit quietly, idly by. This is our planet, too. You did this; you fix it. I promise to applaud and be grateful.

Ms Tinkerbelly, surely you aren't going to leave the thread!!!! This is exactly the sort of dialogue/debate we SHOULD be having. Free flowing discourse is the life-blood of ideas and, even, eventual solutions...how else will we ever get there?

So you personally have control over everything the government of Canada does?

Cut us some slack, we are in Hell.

I don't think the US should tell anyone else how to live or what to do. I don't believe in a large military. I hate it in fact. WE (the US) have zero moral high road and honestly never have had. Though, I agree many US citizens think we do or should. :fastdraq:

I dislike the term American used for citizen of the United States. The Continent is America. Its awkward to say Statesian or USean....In Spanish the term is "estadounidense". Growing up in Argentina, I was taught that we are all Americans. And we are. North Americans, South Americans, Central Americans.

~
 

Discuss, share views, debate, all ways of communication. Insulting, negativity, ignorance, are not forms of dialogue of an intelligent conversation, or informative . Your post made me see how blindsided you are . Please be nice, we are all living in the same world. Loud abrasive behavior is never heard.

I'd like to say this as politely as I can: Canadian or not Canadian, my views likely represent the views of the vast majority of world population outside of the USA and a fair percentage of those within.

Individually you each know who you are and where you stand; there is no reason for you to take my remarks personally. There is no plural form of the word "you" but there is no reason to take it singularly unless it really does apply.

I'm done on this topic. The messenger is shot.

Bernie Saunders is going to be on Jimmy kimmel tonight. Might be worth a watch.

I don't mind if Canada yells at me, i deserve it. I am not doing everything i possibly can to fight Trump.

I talk a lot of shit online and i have donated to a lot of causes and candidates but every time i find out about an opportunity to volunteer or phone bank or protest i am already scheduled for something else.

I tell myself that working in the library counts as activism, so i have kind of over-committed to that, which is why i'm always over-scheduled </end excuse font>

At some point we are going to have to do what Puerto Rico did. There will come a day when there are more people in the streets than not. I tell myself I'll show up for that, at least.

But look what it took to get Puerto Rico to that point: they caught the government laughing about three thousand hurricane deaths.

We have seen the law enforcement laughing about abusing asylum-seekers, which is just as bad, but it doesn't touch the white people.

I fear that the only way out of this disaster lies through a worse disaster. A disaster that hurts enough white people to piss them off. Something has to piss them off to the point where they'll get mad at the same people they paid to block progress against the thing that just broke them.

"I know i elected you so you could tell me this exact thing was a hoax, but you should have known better! I demand to speak to your manager!"

Barring that:

191 days to Iowa caucus
220 days to Super Tuesday
355 days to the nomination

Found this today, i feel better :superfunny:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EAfyA8mX...jpg&name=small

This isn't a debate it's a Biden bashing ~ they are all patting their backs and bashing ~ it's sickening no one is saying any way they will make a change we know what has to change they don't say HOW ~ I'm embarrassed for them ~ I do like this Mr. Yang if anything he would be great in congress

2020 Vision-
 

2 Debates @ MSNBC-
2 Debates @ CNN-

The 20 candidates need corrective glasses/contacts/reality exams.

Ks- :annoyed:

I loved Stephen Colbert's review of the debates lol

The Debates - The musical
 

gotta love motown, and their take on the debates

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsWQiE4N648

LOVED this.......:hangloose:

Gun Control (...)
 

Two days of back-to-back carnage in two different US cities (El Paso, Texas & Dayton, Ohio) involving the lightning rod issue affecting American society: Gun Control.



I'm hoping that this lightning rod issue, among other vital issues (1st and foremost, canning the GOP party and saying 'goodbye' to the T^^^P administration), of Gun Control gets the attention it deserves, politically, because the Gun Lobby is controlled primarily by the GOP, I believe, and de-fanging the Gun Lobby - the NRA. No doubt, this is a tough thing to do, but in light of the carnage of criminal gun assault cases across the contiguous states of America and the twin issue of Police Brutality, I hope some presidential candidate in the Democratic Party will emerge with a viable and reasonable plan to address both issues, as well as the Immigration Crisis at the borders and the state sanctioned criminal mistreatment of those who seek safety in America.

I keep hoping that Democratic Senator Castro (from Texas) will emerge from the pack and present the most solid compelling case to vote him in as Pres. of the US, because I'm not sure other Democratic contenders are building the most compelling case to seat a member of the Democratic Party as POTUS.

<<<<<<<~~~ Voting BLUE (Democratic Party Ticket) in 20/20.

I heard on NPR this morning that Gov. Jay Inslee is running for President. I think he has an progressive vision concerning climate change issues. As well, too, he is supportive toward LGBTQ community issues. Not sure where he stands on Immigration but I am guessing he has experience in that domain, as well.

Biden expressed sympathy for the people of Michigan and Houston at a fundraiser last night.

The mass shootings were in El Paso and Ohio. :seeingstars:

I have no words.