SuperFemme.....
Make me smile. Lavish me in your laughter. Split open your pain and bleed on me. Hold me whilst I bleed on you. Make me feel safe in a way that only you can. Surrender and let me love you.... Because nobody knows how many licks it takes to get to the center. Of anything. Well said!!! :toast: |
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muuuuuuuuuuch easier lol |
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I am still sitting with this question, because I really am not sure what the b/f dynamic (literally) means to me anymore. I am in a LTR that is not comprised of a b/f dynamic - yet, I find the ying/yang, back-forth, tidal, mixing and moving of "energies" is more or less the same as when I was in them. I certainly don't dismiss it or condemn it - because the reality is, if I were to be single, there would still be the attraction - but in my case, it boils down to:
I still am of the opinion that it's because of what/whom I'm attracted to, not the actual relationship dance, that's the distinction. hmmm .... |
I got caught up in the arcade and the MA elections so I forgot to reply to this post until now.
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I want to thank those who sent reps :) You understood me! |
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to make myself absolutely clear and differentiate I wanted people to understand that those who *may* see *thier* dynamic as being about traditional roles, is fine by me jack. I personally don't see MY personal happiness and brand of how I do things being about their way of life either. I know how important yradtional roles are to *some* people. god I can't believe I'm explaining this... That you don't see your own "dynamic" is about who does what: I'm glad, in my judgey life, no one should see as role-only, personnal judgement (and it's damn rare anyone would do that, even those who are old school wouldn't see it that way) It should be about - in my op - how you get along. I was pointing out that people in other kinds of relationships all do the same thing as Butch-femme people. Because there are butch-femme people , for some reason, who don't seem to know that. you wanna make this into connoted inferences in your own brain (mistaken interpretation) of my own way of being in my realtionships and what makes me happy and how your interpretation of my text makes you personally *ill* and *sad*.... dude, completely and utterly your own world of pain. seriously. I won't have nothing doing with that. is your personal problem. I've already attempted explanation. and as a point of irritation, I don't care how many people have thanked you for your point of view in you being "right" about misinterpreting my post. how PA is that? It's still wrong. And it's your problem |
But .... there are some people who consider the things that are often touted as a "butch-femme dynamic" to be a big part of it for them. In fact, I know (and have been with butches) who demand it. I personally, don't agree with those things ... in fact, I am historically known to defy anything considered traditional 50's middle america/stereotypical butch/femme stuff. I also get that it makes your heart ache.
Perhaps the lack of information provided after that statement left it open for misunderstanding. |
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but I know butch-butch couples and femme-femme couples, who do the same thing. One person likes to mow the lawn, pay the rent, fix the car, open doors, get chairs. so, if butch-butch and femme-femme do it, how is that all about the butch-femme dynamic, then? It's not. it's personal preference. you see what I'm saying? |
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I totally get you. Seriously. |
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I agree that "energy" is a huge factor in the b-f tango, but submit that it is specifically "butch" energy drawn toward "femme" energy. |
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When I had my first female lover, she was very feminine, and I found myself feeling the yin side of me rise more, which (for me, myself, and I, not remotely speaking for anyone else here) subdued my yang in a way that makes me feel less true to myself. I don't like that feeling. It's not about who opens the door or takes out the trash or cooks or washes, although such acts can be symbolic of the energy exchange if they are meaningful to the people engaging in them. It's about finding someone whose energies balance mine in a way that supports me being true to myself. For me, that means someone whose yin is more prevalent than their yang, and I find that in butches. |
lol completely agree but my personal preference for saying that is "I prefer masculine/boyish read women" cause if you are talking to people who don't do butch-femme the whole "energy thing" isn't going to be very helpful as it's not entirely descriptive.
and what's really important, the key thing, for me is that sexually they have a dick and a snatch. that's non-negotiable. it won't work if that's not there. all of the rest? is personality and interaction and how we work as two people. People vary so much in what's important to them and how they work that I can't assign "I like butches cuz they ____." Cause they don't. Not all of them. And probably only a certain percent do. And that's REALLY apparent when you go to different countries and see how they express their feminine and masculine grooves. |
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I have reread this. I think we are coming to the same point from different sides. My point and some others point is exactly the same. The dance/the energy/ etc is much more than some outward signs. Quote:
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I also understood you. As a couple our BF dynamic is joyously wonderful. That is why we took the time to go to Canada and get married. I think what I want to say is that while this is special for me other types of relationships also experience this. The joy of finding the right person is in fact a beautiful thing, be they straight, gay, lesbian, trans, bi etc. I can not say BF is "THE Best" I can only say that it is "The Best" for butches and femmes. |
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I myself am frustrated that you have come in here being sad and ill about those of us willing to share, yet you never speak to the OP's question. Because I am going to go out on a limb and say that it is very personal and complex to everyone. Seeing things more than one way isn't a personal attack. It is a discussion. I thought. So I hope you do come back and share. |
I would also like to add that some of the things HB mentioned are very important to some B/F folks. Poke around and you'll find many *old school* butches and femmes. They are just as fabulous as any of us I think.
I think a giant leap was made in suggesting that it *comes down* to open doors. Like that is the defining thing that makes any relationship or is the top rung in the ladder of B/F dynamics. But you cannot deny that it is important to some. Doing so would erase and minimize those who DO find opening doors a very complex and personal part of their dynamic. |
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aren't we all that way? every last person on the planet? have some things that we need in our relationships because of the way we work? My partner and I make a *great* team. things she can't do, I can. Things I'm shit at, she's well versed in. I need that, personally, in a partner. Someone very complimentary to where I lack, they compliment. Instead of compete -though we both get that way when we ride our bikes. I get it. edit to add... I see you meant general you, I think now, not me specifically. lol sorry. |
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The Dynamic
What does it mean to me personally....
Well, I had lived my life doing things the easy way from age 17 to 30. I knew I liked women, and I knew I was not a typical feminine woman. But I could live inside the hetero world raising my kids without fear of an abusive person taking my daughter away from me. Until 2006, when I met a butch Id'ed (female pronoun) lesbian woman. But before her, my girlfriends were loved and I never had multiple girlfriends at the same time. They all had Id'ed bisexual like I did. Comittment to a woman meant sharing her with her guy for me back then. I had realized I wasn't bi a few years before meeting my first butch but had not been out looking for someone new. Hehe we happened to come across each other on myspace and since we had a mutual friend, my ex girlfriend's brother was good friends with her.... I met her in real world. Took along Foo of course, just in case you know. I was surprised she liked me and vice versa. I had never been attracted to a butch woman before her and came to online community to learn more about it. In the process I began to learn about myself. I had been described as butch for a long time. Tomboy is a word I struggle with and debate using for myself around here, but in the hetero world it was part of my ID and butch was used to describe me by those around me. I am still not able to say I am one or the other, Butch or Femme. Everyone's interpretation is about energy and sexual tastes. I can't read myself confidently that it is accurate compared to other's. I am pretty versatile sexually and maybe kinky so that makes it more confusing. It is all just so confusing for me still after 4 years. I only know I belong here because I am sexually attracted to the people who belong here. Some days I just want to start a vote thread and get everyone to weigh in and name me so that I can stop being afraid of being judged as NOT one or the other. Oh yeah I am pretty messed up. It's like, if I ID as butch and hit it off with someone who is only attracted to butch ... and then they meet me and are angry or disappointed that my "energy" they percieve doesn't match what I portray myself to be. Will they dislike me wearing make up? Will they have expectations sexually that they do not like to reciprocate? Or if I say I ID as femme and a butch and I hit it off... will they meet me and feel mislead because I wear men's clothes a lot and do not look like what they find attractive ABOUT femmes? Will they be like one of my experiences and (pressure me) want me to present myself more feminine in appearance? Will they let me do the sexual things I enjoy doing with my lover... or only want to do them to me? Yes all of those things are subject to individual people not the ID's. Yes they are stereotypical. No I dont think of butch and femme as sexual acts but as gender Id. Yes, some people do think of them as sexuality and as what happens in bed. Am I confused by ALL of this? Yes. But the dynamic itself DRAWS me in. I don't feel like this about any other lesbian related community. Here I feel free to be me, whoever that is.... to figure it all out, and to know that there are people like me that ID as many different things in the community. Plus, no one here will think that wearing men's clothes means I want to be a man or am feeding into mysogyny against the equality of women by embracing my masculinity. I am not asserting my misguided superiority needs and am proud to be a woman and to have feminine things about me too. I just never let people put me into a box of anything woman are "supposed to" and are "not supposed to" be, do, say, or dress like. I resisted being oppressed and that has nothing to do with the butch femme dynamic except that the dynamic to me is the embodiment of that resistance. No matter what I ID as, butch or femme. :flasher: Thanks for being community in the best sense of the word. |
The dynamic happens for me when a butch and i read each other as butch and femme. It may have a sexual feel or not. But it always implies mutual recognition and respect. It means we know something about one another. To be recognized as a femme in a world where i am read as straight, to have someone understand that, to know that, in principal, the person finds that desirable -- that is a fine thing. Whether they open doors or whatever is irrelevant. Sometimes i get a zing out of that stuff, sometimes not.
Outright disrespect from a butch (for no reason) does hurt a little more than asshat behavior from someone else. i think it's because there is supposed to be a social contract between us as butches and femmes. We know each other for an important part of who we are, and we are supposed to honor that. Sexually, i sleep with people who make me feel MORE like a woman. There are femmes who can do that. i have been with butches and femmes who bring out the boy in me. i like the boy, but not in bed. |
Dragonfly, I really got alot out of what you said here, this is pretty broad conversation, and one that seems to be happening alot lately within our realm. It's very hard to explain the "butch-femme dynamic" I think, and very hard to explain how it incorporates into one's life...at least I find this to be the case with me. People ask what makes me butch...well I never thought about it until all these labels started to pop up in the culture...which I think was perhaps brought on the the invention of our internet communications and connections. Prior to that I never gave it much thought personally. But when you are behind a screen and trying to describe yourself, it's easier for me to just say "hey, I'm butch...pretty stereotypically so" but I didn't do much to "make" myself butch, it just turned out that way. I obviously have more male traits dominating my personality and physical looks than I do female. And in today's world they call that "butch" I guess! Anyway, I like who I am, I enjoy being butch as it's just my natural state of being. And this particular butch enjoys dating femmes and enjoys the b-f "dynamic"....or as I rather call it ...the "discussion or the dance".
Thanks for that piece of writing Dragonfly, got me to thinking for sure! :) |
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