Originally Posted by Jess (Post 571095)

Firedance,
Nice to meet you and great post. This is one aspect of the dynamics between butch and femme that I don't think I have seen discussed here or any other b/f forum I have read. So.. thanks! :)

I tend to agree with a part of Apoc's post , in the different expectations/ behaviors from butch to butch or femme to femme. It never excuses bad behavior or unpracticed manners, however, it can be a long slow walk through a hot coal bed sometimes trying to navigate individuals based on generalizations.

I can not tell you how many femme's I have spoken to who will tell you flat out that they use those "charms" as currency. I think based on that, some butches may feel it is "ok" to ask them to use it for whatever seeming advantage it may offer in a given situation. ( The "extra toast" cracked me the hell up, btw.. dude, here's a quarter.. git sum) I may even at some point may have asked my girl to deal with a mechanic or something, because yes, usually my girl/ partner is better received than I am, especially in very testosterone laden spaces. I can guarantee, it was never for some extra toast or what have you.

I appreciate this topic. I think the nuances of our "dance" are what takes a hokey-pokey to a tango. They will also let us know when we may just be dancing to a different beat. Discussions like this, when dealt with positively can be very thought provoking and sometimes, enlightening for folks who may have never seen that behavior as "wrong", due to cultural differences, whatever. It may have never dawned upon them.

Again, thank you :rrose:

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic (Post 571097)

I am not, and I repeat not. wearing. rainbow. earrings.

Originally Posted by thedivahrrrself (Post 571101)

ROFL I would draw the line there too. I've worn rainbow necklaces, but people still ask me if I'm at the pride parade to support my gay brother or something. I want to yell, "Not all queer women have mullets, you know!" but alas, I'm usually much more polite....

Originally Posted by Hack (Post 571105)

And thank you for saying you have our (collective) back. I have found that sometimes girls say that, but then their actions don't reflect that. It is nice to encounter a femme who backs it up.

Best,
Jake

Originally Posted by Turtle (Post 571029)

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic (Post 571097)

Showing up with a BullDyke is the only thing that really says it for me. I am not, and I repeat not. wearing. rainbow. earrings.

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic (Post 571097)

I really don't explain much any more....but when I do, its "pass the salsa, I'm a Lesbian". If they ask why Butches rather than bio men? I ask how graphic they want my reply to be.

Originally Posted by Hack (Post 571105)

Firedance,

I am very sorry this happened to you and that butches have treated you in a way that is neither respectful nor admirable.

I happen to believe that one should take great pride in the way he/she treats a femme. To me, femmes are the most amazing women because they choose to stand next to us, stand up for us, and stand with us. They do all that in the face of what can be some rather serious hostility in the world.

And honestly, a butch should know how to avoid a line, get a good table, but most importantly -- treat you properly. At all times. I believe in having a standard that I maintain with all femmes I know.

And thank you for saying you have our (collective) back. I have found that sometimes girls say that, but then their actions don't reflect that. It is nice to encounter a femme who backs it up.

Best,
Jake

Originally Posted by macele (Post 571222)

from my point of view, i don't see this as a butch problem, ... but rather a lack of tact. to say things such as this is offensive. i've never done it. i've never thought about asking a woman to do it.

this feels like a butch trying to act like some heterosexual men do. i grew up, and i am still in a heterosexual world. i try to stay away from most things hetero, in regards to relationships. obviously i can't with all things. but something like this can be avoided if i don't pick up the tactless practices of some heterosexual men.

when i think of a lesbian butch, i think of sensitive. sweet. caring. with touches of tomboy.

good thread. thanks firedance.

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic (Post 571230)

There are some very NOT "sensitive. sweet. caring. with touches of tomboy" Butch Lesbians around.

There are hard assed very very masculine Butch Lesbians out there. Sometimes, these Butches need some guidance from friends and Femmes on how to act. lol

Not trying to be argumentative (f)

Originally Posted by Jess (Post 571095)

Firedance,
Nice to meet you and great post. This is one aspect of the dynamics between butch and femme that I don't think I have seen discussed here or any other b/f forum I have read. So.. thanks! :)

I tend to agree with a part of Apoc's post , in the different expectations/ behaviors from butch to butch or femme to femme. It never excuses bad behavior or unpracticed manners, however, it can be a long slow walk through a hot coal bed sometimes trying to navigate individuals based on generalizations.

I think the nuances of our "dance" are what takes a hokey-pokey to a tango. They will also let us know when we may just be dancing to a different beat. Discussions like this, when dealt with positively can be very thought provoking and sometimes, enlightening for folks who may have never seen that behavior as "wrong", due to cultural differences, whatever. It may have never dawned upon them.

Again, thank you :rrose:

Originally Posted by Firedance (Post 570987)

I am sick of Butches who say to me;

"Hey, why don't you go use your charms and get us ___(insert object here)___."

or,

"Hey go work your magic so we don't have to wait."

or,

"Go flirt with that guy so we can get out of here".

To me I see absolutely NO RESPECT on the butches part! If hy/shy wants a free drink go find someone to buy it for you. Don't ask your date to exploit herself for you.

I'm honestly furious over what people have done to you!


No.
No, No, No, and Hell No!


I spend all day every day, verbally and non-verbally telling cis-guys their advances are not welcome. I am friendly, funny, polite, and very, very, firm. I expend great amounts of energy simply asserting my Identity every day and I will not sell out my sexuality or my identity to get you an extra piece of toast!

AMEN!!!


So this is your part of The Dance... Don't ask me to deny who I am. Don't ask me to throw away the identity that I work so diligently to affirm in a world that keeps telling me I doesn't exist. Don't casually, thoughtlessly, dismiss my identity, and dishonor me by implying that my identity is less real than yours, simply because I can "pass" as straight!

I can handle coming out a dozen times a week. I can educate people all week long.

But you?
When YOU don't see me?
That hurts.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To all the Butches who have never, and would never, think of saying such things to a Femme; I thank you. Your strength and respect is what keeps The Dance alive for me.

~Fire.

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic (Post 571145)

All true.

However, younger or newer Butches, who have not been around our dynamic, sometimes need some guidance in the what is and is not cool to say, and how to get tables, open doors and all the wonderful things you guys do for us!