Wow...some really good reading and view points here. I haven't been keeping up on the Planet much, guess I need to get my ass in gear and try to catch up. It's so hard to find "space" nowadays where one can read and relate to others who are perhaps of like mind. I am crashing through my mid-life crisis and find it difficult to connect with others lately.

Ok...back to reading!

For me, my issue with the lesbian as other is from the 70's when I came out--I was not welcome, I was told to tone it down (whatever "it" was) and told to embrace my feminine side because no matter how I tried, I wasn't going to be a man. I remain a male identified butch that has no problem with my butchness and never was trying to be a man.

As a butch leather Top, I still get shit--from the lesbians and from b/f folks, but hey, to each hys/her own. From the lesbians I get, "how are we ever going to get the right to vote when you leather folks show up in the media"...I dunno, how narrow do you want it to be so you can have that brass ring.

As a child of the 60's, weren't we going to tear down the patriarchy, including that need for a piece of paper to define ALL relationships like marriage? Weren't we going to tear down that binary world that said this is what men do and this is what women do? Didn't we radicalize the way we wore our clothes so that men could have long hair and women could wear pants if that's what they wanted to do?

And now oh so many years later, we're still trying to put each other down even within our own ranks for being too butch, not butch enough, the wrong kind of butch, too masculine, too feminine, a butch with long hair, a butch that can't fix a car----puleeese.

I love the fact that I walk through many worlds---I'm a native American, so I hang with my injun pals, I am a leather butch so I hang with leather folks, I am an overeducated liberal arts wonk, so I hang with those folks too, I live in S.F. so it's young vs. older, it's trendy andro vs. queer, it's ftm leaning to bi---it's all good. It's just sad that while we're dicing and slicing and figuring out what we want for ourselves some feel the need to put others down or criticize their way in the world.

When people actually sit down with me, they find that leather butch isn't what they think it is, they find that no, not all native Americans grow up in tepees (seriously, some people think we do), that butch doesn't always mean white collar or blue collar, that some butches prefer hy vs. she and some feel more masculine than feminine and it's all good.

Rope--

All lesbians are not the same either. Some are butches and femmes.

I am seeing so much of this sort of "in-fighting" or "debating" if you will, within our own community lately. It really bothers me, I wish that the LGBT community could find a way to just live and let live without all of the criticism of each other. So this point you make really struck a chord with me. I see a lot of it on Youtube lately, it's been kind of a hot topic.

I sometimes wonder if there will come a time when we can all just agree to be unified in diversity. Maybe we need to discontinue calling ourselves the "LGBT" community altogether and maybe use something like "Diversity community" Our "issues" aren't really ours exclusively at all, but are issues of equality that cross a broad spectrum of sexuality, identity, race, religion...etc. Now I see in the news recently people asking if "T" should even be included in our alphabetical labeling of our community....perplexing and disturbing to me.

We seem to spend much time debating things that just don't make sense in the big scheme of things, while those against us use these same points for fodder to continue to keep us down. Anyhow, that's my humble opinion and 2 cents today....love this thread, and Metropolis, you are quite the gifted writer! Hope everyone is well and at peace with the world today.

Truth and I'll be frank, it really disgusts me every time I see the devaluing of any expression of someones identity.

People try to narrow down definitions to fit what they like-want-are... and peeps doing it somehow always fit right into what they're purporting as "the way"... that says something in itself though... just another case of step on others to raise oneself up in what ever way.

Makes for a lot of misinformation and a vicious circle the stifles freedom of expression rather than promotes it as you'd think we would.

As a survival mechanism long ago, I learned to simply think like this:

I define me.

Not the person making fun of me or telling me to tone it down.

Not the person calling me names. Because, frankly, they can fuck off.

Not the girl who flirts with me and then realizes in that split second I am not a biological man.

Not the girl who stands beside me, and I have been blessed with some awesome femmes who have totally embraced me.

No, I define me.

And I define only me. I don't dare define others. I don't know their journey to this moment when I encounter them. I accept their self-definition, hoping they will accept mine and we can interact like two adults.

And I am very comfortable with me. And I am blessed with friends who love me. And now and then, I am blessed with a woman who will put up with me.

That's just how I view the world.

Jake

what jake said.

and i let others define themselves too.

it's just basic respect.