I effing love you, dear! I need to go to honeybarbara's school of personal protection. :)




I'm still proud to be a lesbian, just not always proud of the way I, or my sisters, act in certain situations.

It is more than a complication....

I-identity politics is a claim to a particularistic form of victimization by patriarchy and the redress of same by patriarchy. Seeking acceptance or redress by patriarchy, does not change patriarchy. Nor does it do anything to better the lot of the still oppressed by patriarchy.

I-identity gender politics reinforces the false authenticity of gender constructs - "yours", mine, everyones. It doesn't matter how good or bad, alternatively or faithfully, we perform a construct.... it doesn't matter if we willing or knowingly or not comply with a construct.... it's still a construct authored, more or less, by patriarchy.

As you say, Slater: "....in a DIY era where boundaries and definitions are constantly in flux", what does identity even mean anymore?


Coalescing around "shared paths or experiences." and shared oppression, what a novel concept ! (Said ironically, not sarcastically.)


Apparently, it is impossible for some to make that leap.

I think the term is "cisgendered woman". A term many lesbians, myself included, find insulting and an erasure of our lived experience under patriarchy. Nonetheless, it's a term that is used constantly. It falsely casts women as privileged (compliance is not privilege), and it inaccurately casts lesbians as gender congruent. Why do that? Really why? And, why use terms that offend many lesbians while arguing against language that offends others? Where is the consistency or ally-ship in that?

The "cis/trans axis of marginalization exists" not because of WBW/lesbians, it exists because of patriarchy.

Why is it permissible to call out the patriarchal messages absorbed by some, but not others? ....And before someone chimes in - NO they are not equally called out. In many cases the privileged behaviors of trans. are overlooked, even ignored, because a false (albeit patriarchal) hierarchy of oppression has been erected in the "big tent". This too is a byproduct of I-gender politics.

Slater, you may call it "autonomous organizing" - I call it by it's philosophical/post-modern name: Subjective relativism.


Yes, it does.... It also changes the dialog when some people are more invested in claiming oppression than excavating it within themselves.

I'm the mother of a daughter - a Black African-American/Cuban-Chinese daughter. The straight males friends that I count as some of the best human beings on the planet get it, too. The people who don't get it, but claim to be just like me, are the ones I worry about.

Chazz, you and I have been butting heads quite a bit lately, but I genuinely wish to understand why you feel the way you do, and what these terms mean to you. Thank you.

SA- Many butch women who feel that their gender is butch have expressed that they're offended by the term cisgendered. Chazz is not the only one. She's more than able to give you her perspective, so I won't presume to speak for her.

I think it's a very poor term because it divides people into two camps. I strongly feel that there's a vast difference between women and men, and even I understand that there's a fluidity that a world divided into 'cis' and 'non-cis' denies.

SA - there have been numerous ongoing discussions about why "cis" is experienced by some lesbians, butches, and women as erasing, and Chazz's use of "cisbutch" came out of a particular conversation and is used in a somewhat ironic sense, I believe.

Being cisgendered implies alignment with one's assigned gender, and while I was assigned "woman," and do not disagree with that assignment, being gendered as a woman is not a privilege in the context of patriarchy. That is the crux of the argument. Further, being assigned woman and being a lesbian and/or being visibly queer/butch further reduces the privilege of living as one's assigned gender of woman, adding homophobia to the misogyny/sexism that we live with every day.

Living as a woman (queer, straight, etc) is a risk, and the prefix "cis" can feel like it erases that reality by implying that if we are congruent with our gender, then all is well and we can sail forth without concern. That's pretty much a gross erasure of sexism and misogyny.

Chazz coined "cisbutch" as a means of indicating that she is NOT congruent with her assigned gender of "woman, in the sense of what "woman" is supposed to mean in a patriarchal culture. For that matter, I am also not congruent with what its supposed to mean to be a woman. But calling me a "ciswoman" erases that completely. If it were used in a very narrow sense of only comparing me to a woman of transgender experience, then it is accurate. But the fact is that much of the violence transwomen experience is rooted in the same sexism and misogyny that all women face. It feels to me that "cis" is used far more in the context of transmen who are not grappling so much with sexism/misogyny, but more with the boundary struggles they are having in women's communities.

Heart

ScandalAndy, I don't see myself as butting heads with you. I don't give disagreements with other people that much space in my head.

I-identity politics is a complex subject that cannot be explained in one sitting. It may take some research on your part.

I've discussed my issues with the term "cisgender" in a number of prior posts. It's a neologism that assigns false privilege to gender congruent women - compliance with patriarchy is not a privilege for the overwhelming majority of women on the planet. And the term "cisgender" holds absolutely no meaning, whatsoever, for lesbians who are gender incongruent women by patriarchal standards.

It should be enough that I, and other lesbians, find the term, "cisgender", inaccurate and insulting. I resent that it is not policed the same way other terms are. More than this I should not have to say.

Thank you for bringing up your issues with the term cisgender, chazz. That word doesn't sit well with me, and it wasn't until I read your posts that I understood why.

Cheryl: Okay, what I understand from your post is that you believe using the term "cisgendered" forces a binary system, and that prohibits using the term butch as a gender descriptor. Is this correct? (I have a lot more questions but do not want to misinterpret you)

I'm afraid I don't view the world the same way you do, as I am not dividing into "cis and non-cis". There is, to me, trans, cis, and everything in between, including transmasculine, transfeminine, genderqueer, and every flavor combination therein. I detest binary systems, and this is probably a failing on my part that I did not communicate that, when I personally use nomenclature that defines the opposite ends of a spectrum, that I am including all identities within that spectrum.

Thank you for letting me know that you find that term offensive. I would like to find a universally acceptable term that I may use around the site that will not offend any of the members. If you have any suggestions, that would be great. Until then, though, I hope I may ask for a bit more of your patience as I still would like to describe my identity with a term.


Heart: Thank you, I wasn't aware of the discussions regarding the terms that were happening here. I believe my main misunderstanding here was that I am not content with using the definition of "woman" as defined by the patriarchy, therefore I do see the privilege experienced by women whose path does not include the same gender introspection that transgendered women experience. I do agree with you that all women, regardless of gender journeys, under a patriarchal system, are oppressed.

I apologize if I implied that women who identify with their birthassigned gender can sail forth without concern. That was not my intention as that is not at all my belief. All women face many struggles in defining themselves and holding their own in the world.


Chazz: I am very sorry to hear that I do not warrant any of your time, as I have taken my time to respond to your post and ask questions. It hurts me quite a bit that you see fit to dismiss me so readily as someone of no consequence to you.

I asked you to explain identity politics because I cannot address your statements unless I know how you see it. I'm sorry your response was "go look it up", or at least, that's how it felt to me.

Please feel free to report my post for using the term you find offensive.

I am a scientist, and when I see the word trans, I see a molecule with two reactive groups, one on each side of the molecule. When i see cis, i see a molecule with both reactive groups on the same side. Thank you biochemistry. I am able to apply that scientific knowledge to gender theory and see that for some, like myself, it makes sense. Since there appeared to be a need for transgendered individuals to use the word "trans" to describe themselves and their gender journey, it made sense to me to use "cis" to describe myself and aspects of my journey. I admit this system does not work well for everyone.

Perhaps the best solution would be to get rid of trans and cis altogether, but then would we have adequate language to describe ourselves and our experiences? I am not so sure.

Many thanks to all of you, for speaking about cisgendered.

And the great divide.:bananasplit:

Yes gender is a construct. Culture is a construct. Values, ideology. And all of it exists with a patriarchal systems and is inevitably influenced by that system. If that renders identity and identity politics inherently meaningless, then it renders all of culture inherently meaningless.

Suffice to say you and I have different ideas about identity politics, about how they work and what purpose they can serve. Similarly, we see autonomous organizing quite differently as well. Given how dismissive you were when ScandalAndy asked you to elaborate on your ideas about identity politics, I don’t feel inclined to try to pursue that particular matter any further, so I’ll leave it that.



I agree that the cis- terminology is problematic. I think it has utility in talking in general terms about transphobia. And clearly it is an identifier that works for some people. I don’t think it works well as a broad identifier because it is oversimplified and binary, which is why I didn’t use it in that context.



I’m not sure where you thought I was suggesting that lesbians or women had created it. Of course it is all tied up with sexism, just as homophobia is all tied up with sexism.

Oppression hierarchies are hardly limited to gender politics. They come up whenever you have populations that face multiple kinds of oppression. I will say that I think the way that transphobia intersects with and interacts with sexism is a bit different than the relationships among other oppressions and that’s why trying to use the same sorts of conceptual structures that we often use with other combinations of oppressions has not worked well.

I suppose I could go on and try to explicate the differences you and I have in how we see trans oppression as functioning in society, but as nothing in the tone of your responses suggests that you have interest in actual dialog, I’m not sure anything would be served by it.

That's close, but Heart gave a far better explanation.
"Being cisgendered implies alignment with one's assigned gender, and while I was assigned "woman," and do not disagree with that assignment, being gendered as a woman is not a privilege in the context of patriarchy. That is the crux of the argument. Further, being assigned woman and being a lesbian and/or being visibly queer/butch further reduces the privilege of living as one's assigned gender of woman, adding homophobia to the misogyny/sexism that we live with every day.

Living as a woman (queer, straight, etc) is a risk, and the prefix "cis" can feel like it erases that reality by implying that if we are congruent with our gender, then all is well and we can sail forth without concern. That's pretty much a gross erasure of sexism and misogyny."

Calling me cisgendered, meaning that my gender conforms to the gender I'm expected to exhibit, might pass muster in a simplistic way even though I detest the term. Calling any of my butch partners or girlfriends cisgendered is laughable. I may have been a tomboy as a child, but I was never mistaken for a boy. I may have deliberately put myself in unsafe positions by coming out, but my girlfriends never had that luxury. They were out whether or not they would have chosen it. Their presentation and their masculine energy made them targets and kept them from fitting in. They weren't like other girls. They weren't like other women. Many perceive their gender as butch. That's why calling them cisgendered is offensive. It erases butch women.

Heart did such a great job explaining why it erases us as lesbians that there's no need to further elaborate. I really resent that somehow this problematic term has suddenly gained so much currency.

My apologies. I interpret cisgender to mean an individual who does not experience body dysphoria. That is my context. To me, identity along the butch/andro/femme spectrum is a completely different kettle of fish. It isn't my place to dictate how others interpret the term.

I do not intend to sit here and insist one of us is right and one is wrong because i don't think it's that clear cut. Thank you to Heart for explaining your position, thank you to you for taking the time to respond to my questions.

Wikipedia
 

Cissexual is an adjective used in the context of gender issues to describe "people who are not transsexual and who have only ever experienced their mental and physical sexes as being aligned".[1] Nikki Sullivan and Samantha Murray characterized the term as "a way of drawing attention to the unmarked norm, against which trans* is identified, in which a person feels that their gender identity matches their body/sex".[2]

Cisgender ( /ˈsɪsdʒɛndər/) (or cisgendered) is an adjective used in the context of gender issues and counselling to refer to a class of gender identities formed by a match between an individual's gender identity and the behavior or role considered appropriate for one's sex.[1]

SA you seem to be speaking of cissexual, while others are speaking to the definition of cisgender. Not unlike transsexual and transgender.

Thank you for pointing that out. I see I was mistaken in my terminology.

I've always known the term to be used in a cissexual way then, when I left the dash site and didn't involve myself in North American gender politics for quite a while. I see it's changed somewhat.

I'm sorry... but pardon? I feel like I've grown stupid in the last four years of my life (that's actually true, I do feel that way) but I have no idea how that's supposed to fit very many people. A match between an individual's gender idenitity (so take for example an individual gender - for someone who feels their gender is not described by anyone else and I know a Bucket load of people like that - and the behaviour or role (ok still following) considered appropriate for one's sex. ok at that point I'm lost. considered approriate by whom exactly? My family? my community? my sub-culture? my wider culture? my boss? Which country and what subculture and what community am I in? Jesus you could turn from cis to non-cis in a matter of 15 minutes depending on the people you are standing with. I'm sorry, that too subjective a term for me to really agree with. That would be like considering my gender, femme, to be based on whether my mom and my boss agree it exists as a gender or something absurd like that. and I'm only femme depending on what other people think. In that case, according to my point of view, a lot of trans are actually cisgendered - which seems to have defeated the point of making a word for non-trans people. I'm sorry but I think the term was invented in some kind of subcultural vaccuume.

Good try though. It does bring up the issue of a women's gender(s) being decided by others (if the community decides one is allowed to be a woman or not). Which is extremely degrading and fucked up and happens to a lot of women due to their journeys. So I see the point of trying to achieve a term.

Hit the nail on the head, love.

I feel I should point out that if we want to bring in the younger generation of queers and activists who are still concerned with equal rights for all, we are going to have to find a way to accept and have dialogue with those who use this word. Not for nothing, four years of gender studies and a minor in the subject, and not once was any terminology other than this used.

Do i still find it imperfect? Sure, but what system of language isn't?

SO how do we get back to being proud of all the members of our community if we disagree with the current language being used/taught?

And there you have it. "Behavior and role appropriate for one's sex" reeks of patriarchal assumptions.

And as far as body dysmorphia: again, it's impossible to be female in a patriarchal culture and not have body dysmorphia, considering the objectification and violence routinely done to women's bodies.

Odd, how gender-studies terminology has managed to side-step the historical realities of living as a woman (whether born that way or not), in favor of a very narrow focus on trans vs non-trans. I get awfully tired of the rareified Ivory Tower approach to gender and "North American gender politics," as HB so aptly put it.

Women transgress rigid and limited gender definitions all the time in order to survive. I'm not talking just about queers, I'm talking globally, about women. Read the book in my sig line. As for young activists -- the book in my sig line should be required reading.

Heart

well I see your point but I have to be honest and say that under that definition, cisgendered really means next to nothing to me. it's so other-subjective that I've lost any inclination to bother trying to figure it out. It sounds very othering - as I'm sure the precurser "trans" feels to many women. Perhaps that's the point, to wear a shoe that doesn't really fit to gain perspective. But I'd have no idea how to have a conversation with someone applying cisgendered to me if they had no idea who I was or how I felt about my own gender and all they saw was feminine gender presentation and a female body. they wouldn't know my self concept, nor my gender "role" with my parter, nor how I fuck, nor how I work, nor what pronouns I prefer.

But I'm pretty sure that's how many women feel about the qualifyier "trans" as well. Heart is right, the dichotamy is false and misleading. And frankly I'd have a hard time thinking of when I'd actually use either one in my daily life unless someone told me they self-identified that way. When the fuck do I ever refer to my women friends as trans or cis? never. that's like saying "my butch friend" which to me sounds a bit odd. It's my friend Bill, or Hilary or Seven. I dunno maybe it's only purpose is defining boundaries of inclusion. Like if someone was putting up a dating add. And frankly my local community is lucky enough not to have to use those. Perhaps it's a position of privilege not to have to find further qualifiers.

and yeah, heart, body dysphoria is a pretty awful thing in women - I've had it for YEARS, most of my life. It is different in target than my partner but the pain is quite similar. Learning to live with it has certainly been a challange but being able to claim things without shame has helped, and as I discover more things about myself, the more controllable it gets. It do think it's ultimately about control over one's own body, in the end, in all cases.

And I am interested in that book. Which I oddly never read.

But Heart, I'm not using it with any consideration of behaviors and roles that are appropriate for one's sex. I don't give a damn what anyone else thinks is "appropriate". So what does that make me?

I think it is quite a broad statement you've made regarding dysphoria. Do you not agree that all women, butch/andro/femme/whatever have objectification and violence practiced upon them in some form or another under patriarchal values?

Now, imagine the added burden of feeling the physical body you are contained within does not represent the gender of your mind and thought patterns. Gender dysphoria is a struggle that is added to the experience of trans men and women. Trans women then take on the burden of objectification of and violence against women. Trans men struggle with the scars of that burden and how to address it throughout their transition.

I don't think gender studies is side stepping the reality of living as a woman. It is very much stressed that there is still a deep inequality there. However, that is being taught alongside the assertion that there are multiple gender presentations and identities that deserve to be recognized and supported just as much. This is not a trans. vs. non-trans thing, here. Please do not mistake me as someone who is supportive of a binary system. Cissexual and cisgender ARE being used interchangeably because you can identify with your sex, or you can not, or you can sometimes identify with it. The roles you identify with, the behaviors, the way you dress, walk, act, and talk? Those can change in a heartbeat and are not the same for everyone.

Put me next to my friend C*, we are both femme lesbians. We both like computers, play nerdy games, have long hair, swear by black mascara, enjoy volleyball, have fantasy football teams, and change the oil in our cars. We have similar behaviors which do not clearly fit into any sort of role. We are both women who struggle against the pay difference in our field. We both have complaints about dating. The difference is that she was tormented and fired from her previous job because the name and gender on her birth certificate did not match the name on her resume.

She needs language to describe and validate that struggle, which I have never had to go through. It is not fair for us to deny her that language and invalidate her experience either.

Since I am using cisgender and cissexual interchangeably, I would go so far as to state that butch lesbians could be cis or trans gendered, it is the behaviors they choose for themselves, wardrobe, and introspection that dictate the butch identifier. Only the individual has the right to choose their label, anyone else trying to label is just overstepping their bounds. I do not intend to overstep my bounds and tell someone what word they should use to describe how they identify with their sex. I just attempted to put forth an example of how someone who does not share the same issues with the terminology could use them to describe themselves.

I respect that there are some butches and femmes who vehemently disagree with me. Thank you for your disagreement, you are entitled to your opinion and beliefs. We are all correct.

You are correct, women transgress gender restrictions all the time, whether it be out of necessity or inclination. I am happy to applaud my sisters who challenge everything we know about gender and it's so-called boundaries. Without brave women throughout history, we wouldn't have the redefined view of what it means to be a woman today.

I can see why that definition would not hold very much meaning for you. I think my point is getting lost here, and that is something I am trying very hard to avoid.

I do not think that anyone other than the individual should be identifying anyone other than themselves.

I believe that there are different struggles faced by different individuals that are radically influenced by sex and behavior and physical appearance. I think these experiences need to be shared and we are constantly inventing and adapting language as an imperfect vehicle to help us share these stories and create dialogue, address social injustice, and enact change.

I think you bring up a good point with "boundaries of inclusion". I did not think that my personal boundaries of inclusion could be construed as exclusionary, but upon further examination i see that, under certain interpretations, they could be.


I am glad that you and Heart are bringing up these points, they are important for me to examine. I may not always agree with you both, but I appreciate your willingness to explain where you are coming from and the importance of your point of view as well as mine.

I do not want to put forth the impression that I am not fully aware of the inequality of women in the world. Being a woman still sucks. There are still rules in place to keep women from positions of power, that encourage violence against them, and, ultimately, keep women in subservience and pain. This is terrible behavior and it is wrong. I just don't want to exclude anyone who could be a valuable community member or ally because the way they describe their experience doesn't fit into what we think is okay.