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I am a woman and comfortable enough with my biological sex to consider myself a she. Genderwise it doesn't exactly fit for me but what are you gonna do. I am a feminist and my primary allegiance is and always will be with other women. I am a butch and I am a woman so the pronoun she works. However quirky as it may sound I don't mind when someone who sees me as a butch woman or even just understands me as butch calls me he. When people call me he because they can't see the woman I am because it doesn't match their idea of what a woman looks like or because I don't present the proper markers to trigger the female identity for them then I don't care for it so much.
I always use the pronoun the person prefers if I know it. I will ask if I don't and it's an option or I will refrain from using a pronoun if I don't know it. It's not the first time or the only situation where I have had to NOT use a pronoun when referencing someone. I am quite adept at it. Thankfully I don't have to do it to protect my job anymore. Born twenty years too soon. |
I never have found one that fits ME
I never have found one that fits ME
'nuff said me thinks. I think it are me boobs and curves, I cannot, physically bind---OUCH! So I am what I am Butch with a full on female Bod. As long as my wife loves me as I am I am good with it. Wifey is a Fierce Femme who sports dresses as well as jeans (truth be though I love her in heels) no one ever pings her for Queer. Me though, its the pants, the flannel the boots--I look female but AM BUTCH. Go ahead, classify me, "You feeling lucky, punk, you feeling...lucky?" from the movie and NOT to be taken as a threat at ALLL!!!! |
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I wanted to show up and basically agree with every one. The first two parts I have bolded above make perfect sense to me. I have in the past used the pronoun space or not, mostly not. It is not to confuse, but I just don't get all wound up about it if someone who doesn't know me picks whatever is handy. People who know me beyond posts, or have seen me post over time will know that I prefer gender neutral and that there are plenty of choices that are non-specific. If it is more comfortable for the other person to use gender specific pronouns, I would trend toward male. It fits in my head better as it is how I ID to myself. To that end, at least for now, I have filled in that slot. We have a lot of new folks on the site and I can see where if they are new to BF terminology or gender politics it could make them more comfortable if they want to address me. I don't know how long it will be there but it is now. The third portion I bolded above is something I have also experienced. I put it in the same category as other forms of willful disrespect. Quote:
The way I read it is as: Of course it is She, what else would it be? Well, with butches it could in fact be male as another option. Am I reading it incorrectly? BTW, in no way does your choice bother me, I simply do not understand it. Curious minds and all... Quote:
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Kelt,
Something that is very funny is earlier today I was reminded that you don't use the pronoun slot. I was actually going to razz you about it, but didn't, because I'm nice like that. :sunglass: Thanks for your post. Lets hear it for using the pronoun slot so ALL genders/sexes can live in harmony! :gimmehug: <--- thinks we have a pronounphobicslot epidemic here |
i've always liked the fact that melissa etheridge stays away from using pronouns in her songs. it's neutral. can go either way. but, i've never really gave pronouns much thought as in referring to me. i've always been a she and it doesn't bother me, ... never have felt that i should be anything other than she/her. i am butch, btw. a woman. female. lesbian. sometimes a smartass. sometimes a tomboy. all days a diehard pat summitt fan. etc. etc. ...
i will call you whatever makes you happy. that's what matters. if you are happy. |
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Even if someone thought I meant "of course it's she, I'm butch!" that would be putting words in my mouth since it is my personal preferred pronoun, which means I am speaking for myself, not all butches. In all of the years I have posted on this forum and the dash site, I have never spoken for all butches (or all anything, really) and in fact would counter anyone who tried. Ok, that is still a lot of words, but I swear it is way less then what I originally had. lol :) |
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I find one part of your underlying premise to be untenable, "and women use "she". However, it is not part of my original question which was a simple curiosity based linguistics question about your chosen phraseology. In light of that, I will respectfully agree to disagree on that point. I know neither one of us wants to reopen a decade old debate. So again, thank you for your answer. :) |
Thanks to the hy's and she's and he's.
I would like to mention that i've never ran across anyone who would get upset when using the wrong pronoun. Especially at the beginning.
You can't tell by appearance, by gender, by anything else for that matter so there are honestly, no clues. It is just a personal decision. I also do try to steer away from it best i can, by using you or the name of the person when i'm not sure and don't want to appear rude. Let's face it we are a community of very fluid pronouns and most of us know by now to ask which one to use for which person. At times i do feel like i need a schematic to keep up with it and boy oh boy do i falter. But, MY experience has been met with kindness and a gentle redirection. You could tell me you are a she and the next sentence it could come out a he, but i mean no harm or disrespect. It's just hard to remember for me. On top of that we are all evolving and growing and changing and our gender and or pronouns do too sometimes. It's best to ask, but hard to remember. I guess would be my answer to this ever changing pronoun. |
Princessbelle,
I completely agree with you. Your point about not having external identifiers is especially pertinent online, most of the time we have no idea as to the appearance, much less preferences, of any given individual. A little flexibility goes a long way. I think the English language has evolved significantly over time and already provides many gender neutral options as is. If the it hadn't we'd still be using a lot of thee's and thou's. :) Seeing the evolution of terms in urban slang and also in personal identifiers is promising. I hope it continues and that the use of gender specifics diminishes and that people of all sorts begin to view it as less relevant in conversation. |
The Butch Pronoun Questionnaire
1. How do you identify? Transmasculine, butch 2a. What is your preferred pronoun (when referencing yourself)? They 2b. Do you feel like your preferred pronoun fits you perfectly? Pretty well, I guess 2c. Did you have another or other preferred pronouns in the past? I used he for a number of years, and she when I was growing up 3a. Does your preferred pronoun vary depending on setting? I always prefer they, but in some settings and around some people I don't feel comfortable sharing that. Most people tend to default to using he for me unless I tell them otherwise. 4. How important is it to you that people use your preferred pronoun? Moderately important, though I don't get too bent out of shape about it 5a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "he," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? Somewhat invalidated, but I'm pretty used to it 5b. How do/would you react? I probably wouldn't do anything 6a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "she," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? Confused, and a little embarassed 6b. How do/would you react? Again, I probably wouldn't do anything. I'm ridiculously nonconfrontational. 7a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "hy," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? Really confused. I've never heard/seen anyone use the pronoun hy outside of this forum. 7b. How do/would you react? I'm not sure. 8a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "zie," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? A little frustrated, I think, though also impressed that the person was comfortable with nonbinary pronouns. 8b. How do/would you react? I would probably make a point to let the person know that I don't use the pronoun zie. 9a. When speaking of a specific butch, do you strive to ensure you are using that person's preferred pronoun? In general, I strive to ensure that I use people's preferred pronouns. 10a. Do you associate different traits with different butch pronouns? Not really. I used to, but as a butch who has preferred different pronouns over the course of my (rather short) life but who myself has changed very little, I no longer really associate universal distinctions between butches who identify with different pronouns. 11a. If you are referring to a butch, and you have not had the opportunity to find out what that person's preferred pronoun is, do you use a default pronoun? I would probably avoid using a pronoun or use the pronoun that others are using for them. If I really felt that I had to default, I would probably default to she. I know more butches who prefer she than those who prefer other pronouns. 11d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why? No. Each person has the right to decide what pronoun works best for them. 12a. If you are referring to a hypothetical butch, do you use a default pronoun? Not usually, but if I had to, I'd probably use she, for the reason given above. 13a. Do you tend to partner with butches who use a certain pronoun more often than others? I've never partnered with a butch before. 14a. Are there times when you have been corrected for using an incorrect pronoun for a butch? No |
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Lightbulb moment
I’m baaack. :)
I know I said I would let go of this, but of course I couldn’t. This statement has been festering away in my brain for days now. (I don’t like feeling erased) Quote:
Generally speaking when I read something I try to look at the surrounding context to make sure I’m getting it right. If it still doesn’t work I default to the dictionary or encyclopedia. This is a case where I couldn’t make it work either way. The problem is I know that Parker is smart and more importantly, significantly better at being politically correct than I am. So, I’ve been doing a wider search. I went out into the Internet and combed through dozens of videos, blog posts, and articles written/spoken by butches of varying ages and locations. In some cases I saw the word woman being used in a somewhat different (but unclear) way although mostly the dictionary way. Then I came back here to this website and searched the forums. I found a thread that started back in 2009, a big one about this subject. I got through 126 large posts before I found one that stated that to some people female=sex and woman=gender. If I frame it as a gender instead of biology I can understand (after a lot of digging) what was meant. I’m looking for verification. Specifically from Parker; is this what you meant? If it is, a little alternative definition in your reply would have gone a long way. Someone new to this site or the dynamic might not get it. I didn't. :seeingstars: |
Well, I'm getting an education.
I want to thank the folks that have pm'd to send more information or give their point of view. Clearly I have more studying to do. Back to the archives for more. :glasses: |
I chose to answer only the following question as that based upon my answer to it, all other questions seem to be answered by proxy.
So here is the question I referenced and my answer. 1. How do you identify? This is an interesting question. The need within the queer community to quantify and validate our existence and identities into neat, organized categories, has caused us to label things to the point that we have become some long string of pronouns, adjectives and nouns. And oft we are touting off this diatribe of words to people who have stopped listening after the first two words of our identity, where we are striving through words to be seen as "different, unique, and new". Sadly, language is both evolving and stagnating to the point that people still fall through the cracks between descriptors. And that is where I fall into this. There are no descriptors that I feel accurately describe me without my having fallen into the "alphabet soup" and come out covered in layer upon layer of adjectives. So, oft, "for the sake of conversation", I momentarily don the name-tag of "male-identified butch", and then promptly take it off after introductions are made, because it is my actions that determine who I am, not a string of ill-fitting words. And due to this aforementioned need to quantify and validate that is so rampant within the queer community, I refrain from throwing gender based monikers around when referring to others in that: 1. People tend to get rather defensive and aggressive around mis-usage of the "proper" descriptors of their choice. 2. I want to be as effectively respectful of others as I possibly can in the hopes that they in turn will respect my gender expression, gender identity, and gender preference. |
The Butch Pronoun Questionaire
1. How do you identify? Butch Woman 2a. What is your preferred pronoun (when referencing yourself)? She 2b. Do you feel like your preferred pronoun fits you perfectly? Yes 2c. Did you have another or other preferred pronouns in the past? I was called he...some still call me that,actually.Men and women take me for a he on first impressions. 3a. Does your preferred pronoun vary depending on setting? Yes 3b. If so, can you please explain why and how? If i'm going to see these people/strangers every day,they must see me as a butch woman,period 4. How important is it to you that people use your preferred pronoun? Now days its very important! 5a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "he," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? I'm NOT a he...I now joke with strangers and correct them 5b. How do/would you react? I tell them i'm a butch woman...and leave it 9a. When speaking of a specific butch, do you strive to ensure you are using that person's preferred pronoun? When in doubt,I ask them what do they prefer to be called 9b. If not, why not? Sometimes I fuck up 9c. If not, what do you see as the possible effects for that butch and others in the community? Hoping he/hy'd stand up and correct me,no hard feelings would be taken 10a. Do you associate different traits with different butch pronouns? No 10b. Do you feel that different pronouns clue you in about how a butch may look, think, feel, dress, act, talk, walk, fuck, bond? No 10c. Do you associate different ideologies, alliances or belief systems with different butch pronouns? No 11a. If you are referring to a butch, and you have not had the opportunity to find out what that person's preferred pronoun is, do you use a default pronoun? Yes, and I usually fuck up 11b. If so, which pronoun do you use and why? In the past i'd call he/hy a she,for some it can be seen as an insult to be called a Her/She 11c. If not, what do you do instead? Ask them first 11d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why? No,all butches are not the same...even those that call themselves He/hy 12a. If you are referring to a hypothetical butch, do you use a default pronoun? say what??? 12b. If so, which pronoun do you use and why? is this a trick question? 12c. If not, what do you do instead? I'm still trying to wrap my mind around hypothetical butch 12d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why? If there are hypothetical butches out there,most definintely.I mean,if you don't know what you are,how are we suppose to know what you are?...i'm curious about the different butches out there...although i'm more curious about the different femmes out there,just saying 14a. Are there times when you have been corrected for using an incorrect pronoun for a butch? Yes 14b. If so, how did you feel about it and how did it influence you? You have to learn somewhere 15. Do you have any other thoughts regarding the use of butch pronouns? Well,yes and no.I mean it matters that I be seen as a butch woman.Other butches can call it as they see themselves..whatever they want others how to see them 16. If you could add a question to this questionaire, what would it be? N/A...plz :glasses: my gawd |
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BUMP BUMP BUMP I answered but not in color! |
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