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oy vey.
where were we? |
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No actually we never have/had been friends. Its a public thread and i will make comments. I dont like stereotyping, so i commented. I did not target you, just the words you used. and im not listening, im reading! |
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Thank you for the correction. You done petting me in the head? Cause this is what this feels like, you exerting your privi on me I am not liking it So please Back to topic? |
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I personally appreciated it when Snow suggested that we just keep our thread butch/trans as she saw that this made the most sense, due to the originally stated goal of the thread. If this is what you want, Snow, maybe it would be more clear cut if you moved it to the Femme Zone? I guess I kind of assumed that AtLast put her thread in the Relationships, Communities, and Groups forum so that she did not have to choose between the butch or trans zone, since it is for both groups of people. |
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Well no, my intent was for it to be here.... I think it sucks that I have to go into Femme Zone. I don't want to go tag base just to feel safe Make sense? |
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ETA: And you also did say that it was for anyone other than those that identify as Butches or Transmen (so maybe that is another reason why you wouldn't want it in the femme zone). |
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:praying: |
This thread makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.
And here's why: It feels like, once again, we femmes are being held accountable for the community (or lack of community) between butches and transmen. Even though we are repeatedly told we are not a part of male-id'ed/female id'ed butch or transmen communities(yanno, cuz we're femme. We couldn't possibly have an opinion on those communities). Yet now we are going to discuss our influences in these communities. After awhile, it starts to feel like a "gotcha!" It starts to feel like a trap. So why am I here? Cause I like Super Femme and The Lady Snow. And I'm secretly hoping I'm wrong. |
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It's a hard conversation, and as much as we don't like it.. We femme's do perpetuate what may or may not happen.. I don't think we aren't allowed opinions, so can I have some clarification on that? It does happen... I don't think we are super imposing all responsibilities on femme's alone. Yes I gotta be honest we do have some influence Can you please help me out to understand why you feel this may be a trap? Please? |
Hi, interesting topic.
Before finding the on line sites I had no clue sometimes ignorance is bliss I have seen what you are talking about some but then I don't know a lot of people in real time nor do I talk to most on the phone. But I have seen it. when I first started hearing about this I was shocked so my take on it 1. female/male ided butches and transmen are adults as such they can take care of themselves 2. the idea of trashing someone based on their Id sickens me it says more about the person doing the talking than the person being trashed. 3. when I see it happen. I stay out of it. I do not feel it is my job to stand up for another adult. They can do that for themselves. 4. and as I will always say: humans are humans first, everything else comes after. |
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I like em all to be frank. So to put someone down cause you are now with the other becomes divisive. I am certainly not speakin for anyone, and know that people can handle their own stuff. Hence the conception of this thread. |
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desire, fuck, partner with, hang out with, play with, etc etc. |
i'd like to participate, but i kinda feel like i may be one of the people SF was talking about in the post about speaking for butches and that Snow meant when talking about building fences. i hope i never speak for a butch. i have no idea what it's like to be a butch. But i have gotten embroiled in a number of the discussions re the position of female-identified butches on this site and the other.
i feel like i am speaking from my experience of what i have seen. i definitely know i am not participating to get the approval of a butch or catch her/hys/his attention. i imagine that people might think i am one of the people building the fences between the two groups. i know that is not my intent. Maybe i have spent too much time on chat and heard too many femmes refuse to honor a butch's chosen pronouns of she/her and talk about being a true femme and dating only real butches -- and we all know what that stuff means. i just got fed up. And i saw a lot of sexism in it. And it bothered me. i hope i have not built fences. But i just really dislike the sexist and homophobic elements in our culture, and i can't seem to ignore them. So the effect has been that i have stirred some shit in those threads. How can i influence people to build bridges? i honestly don't know. i think calling other femmes on their heteronormative bullshit is a first step. That creates some hostility and resentment between groups. i don't see myself as a support for any category of people on this site or in the butch-femme community. i really basically stand up when i feel something is unfair or needs to be said. |
good points martina.
lets talk about that. let's be brave. why would anyone NOT honor chosen pronouns? how can we encourage each other to honor them? whatever they are? how can we honor each other in that process? |
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So the "trap" for me is being asked to give counsel about the relationship between the butch community and transmen community yet maintaining a respectful distant and not speaking for that community. Thanks for being patient with me. |
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Please don't feel shitty. I'm one of those that does this. I've also taken heat for admitting I'm lazy about pronouns. I chose not to defend myself because a lot was said that was true even though a lot was said that was not true. I tend to take up for the transguy. Part of that is because I feel like some people put them down for not staying in the role of butch lesbian. Part of that is because I have an over-inflated sense of self-worth and think my opinion matters. This thing about fences...I can see that. This thing about it not being my job to foster friendship/community between the transguys and the butches...that was my first response when I read this thread. Then I went back to the idea of fences. I need to gnaw on that a bit. I want to say that I don't do that, but then again, maybe I do somehow. Hiroshima was my fault too. I guess, for me, I need to know what does community look like for the transguy and what does it look like for the butch. Is it that different? Is it divided into transguys who fully transition and transguys who don't and transguys who really don't define themselves by what body parts they do or don't have? Is it divided between masculine-id butches and female-id butches and butches who don't give a rat's ass as long as they can be who they are? How do I as a Femme fit into this? What is my responsibility? I think that my only responsibility is to work on my own hula hoop and stop speaking for others even if I really do know better then they do what they want to say. (that's self-directed sarcasm for all the Arwen-haters, k?) I think I need to be friends with and not worry about what others choose to identify as. I am working on not being lazy (even in my own head) about pronouns. I never meant that in a disrespectful way. It was self-deprecating and, for what it's worth, more honest than I guess I should have been.:canoworms:And I have NEVER intentionally disrespected anyone's choice of pronoun. In fact, it's a habit of mine to just ask someone what they want to be called. I really want to talk more about this idea of fences. Do you really think we (generic) are trying to cut those non-femmes into smaller groups so it's easier to find the ones we are attracted to? Am I understanding you correctly or going off on a wild Arwen tangent? |
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I hope we can have the conversations I really do. It doesn't have to be about *their* perspective.... This space can be about how we see it or experience it, without mucking up the other thread. Make sense? |
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I so get this, blush. I think that is what I felt too. I also see that there is a bigger (or maybe smaller) picture here in the idea of femmes who speak on behalf of one group or another. Why do we do that? Is it a protective thing? I know for me it can be. Because I know and love transmen, I get really riled at perceived slights. And, that's not mine to get riled over...or is it? Here is where I get really wishy-washy. :) |
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