From what I understood of the relationship, Vause talked tough but was quite in love with piper. She just didn't show it and was very selfish. Same with piper. Being obsessed with how someone makes you feel emotionally - feeling love, not acting love - is often seen in relationships. Alex and piper feel passion and codependancy. Big huge druggy feelings that is extremely addictive. They can't seperate themselves from each other. Like codependant people can't do, no matter what happens. No matter what the other person does. There is anger, resentment, vendictiveness , fighting, incredible sex, making up, honeymoon, then fucking each other over again... trying to tell each other what to do and how to do it.... Seems pretty real to me lol

Plus I like watching how prison is changing charachters, not always for the better. I like seeing the horrible side and the good side. And sometimes people act well and sometimes vicious. Seems more realistic and human. Not unidimensional TV with a moral message.

It is always enjoyable for me, as a butch woman, to see other butch women... period... full stop. But of course, it is even more enjoyable to see one in the media. So much of our daily lives as butch women, through no fault of our own, and with little or no effort on our part, is about being in society's face, so it's nice to see that addressed. The episode “finger in the dyke” that focuses on Lea Delaria's character Big Boo, examines how butch woman live with the judgment that we make our own problems and if we didn't insist on looking like such bull dykes we would experience less hatred and oppression. It is always a shock to discover that who we are seems like some kind of offensive costume to the rest of the world, even to a variety of other gay people. Butch is a costume that, if we had any taste at all, we would just take off. It is no surprise that this fuels anger in butch women. It is so disturbing and frustrating because this is who we are, it is no costume, no choice we make to be or not to be. As a butch woman it is who I am, it is my heart and soul. It is society who tries to force us into masquerading as something we are not. It wouldn't be so devastatingly heart wrenching if the prize for turning your back on your own self wasn't the offer of acceptance. Society wishes us to believe, that in order to be accepted as a human being deserving of respect and deemed worthy of love, a butch woman has to trade her very self. Anyway I liked seeing that explored, at least to some degree, in that episode by a real actual butch woman playing a butch woman. Just like it's always nice to explore butch issues on a butch/femme website.

Although boo's character creeps me out from how she behaves and some of the things that come out of her mouth, it was really nice to see her background and actually have that story. It's also nice to see other aspects of her personality.

My favourite is still poussay. And yes, I see her that way. She's very much an old fashioned type real gentle butch in my eyes. She doesn't follow rules, or "Butch codes" of behaviour. She follows her own moral compass. Which to me is the hallmark of an independent gentleman/gentledyke. I like seeing one person, once a year, on media, I actually find a bit of a dream boat.

And then you see the actress in an interview out of character wearing a ball gown and your heart sinks and mojo dies.

This why I don't have "crushes on celebs" or "think celebs are hot"
No, I think the characters they play are hot.

And it is nice to see Lea DeLaria play a butch. The character I wouldn't romantically go anywhere near, but it's bloody nice to see and a relief. And finally see that identity explored on TV.

It's also nice to see a genderqueer too. Stella identifies herself to Piper as female, clarifying that this is only because "my options are limited," alluding to the fact that she has a non-binary gender identity.

And she is covered in tattoos.

Hot.

Gosh I get so excited over tiny crumbs of characters in genders I am attracted to.

My friend and I just finished watching Season 2 again. I have been very good about not reading anything written regarding season 3 ....but it has been a challenge lol.. Anywho, we will start episode 1 tomorrow.

P.S Wentworth is a great show!!! Watched all 3 seasons of Wentworth already. I think I'm leaning more towards that being my favorite than OITNB..:police:

*NOT LOOKING*

I loveeee Orange is the New Black! I've been savoring the last of season 2 so it wouldn't feel like such a long wait for season 3...

I've been uber busy and haven't finished the last couple episodes....I have a very short day tomorrow. I think it will be a good day to get started on season 3!

:)

Totally Spoilery

It was hard for me to watch Piper become such a bitch. It was not where I thought she was headed. As Imperfect Cupcake said - it is interesting to see how jail changes people - not always for the better. However, at first, jail did seem to change Piper for the better. At the beginning of this season, she seems, again, to realize how selfish she is and she seems to care about it. Then the next thing you know, she's messing with people all over the place and cheating on Alex. However, in addition to the finding herself trajectory, there has always been the getting colder and rougher trajectory as well. And, as it was made abundantly clear, Piper was into Alex for the excitement. So as Alex became more mature, Piper became less interested.

I've also been thinking about what Anya said re: how did Piper and Alex give up their anger so quickly? One answer could be that Piper didn't - so her cheating on Alex as well as disregarding Alex's fear of the big drug dealer's revenge makes sense.

But then I've been thinking about how it really did go down in the real Piper's book. She didn't meet up with the real Alex until they were both in Chicago - at the end of Piper's sentence and for a short time (I think about 2 weeks?). She said they all did forgive each other (the real Alex's sister was there and involved too) in that short time, partly because in the awful prison system, with other more menacing people around, they had to be friends. Also, this is when Piper started to take more responsibility for her part in the crime.

Other plots:

I'm glad Poussey and SoSo became girlfriends. They have a similar past and similar sensitive personalities. It was so cool that Tasty and company stopped her from going to the psych ward.

I'm real glad Red put a pin in it.

The season definitely picked up but I didn't love it.

I watched this episode last night, although I am not a loyal viewer of the series.
Maybe this was discussed elsewhere but what I noticed interested me. In this quoted interaction and the one from the character's childhood. And then the one with the evangelical bible guy at the end.

The dad seems to be asking her for a more traditional gender presentation (clothing) in the childhood sequence, and I was wondering if it would become about gender presentation. Then later at the hospital, he asks her about her gender/class presentation again. She responds about her sexuality.
The crazy bible guy at the hospital just walked into a set-up.

I thought the writing was interesting because the deLaria's character didn't handle the last 2 interactions very well at all. I wonder if the writers were showing why the character had regrets about not saying bye to her mom. Also I wonder if the average viewer will still think gender presentation is the same as sexuality.
A friend told me to watch the episode because she wanted to see I thought the butch was presented fairly. (I am clearly the AUTHOR-AH-TAY on all things butch!)
Anybody have thoughts on this?

If it was presented fairly? Gosh. For that character, yes.
But kind of hard to say to have one person represent all of the land of Butch.

I have mixed feelings and thoughts about this interaction. Boo could have (probably should have) worn nicer male or androgynous clothes to visit her parents at the hospital. But what does she do about her hair and piercings? And although her father gives an interesting perspective on costumes, I'm not sure they're really talking about costumes. For one thing, Boo's father didn't have to wear a dress to work. He could still maintain his gender integrity. Secondly, I think for Boo and her parents, gender and sexual orientation are bound up. Their fight about her sexual orientation has obviously gone on for years and one of the battle grounds has been Boo's gender presentation. Would her father have been okay if she had shown up in nicer masculine clothes? And wouldn't asking Boo to change her gender presentation be just as damaging as asking her to hide her sexual orientation?

Another thought which seems somehow related to this, is that I have known butches, especially years ago, who always dressed more feminine when dressing up. Probably, because of the danger, they didn't wear suits or tuxedos.

Finally, in answer to your question, I do believe that many people still think that gender and orientation is the same thing, or at least closely related. Judging, at least, from my limited personal experience, they are somewhat related. I've only met one man who feels a lot like a woman inside (who doesn't want to transition) who is heterosexual. But I've met many gay feminine men. I only know a couple of women who feel somewhat male identified (who don't want to transition) that are heterosexual, but the vast majority of the butches I meet are gay (or sometimes bi).

Just my widely ranging thoughts. I felt a bit conflicted by that episode.

HoldMeSteady thanks for your thoughts.
Since I don't really watch the show I didn't know if the "gender expression = sexuality" was just handled poorly by the writers or if it was Boo's chip on her shoulder.

I am happy to have this discussion because I am a butch who plays around with my gender expression - that is, I figure out what my goals in a situation are, and then express my gender accordingly. I don't shy away from a fight, and also don't miss opportunities to be with my family.
So when I saw the show, I questioned myself.

I also am quite sure that if someone said to me or to my very straight very male hetero-identified brothers and friends "here, put on this dress if you want to see your dying mother" that I and they would without hesitation wear the dress.

It's an interesting topic and it was an interesting episode.

boo has a chip on her shoulder and she regretted not seeing her mother. she also isn't that well adjusted. I'm curious how you play with your gender expression in different situations?

liking the background stories
 

Hi everyone
I have to say that so far in viewing season 3, I really like that boo and Pennsatucky are like talking, and just generally getting along.
Pennsatucky is so well acted, even though she a real nutter lol
But she's kinda growing on me this season.
I think she's mellowing lol
You watch she will go off the rails again.
I am also warming to boo more this season to
But where as little boo gone.
Were they just training the dog?
I have heard some spoilers, and this I am not gonna say about.
But ya just know the shits gonna hit the fan.

I'll be brief so I don't derail the thread too much-
I really am a working class manual laborer (in construction). So I dress in jeans and boots and often a layer of flannel in the morning. Because sexism determines that construction is "male" job, when I dress for my job, people read that I'm dressing male. (And I really am a butch dyke, and becuase of second-hand heteronormativity, when I am dressed for my job people think I must be a self-hating woman who is trying to emulate men's clothing and jobs so they I can get with a woman.)

Isn't that hilarious people make assumptions about me and assume I have some motive behind my gender expression besides- "I'm on my way to work."

So sometimes I like to tart myself up a bit - with sequins and glitter. And sometimes I like to go all-out-mini skirt/make-up/heels. And I like to play with the intersections of class and gender- when I did drag I would sometimes dress up as a superRich man, or super-exaggerated working class guy. (I was always resentful when a drag shows the kings would perform "class" in an unexamibwd way. I express gender in whatever way I think would be most fun for me.

I prefer thoughtfulness to rigidity in every area! :pirate-steer:

I agree about Piper
 

[QUOTE=HoldMeSteady;995524]Totally Spoilery

It was hard for me to watch Piper become such a bitch.

It messed up the butch femme dynamic between her and Alex, and that Aussie butch was no match for Alex, yet Piper was so cavalier about running off with her. I know women are supposed to get hardened by prison, but Piper? With her upbringing and short time sentence, she's selling funky prison panties? Alex would think of that, not Pipes.

This is my first post here besides the "I am new and scared" one but I can talk about OITNB for hours.

I forgot-Crazy Eyes was offered sex by a fairly cute woman and acted like she was a scared virgin. But in season one she was gagging for Piper and seemed like she really loved to swirl, swirl. It stretched credulity and I like my OITNB inmates to stay in character

Kate Mulgrew (Red) on Today's Diane Rehm Show
 

I don't watch OITNB—causes me anxiety and it has too many damn triggers for me (no, I have not been in prison), but am listening to the Diane Rehm show and thought others may be interested in hearing Ms.Mulgrews thoughts.

Kate Mulgrew, from OITNB, on the Diane Rehm Show

I love Kate Mulgrew, she's my favorite Star Trek captain lol

Oitnb... I have gotten as far as eppi 3 on season 3
I just can't seem to get into this season

I hear you on Mulgrew. She's such a good and thoughtful actress. She also played the mom on the television show, The Black Donnellys, one the most realistic television shows written about poor Irish families living in NYC (Hell's Kitchen neighborhood). I thoroughly enjoy her acting.