Hi Guy,

I'm not trying to start an argument here, but I'm interested in knowing where you feel people in here were being disrespectful? Actually, to be more specific, are you implying that people were being disrespectful to trans folks? If so, in which way? I'm not saying it didn't happen, but my focus was elsewhere.

Hi Stephanie,


I think by being condecending towards the fifties lifestyle, just because someone does not agree with it, is disrespectful.

I wasn't condescending toward it. I am fine with it unless you or someone thinks it is something to be promoted, some ideal to be emulated. You want to recommend to your daughter that she should defer to her husband because he is a guy?

Well thanks Guy for the clarification. In terms of FTM and trans people, they don't all share the same views or live the same way, so I don't understand the connection with FTMS and 50s lifestyle and how that would be disrespectful to FTMS and trans people. None of my objections have anything to do with any specific gender or any individual relationships at all.

I think this going back and forth is leading to another derail. I am done.

Confused
 

It's not a contest, it's a discussion that needed to be had that has now evolved into another thread with lots of value.

No one that I know of or am aware of is attempting to police how you or anyone else is living their lifestyle. I am unsure why this is so hard to understand or how it can be communicated any further.

No one that I know of or am aware of is attempting to police how you or anyone else is living their lifestyle


It sure feels that way to me, and I am sure I am not alone in this, as other members have tried to explain why they are "afraid" to post or feel "judged" for their lifestyle.

Still confused
 

No one has done these things, I promise I have looked. I know that I personally have not come from that space.

I still don't get the whole "afraid" scenario, it's odd to me because no one in here has been frightening, mean or scary..

I am truly trying to understand where this assumption has rooted from.

I don't really have anything else to say about this. I didn't say you (Snow) personally.

There is an exuberance that I feel in my attraction to the Ftms and TG Butches that I am endeared to that I simply never feel with anyone else. Somehow it brings out in me an enthusiasm for life, for sex, for being the girl that I am. It makes me want to sing this song to Hym.........


and trust me I never feel that desire with bio men, women or other girls.... :cheesy:

I don't think I can explain it any better than that.

Brutal, i read this and i had to stop right there...because i have an issue with a word that you used in your post.Shame. One word. I did not want to respond to your post here, in public, how i felt or why i was bothered by it.
First, because i didn't (and don't now) want to hurt your feelings, or embarrass you, or take away from the true heartfelt feelings that you had to share with everyone here. I thank you for what you shared.

Two, because it is so personal and i appreciate how difficult it can be to open up to a public forum. Lastly, i wanted other people to hear the important parts of your message and what you had to convey and i didn't want to stir the pot unecessarily. You said it so well and i didn't
want to take away from the positive response that you received or draw away from that attention. (just for my beef with the one word.) I still don't want the attention or the work it takes to follow up on posts.

I share many similar feelings. I will not claim them to be the same as yours because i want to be clear that these are just my personal feelings.

it is a fact, for me, that the denial of my past is not congruent with the whole of who i really am today. Therefore, for me, it can be such a struggle, sometimes, to whip my cock out to perfect strangers and then be frustrated as to why the hell it should matter to anyone other than a woman i would be intimate with. In some cases it does matter.i.e. for personal safety...is one reason. There are different reasons why i do come out to the public.

However, it usually has to be decided or when and if i feel that it is necessary. The word shame bothers me because I personally am not ashamed of who i was as a butch or a girl growing up. nor, am i ashamed of being an FTM. I wasn't in control of how i was born
I don't believe you are ashamed either because of what you posted. And i am not going to assume that you are ashamed that you were once female.
I am not sure.

Shame is not a good word to use. Nor, is it a good feeling. To me, the word shame implies blame. As if, i should be ashamed of who i once was because i was female. And to be ashamed of who i was...would imply that i should be ashamed of who i am now.
In addition, shame could imply that i have done something wrong. And i have not done anything wrong when it comes to me and my own evolution. And i wholeheartedly refute that with a passion. And to be honest, sometimes this is reason enough to come out to the public or a person. Also, being female is not something to be ashamed of either. So, that also has to be explained and defended. It isn't easy either.

Embarrassed or shy to come out to the public or to a person...is another word and emotion entirely.

I hope that I have not offended you by sharing my feelings here, if i have...i will apologize in advance. And thank you for sharing Brutal. I just don't want you to be ashamed or to own that shame. It is not yours to own. Nor mine.

DMW

And talk about derailing a thread...i have drerailed this thread myself. SHeeet.

And then, there is the other stuff...i don't know if i want to try and go back to grasp those feelings again and then to understand them and then to explain that right now. I don't know if i have the energy for it. Nor, the right words to do so in order to be effective.

OMG..that is so funny...ok...ok...i am listening to the song now....omg that is funny.
Thank God for femmes. A peacock hugh? too damn good. too damn apropo...Love it

Um, Guy, with all due respect, there are transwomen that are lesbians. Therefore, by definition, why wouldn't there be posts about lesbians that happen to be transwomen in the Trans zone?

To be fair, though, this particular thread is NOT about transwomen; rather, it is about what attracts someone to transmen. Please remember us transwomen in the future, though. Thanks

Snow! I'm so not ignoring your post!! My head is giving me fits right now and because I just blabbed all over this thread about language, I really should wait this head ache out.

Also, I should have not posted to you about teasing out anything cause I didn't mean the scared of part. But that's how it appears....sloppy I was...


I promise to get back to you when I'm not scrambled so bad!!!




j

First, let me put a little disclaimer in here: I am only referring to myself when I post my reponse here and I intend no disrespect to anyone who disagrees or sees things differently than I do.

That being said... I am a post top-op FTM. I also consider myself genderqueer because I don't always feel completely male and I have no interest in lower surgery. I do refer to myself as a lesbian at times, although queer may be a more accurate term. So my question is (again, no disrespect intended) why shouldn't an FTM who also considers himself a lesbian post in the trans zone? Still trans, just uses a different label than some other FTMs? Plus, although I am FTM, my past girlfriends still considered, and referred, to themselves as lesbians. They just happen to be lesbians who were in love with a transman.

Another point to consider is many FTMs are just starting their journey and may not be comfortable stepping outside of the lesbian label, and some may never be comfortable stepping outside of that label. Many of them are in lesbian relationships and are happy that way. It doesn't mean they are not trans and it doesn't mean they shouldn't feel comfortable posting in the trans zone. Trans is trans regardless of where on the trans spectrum you are and regardless if you call yourself a lesbian or not. Transgender no longer refers to transforming from one gender to solely another. It now includes a very very wide umbrella of people.

Sorry - just had to throw in my 2 cents.

-A lesbian transman

I know I'm not Brute and I know my brain is scrambled BUT.....lol


The shame he was talking about is not general. It's specific to certain...things that have happened TO him in his journey to him.

I'll leave it at that I just thought that might help understand it wasn't shame of the journey. He may have more to say after he parks his truck.



....must shut up julie!!!

The reason I rarely, if ever get involved in threads like this - or even bother to read through them is this: it is f-ing impossible to qualify what you have to offer of *yourself* without offending someone. In fact, the qualifying is tedious.

Obviously people speak only from their own experience, as themselves.

And it's a forum, meaning anyone who feels s/he has something to contribute should. Some people are a-holes. Some are misunderstood. Some are early in h/is process, or young, or insecure, and project their own "shoulds", even inadvertently, and although it is judgmental, the person hasn't the capacity to recognize it.

While semantics and language are important, it is equally important to understand from where a person is coming rather than to fixate on wording.

All I really know is it's tiresome when a conversation about a complex subject ends up with people quoting, quoting and quoting again to clarify, defend, etc. We're all on the same side - we all seek community, and while there is room for disagreement, it should not be about things insanely personal, like how we choose to define ourselves, feel, or be. We get enough crap from the rest of the world, if anyone should be able to respect the members of this vast planet, we should. Even if we are just understanding that someone is extremely touchy about language. And for those extremely touchy about language - the same - understand that there is NO way, without a paragraph drawn up by an attorney, to write about these topics in a way that doesn't offend someone.

In a way, it's all silly, and prevents real communication.

I grew up in the 1960's not 1950s but my mother was basically June Cleaver- not pearls and heels, but she was a housewife with 3 kids. She got a scholarship to go to college but got married instead. When my father got abusive she really had no way out- no way to support her children- not to mention all of the Christian and societal upbringing. So the June Cleaver/50's ideal hits me in the gut and not in a good way. I also feel it is uplifting white upper middle class as "the ideal" over everything else.

I feel no one has attacked but big charges have been made and when we ask for clarification we really don't get any and are told we are making people scared to post and to get out.

I think there is a better place to have this discussion and it is happening now in another thread. Sorry if I intruded but it hits me in the gut hard.

I think there is a misperception, assumption that Transmen, masculine, and/or male identified people are in denial, cut off, ashamed or terribly traumatized from their experience of being born into a female body and socialized in various degrees to align with society's idea of what a female body person "should" think and act.

I have been posting for a few years now about this stuff and if you read carefully what I say, never have I said I was the same as a cisgender man. I know there are others with similar thoughts and I know there are Transmen that do not feel or think the same.

I do think there are times when masculine and male identified butches and Transmen are dealt with in a way that reeks of a double standard. For example, if I were to come in and talk about how I wanted a wife I believe my using the term "wife" would rub many the wrong way. There would be an assumption that my idea of a wife is not equal in the power structure. If a femme expresses a desire for a wife, it is assumed the power dynamic will be equal and misogyny or the patriarchical belief systems are not in play.

This is not to say that misogyny does not exist. It does exist and it is incumbent on all of us to do our work. Much of it is interalized and we may not even be aware of it. It is not excuse to continue living in ignorance. We all have work to do.