Yes Dapper I compete with the men. That's where I belong. I think that a female that is trans should also be allowed to compete with women.

Yes, ok, I went a bit extreme with that. What I was trying to get across is that it is likely that the cis women she is fighting are producing more testosterone than her. Or at least that is my understanding?

Thanks for the follow up, as I wouldn't want that point lost...as that reason for the argument that Fox should be allowed to participate with women fighters.

Exactly!!!

There's also a LOT of variation within both groups--cismen and ciswomen. And a lot of overlap. Plenty of cismen have low levels of testosterone and plenty of ciswomen have higher levels of testosterone than some cismen. There's a lot more overlap than you might think. Also in size and body type, etc. Most professional women athletes could leave 99% of cismen in the dust.

I think it's complicated when you start talking about hormone levels and such things. There's not a great way to measure that. But, with that being said if a person has transitioned I think the fairest thing is for them to compete under their chosen gender. All the policing gets insane after a while.

Not a lot of overlap in actual testosterone levels per se, outside of cases where someone's gonads have been removed or the like, but the rest, yes.

(Off-topic: I like the bit about most professional women athletes outperforming the vast majority of cisgendered men. Male-supremacist types really rage over that. As an added bonus, the performance gap between men and women even at the athlete level has been shrinking over the years. The future is bright.)

Well, hormones can be measured with a blood test; I've had doctors do it. The ranges vary greatly within a given sex, but between them the difference is still pretty big. I wouldn't draw the line at "chosen gender," even as a transperson, but rather by the presence of what is probably the biggest sex-linked advantage, testosterone, and whether they're on it (for transmen) or no longer producing it in quantities abnormally high for a female athlete (for transwomen--and I think the "for a female athlete" is probably a meaningful qualifier, as it's not unusual for female athletes to have relatively high testosterone levels). Possibly even with an additional time qualifier, like two or three years of hormonal intervention, since it takes a while.

On transwomen's T levels, though, the recommended therapeutic level of testosterone for transwomen is actually very low in the female range. I haven't even had surgical interventions, just hormonal ones, myself, and I bring this up because even so I actually had blood tests showing T levels so far below the female range--even the recommended therapeutic range for transwomen--that my antiandrogens had to be reduced to raise them.

Great topic as always Medusa!

An interview with Fallon was aired on Brian Gumble's show, Real Sports. It was interesting. And it should be noted that her winning streak was ended by a woman who was born in a female body. Fallon's loss was because she came up against a better opponent. Period! Clearly there was no "advantage".

I think the only thing she or any other athlete should be judged on is what she does in the sport. Her record does not indicate that she has any advantage. I found this article and it somewhat articulates what think on the subject. Article

Do I think she or any other transgendered athlete is obligated to disclose personal information? No. Why? Because I still have not seen scientific data that shows she has any kind of advantage. And because what's in her bra or shorts is no one's business. She transitioned. She went through everything to become and compete as who she felt she was.

As to the matter of the photo Vagina posted, (paraphrasing here) so we could see what she was competing against...

1. There seems to be an assumption about what MTF players would look like and how they would perform. Not all MTF basketball players would be tall or taller than women who were born female. And there are people who were born in male bodies who were short (5' 5") who were able to out leap taller and more muscular players. Ex. Tyrone Curtis "Muggsy" Bogues. Somehow, he was able to dunk on his competitors yet he did not look like who he was supposed to compete against.

And that's all I will say on that for the moment.

I didn't mean that hormone levels can't LITERALLY be measured. I meant that trying to develop a fair and just and feasible way of judging athletes' hormone levels would be ridiculous. Plus, it's a red herring in my opinion.

As you said--the gap between women and men athletes is becoming more and more narrow anyhow. There's something more going on there besides hormones. I don't think testosterone is the only, and maybe not even the most important, factor in athletic performance. That's why I think a discussion about hormones is a red herring: because really the issue is about transphobia. That's why people freak about this--it challenges our notions of biological sex and gender on a very basic level.

Sports is one of the last bastions where complete separation of men and women is seen as not only ok, but necessary. I think treading on that blows people's minds a bit and makes them panic.

So would it be ok for transwomen to enter Bodybuilding competitions?

Because Bodybuilding is judged on size of muscle and striations. Image 1 shows that women bodied individuals cannot get below 10% body fat, it is dangerous. For male bodied individuals, bodybuilders compete below 4% body fat. There is an obvious advantage, as shown by image 2, 3. There is not a single woman anywhere that can get that big.

http://www.leewardlepersonaltrainer....3/BodyFat1.jpg

http://sdgln.com/files/imagecache/ar...long-13414.jpg

Seriously?

http://www.muscle-stars.com/images/s...orld_10180.jpg

I know a Transman who competes with cismen in weight lifting and he works just as hard or harder to obtain the goals and his medals.

I agree with Corkey, Why the hell not?

What about transwomen that still have testicles and penis attached? Should they be allowed to compete in women's sports as well?

Yes.

Why not? If someone has transitioned or is transitioning, they are on hormones to help them make that transition physically from point A to point B. For M to F, that translates to less testosterone and more estrogen as well as anti-androgens.

Here is a link about the Feminization Regimen that may help clear up some questions.

At that time, the penis and testicles would be irrelevant to the competition at hand. Meaning, they give the person no advantage. That's what I assume you are having an issue with; a perceived advantage that the transitioned/ing person would have. Correct?

If anything, they could be a hindrance to the person, given that the outside would still not match the inside and that can really take a toll. We are all affected by physical things on a mental and emotional level. Everyone. That's even more so for athletes, especially high performance and high level ones.

If they are on testosterone blockers, yes.

I am honestly wondering if you are getting the main point here? If a trans woman's testosterone levels are equal to any other females (due to castration OR testosterone blockers), then yes, they should compete with other women. If you had them compete with the men, they would do no better than any other female (natal), so it wouldn't be fair (and in the case of contact sports, like boxing, get pretty hurt. It would be no different than a natal male hitting his natal female wife).

If a female bodied person is taking testosterone to transition to male (therefore their testosterone levels are in the male testosterone range), then they should compete with the men. They should not compete with the women because they have an unfair advantage (and again, would have the strength of any man hitting a woman). But, with your argument (it is about what we have in our pants), this is what indeed would happen. Since the guy has a vagina, he should be thrown in a ring with women he can bat about. It has to go both ways. You can't just keep trans women out of women's sports, without keeping trans men IN female sports. Do you think that this is how it should go?

Instead of just putting up random pictures, how about taking any one of our arguments, quote it, and argue it? Have a conversation about it. That is the point of the message board.

Right, which is why it would be stupid for any person who has the testosterone levels of a female (a transwoman), to compete against men. They would lose.

Vagina-

In your time on this site, you have made several questionable posts regarding Transpeople and have in one case referred to top surgery as "mutilation".

We have had numerous complaints and reports about your posts and it is feeling to me like your participation in threads involving topics of Trans-anything is negative almost 100% of the time ("negative" meaning unwelcoming, suspect, or flat-out Transphobic).

I do not want the folks on this site who identify as Trans to have to wade through ugly postings about "mutilations" or non-consensual photos of pre and post Trans lives when used to demonstrate how someone "is really still a man".

From here on out, please confine your postings to threads on this site that DO NOT include discussion of Trans lives.

Thanks for your cooperation,
Mme

I went and looked. Someone's still stuck in the "WE'RE LOSING OUR BUTCHES" (emphasis on the possessive, like she owns other people's bodies and is entitled to pass judgment on what they do with them) scare.