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Actually, I have seen what could be taken as pushiness towards both parties.
HOWEVER I really think it comes down to communication. I hope she doesn't mind me saying so, but Belle and I continued our conversation from here for a while and, by the end of it, I understood what she was saying much better. I honestly think that that particular viewpoint is definitely valid and is correct. BUT I really also think that the other side....the side that says this is what we do....is not being fully heard and understood. I *do* see the push on that side to agree with the other viewpoint and it does feel more 'pushy' than it needs to be. Both sides are absolutely right. One side is looking at the dynamic from a historical point of view, especially with an election around the corner and the potential for women's rights to go in the tank if that person is elected. I get that. The other side is saying, please let me have my dynamic...my fetish...my kink....my way of loving without jumping on me for it. I get that too. The fallout happened in the communication because I believe that the historical side is not making a judgement on the execution of the dynamic at all; it's the glorifying of that time period, I think, that has so many upset. It did, initially, feel like the historical importance of the era was being hammered into folks and that's mostly why I spoke my thoughts on the matter. I agree that it's VERY important to see where we've been. It helps to figure out where we're going and how to deal with the current social climate. When I got into this debate I was looking at it like, what I do in my home and bedroom, etc is none of anyone's beeswax, so buzz off. It felt like the dynamic itself was being attacked <--don't like this word but I can't think of another right now. HOWEVER I now see that the historical side was addressing the "the 50s were the best time evah" and "the good ole days" comments and so on and so forth. They aren't saying folks can't do what they want to do and live how they want to live. They would just like to not glamourize a time period that was really hurtful to women. I get that! BUT In the communication of that point, there were some things said that really put both sides on the defensive. That's when it really ran aground. So, this is where I stand: The 50s are romanticized on TV and in the movies as being ideal....as an 'innocent' time. Well, sometimes innocent means ignorant. The government was doing stuff....people were doing stuff....some really shitty stuff....all on the down low. Keeping females in their "place" was not only accepted but expected. Everything "unsightly" was thrust under the rug and keeping up with the Joneses was par for the course. Well, some things haven't changed. We are in a society of bigger is better....material things determine not only our place in the world but our worth as human beings. There is shitty stuff from EVERY era because people will always do shitty things to one another. Humans can be the worst monsters of all, especially to one another. I think it still comes down to being able to speak your opinion without stepping all over anyone else's and making them choke on it. I do wish some things had been said differently, by both viewpoints. This black text on a white screen is all we have and that takes a lot of give on all of our parts to get to the core of what is really being said. It's not that each side doesn't see what the other is saying...it's how it's being said, I believe, that is throwing walls up. Which is what I think Julie is trying to work through...the language of it all. |
Ummm
Actually Gemme, my point to my posts is/was that you can state your desires/wants/kinks/role playing/ dynamics without having to judge what others have done..
It seems to be a continuous tiring conversation in the forums that what you like may not be what I like and that there is no need to critique what others do. |
Gemme, it does not feel like people are talking about kink to me. I was quite surprised when that was brought up. I don't feel anyone is speaking out against anyone's kink.
The 1950s, June Cleaver, "OFOS" all the these things get brought up constantly- it does seem to be about social commentary and values and times that were "better" when women were ladies and men were gentleman. It hits quite a sore spot. I suppose we are supposed to stay in our own little camps and say nothing. |
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I don't know Snow. I guess because when a person who is posting, is called out by someone, like you did as you should have, then there are more posts made saying the same thing.....it can FEEL to them as though they are being bullied. You know how people talk about the "pack" mentality??? Which makes me want to pull my hair out!! It's that feeling that ok, one person asked me, then another, then another, then another, then another. And they are all asking the same thing. To that one poster....It can feel like they are being jumped on. I am not saying that they SHOULD feel that way, or that I feel that way, I'm just saying it could. Imagine in real life being in the same position. You are somewhere, you say something you think is totally inocuous and then all of a sudden a bunch of people turn at you, at the same time and start asking you about what you said. It would be scary to have a bunch of people pointing at you and saying.....explain, explain, EXPLAIN. Like the "mean girl" crap that gets thrown around on here too. I don't think any post is detremental to the converstaion. Well unless it's clear as a fucking bell the person is just a dumbass. And I think it's obvious that there is a difference between, not there yet and just an asshole. And note, I'm not saying that the two posts ARE attacking, just that for some folks it might feel attacking. I can't explain why certain people feel attacked but I can say that I do understand. This place can be a scary place. There are so many really smart, eloquent folks on this site who express themselves wonderfully. For those that don't feel they are at that same level of......awareness?? It could get intimidating. Then when they post something they think is totally innocent and they get called on it....again, and again, and again, it's too much. It's THEIR thing. It's not up to anyone to make anyone comfortable. But I'm just saying I get how they could feel jumped on. And then express that. I don't have a dog in this fight. I just feel bad for everyone. j |
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What you are saying here is what I was saying earlier. To me, it felt like the dynamic...the exchange between folks using some of the standards of that time....were was was being challenged. I see that it's more than that now. Basically, as I understand it, this stemmed from a set of comments made about how this era was the best and that some folks wished the world was like this now, etc. Somehow that opinion morphed into a judgement call on others who do not participate in that dynamic. I have to withdraw from the conversation, as it's time for work, but I think we're saying a lot of the same thing. There's just that one part that seems to be tripping folks up. |
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So, part of it is based on preferences and part of it is based on historical ramifications. Really have to go now, but I promise I'll be back later tonight! Thanks for the discussion! |
Ironic
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Isn't it ironic that when a Femme steps and says hey. stop it. with your isms. She's painted out as a "mean girl" You never see this happen with butch/trans/masculine folk Matter of fact one of the masculine folk came in here and accused the folks who are in here of attacking the submissive Femmes.. Yanno julie, I'll be honest. That shit is old. Tiring. It's deflection. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've also had to deal with shit like this in real time situations, at dinner even. (ISMS) And no I don't stay silent and 95% of the time, the person who spit out the ism, gets defensive, weird and turns it around on me. People fear progression, I get it now at 43 that doesn't mean because of their fear, that I will be silenced. |
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I think Gemme made a great point in her last post. There do seem to be two discussions going on at the same time. Confusing to say the least. I'm not trying to say that I feel anyone is right or wrong, just that there are two ways to look at things and it makes it easier for ME to try to see things from both sides. Then I don't get my feelings hurt and take things personally. I agree this shit is old. Which is why I said something in the first place. j |
i think for some people, possibly myself included, we don't feel that we are whitewashing history by adopting certain behaviors from that time period.
i get that women had no rights, i get that women were stripped of our dreams, hopes and the right to live in our own skin. Hell as an adult i was told i made less money than my male co-worker because he had a high house note to pay. We did the exact same job, only i did mine more efficiently. By me choosing to embrace being a home maker doesn't by any stretch mean that i do not get and honor that time period and the struggles we still go through. In fact it feels even more empowering in some ways because i am choose to live this way, i love what i do, i get to choose, and no matter what my choice it is honored. |
dee, for me it has nothing to do with if someone chooses to be a homemaker or other role in their life. Nothing at all. I am not sure what is being lost in translation.
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There are a few folks who dont get where I am coming from, and asking me for more information or to clarify something I said. Its not just one person who is having a hard time understanding what I said. Trust me when i didnt post what i really wanted to post, when i said i was waiting for an answer, that would have been attacking, because for the life of me, I cant imagine why any would would want to come in here and be an asshole, there are plenly of other places for that to happen on the web. So i was going with I dont understand and in doing that, you didnt understand where I was coming from. Its all in the form of perception! I call it engaging brain before engaging fingers. |
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Mike, I'm gonna try this one more time. If you felt like re-reading my posts, you would see I tried to explain that to me personally, I did not see your post as what you seem to think I am saying I did. I tried to say it COULD be seeing as and then gave reasons why I felt it COULD be seen as that. Not once did I say I actually saw it as rude, snarky, attacking.....insert whatever. I only spoke of how it COULD be taken by people who felt insecure and indimiated already. It is absolutely all about perception. Which is exactly what I was talking about. |
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thanks |
Well Femmsational, I certainly have a completely different read on Soon and Mike's comments.
When I read DMW saying he wants a place to just be an asshole, my thoughts in my head were wow, really, males have the whole world to be an asshole in. I thought Soon's comment was very straightforward with absolutely no snark. And when I read Mike's comment, it felt good to see another male paying attention and wanting to hear more about this- something I appreciate. That's how I read it. |
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Amen!!! I could not agree more :rrose: |
I'm not even going to go there - I have no desire to expand this, and shouldn't have brought it up to begin with. It was not someone sharing his views.
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