Met my friend.........

fuck 'em ........

be who you are.....we all have many twists and turns as we walk in this world.......the good and the painful........I figure we learn from everything that happens......change really is not a bad thing........I would much rather be a person who is grows than a person who never grows.

Please forgive me if i shouldnt be in this thread and feel free to move me along. I am in the process of atarting transition because i feel i don.t totally belong in the female gender. That being said i'm not 100% sure i belong in the male either. I'm probably 70/30 but its just enough to feel uncomfortable as a female. Saying that all my clothes etc and outward display is male. Maybe if gender fluid or third gender was more accepted the way bi sexual has come to be then i wouldnt feel the need to choose. But right now i do. Maybe after transition the odds will be down to 90/10 but think i will always be a part of both. And i'm hoping my psych doesnt read this- there goes my chances of surgery! :pile:

Good thread. I understand what is talked about here.
I would also like to say something that gets me in trouble a lot, but I truly think is important to mention. I think femme is a gender as well..maybe a fourth gender or a third alongside butch, I don't know.
I don't feel I am just a woman, or just a lesbian, I am a femme and this gender of mine does say a lot about me. I hope others feel the same way.

It makes sense to me. Thank you for mentioning it.

You know, some parts of your experience don't resonate with me--for instance, the part about experiencing feminine as something "other" which is not related to gender, or your body speaking a different language than you do--but then some parts of it resonate SO strongly!! And I just absolutely love your last paragraph. Like parallel bicycles, that's a wonderful metaphor.

Other people do think I'm aligned, gender and body, and it makes my gender invisible to them. My gender is Femme. It is not the same gender as Woman, which is what people assume. Over the years I've gotten so much resistance and so much confusion that I've just given up and for the sake of having coherent conversations, I've starting referring to myself as a woman again... but my gender is Femme.

Yep, makes lots of sense to me.
I do understand the internal fighting of am I male or am I female. When I was 13 I wanted to be a boy, because of a crush I had on an older girl.
Fast forward to High School and the uncomfortable feeling I had in trying to play girl, even though I was one of the rough neck kids...tackle frisbee comes to mind. Having a boyfriend, because all the females of that time had boyfriends. Even if they really didn't want them.
Until I came out at age 30, I was still not femme even though I had stopped thinking of transitioning, I really didn't want the man body either.
It took me several years after that to figure out that I'm just fine in a female body and being the weird, cool kid, who can work and do just as much as most males.

*posting when tired is a dangerous thing. Hope this makes some semblance of sense*

This certainly resonates with me. Being a woman in no way works against me being butch or masculine.

Hi, Alex K.

Welcome to the thread! If you want to be here to talk about the "third gendered" or "other gendered" butch, than you belong here!

There are lots of guys that transition in some way physically or take T and still don't define as male. Sometimes people just want their bodies to match their mind, but that doesn't mean male or female or man or woman, necessarily.

I can say the same thing reading your thoughts over the years Greyson, and I'm glad you chimed in here.

Definitely hear you on the pronouns too, I've used Hy Hys Hym online for many years trying to at least indicate that "middle" feeling, but really don't get worked up over other pronouns.

My lady always called me "she" when we first met, but now she alternates them though I've never requested her to use any in particular, seems they just pop out back and forth at random (at first she said she surprised herself in doing so). It doesn't bother me, somehow seems like a kind of odd subconscious acknowledgment that she does see that genderqueer-ness in me.

Metro

Hey alex,

Perhaps you may want to try asking questions and discussing any concerns you may have with folks on the trans threads. This is not to say you are not welcome here because you are more than welcome, but it concerns me that you are talking about transitioning before you are really sure that is what you want to do.

It may be a big help for you to talk to some of the guys who have been through and are going through that huge process before just jumping into it because being a female doesn't feel quite right to you at this moment. If being a man doesn't feel right either, perhaps you want to discuss it more before taking drastic steps.

I hope this finds you doing well! Keep talking about it!


Sorry, I just realized I quoted Dapper instead of alex and I'm not sure how to fix that to show alex's post.

Fixed

Metro

I was kinda waiting for someone to point that out for them as well. So thank you.

Inks see it the same way. sometimes one her genders gets in an argument with her *body* but never gets in an argument with her other gender. I expereince that. The body that goes with my femme gender it a bit off the mark. But that may be my own baggage with my own conceptions of masculine (for lack of a better word. there is no word for it and that one is a sucky second to what I mean) femininity - perhaps androgenised hyper-femininity? Nevermind I can't explain it. Anyway, inks has a good friendship between her two genders. Maybe one rolls it's eyes a bit at the other on occation but that's about it.

but for both of us, we do have problems with the body matching up to the brain self-picture on occation, but it's not about genders not aligning with each other. I think anyones mulitplicity of gender can have a fine team action going on, rather than polerised bad marriages. Meaning... sorry... it doesn't *have* to be opposites nor does it *have* to be intrusive and cross purposes with each other.

I do get that for some it is. I'm not saying they need to "fly right, jack and pull up your boots straps." all I mean is, more than one gender doesn't mean an internal dogfight *has* to be the result.

You're right, and your identifying with being a woman I don't feel is has any impact on your masculinity or butch-ness either.

Just as my not being woman gendered but GQ/3rd isn't dependent on my being butch or my masculinity (or vice versa). GQ/TG/3rdG gender people have all different kinds of incarnations in life, different identities, sexes and sexual orientations.

Glad you kind of sideways pointed out something I wanted to say, in that the way I experience my gender it isn't born of or reliant on any comparison to my being Butch or masculinity...

Actually Metro being a woman, butch and masculine, as well as lesbian/queer, all tie together for me. So I wouldn't say they don't have any impact on each other or that they are separate for me personally.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I was using your post as a jumping off point for me to express some things I had wanted to say about my perspective.

Besides I was just saying my being GQ isn't reliant or born of my being Butch or masculine... I'm certain there's some correlation with my gender in life resulting in certain places I arrive at... (Butch, etc. etc.) there really couldn't not be.

I wasn't stating absolutes.

ETA: ...and had actually edited my post to make sure I reflected that.

Not all Women are Butches. Not all Third/Other Gender are Butches.

I wasn't objecting to anything in your post, just saying I don't see the various aspects of myself as not impacting each other or being separate. I don't see butch as being separate from woman for me. Glad if my post could serve as a jumping off place.

That's fine Bull, I wasn't debating anything either, I'm happy that all those things and being a woman are in line for you.

Good day.

I have said more than once in several places around the net that I claim at least 2 genders.........butch and woman being primary genders for me. I live in those 2 genders the large majority of my time.

I have also said that I do have a male id'd part of me (possibly another gender I guess) within the kink community. My leather Top/Dom space is Syr and really has nothing to do with woman and probably little to do with butch. And yes, sometimes it bites me and feels incongruent.....but I do like that space..........I just don't live it 24/7.

I rarely bottom (and don't have a submissive bone in my body) in the kink world.........when I do, I just don't think about it in terms of gender.........I think about in terms of bottom energy.

-----------
Of course femme is also a gender.........I can't even figure why anyone would say it's not.......makes no sense to me.

Body... since it's been brought up.

I do have some comfort and discomfort areas relating to mind and body connection (I know people often do but I'm relating this in the context of GQ/TG/3rdG).

I bind, and pack (though the packing varies) to sync body and mind more. I'm pretty small chested so it doesn't take any more than a high impact sports "bra" to almost completely flatten me out.

For me I wouldn't consider any degree of transition, because honestly I have enough genetic male or masculine physical markers to a point where I feel my body naturally reflects my balance in genderqueer-ness in it's already male/female appearance. Even my bone structure (facial etc.) is "heavy" with mixture of male - having large brow ridges, temporal lines, blunt fingers, robust bones etc... and female- curvature at the hips, narrower jaw line etc.... but it's actually a balance that is good with me (I think I would be a real challenge for a forensic anthropologist (gawd forbid). I also have a pretty deep voice on that side of things too and I pass pretty easily if desired.

Something perhaps worth mention. I did gain some weight back in 08' after my mom died and unfortunately it was mostly on my hips and chest... I was amazed how much that changed the appearance of my body, really threw my body away from my minds eye of where I feel ok with it in terms of what I desire to present with how I feel as genderqueer. Fortunately I've lost that weight and am back where I feel more comfortable.

I've definitely had some mirror moments (aside from the weight gain), but I think it's been along the lines of my own baggage, in my own ingrained social teachings of what we're "expected" to look like in a binary world. As I said I seem to physically fall more toward "middle". Vast majority of days though I'm happy with what I see, actually grateful because out of line with the binary or not... my body is fairly in line with my personal internal genderqueer.

Just thoughts for the day...

Metro

Wicket, there are some butches who feel their gender is Butch, without other qualifiers or other genders in addition to. Butch is generally understood to be masculine female. So I am wondering why your gender wouldn't just be Butch as a stand alone gender if other terms don't really resonate with you? I am just curious is all.

Hey there, AtLastHome (and Happy Birthday!)

Ok, so I am a little confused, and I am hoping that you can help me out here.

I have been struggling with understanding what you have been trying to get across in your posts on this thread. I have always enjoyed your posts and typically don't struggle with understanding what it is you are trying to get across, and often I am nodding as I am reading, in agreement.

But, in this thread, I am stumped. Really, really stumped.

I am having difficulty understanding why you would ID as "other" or "3rd gendered".

My understanding is that you define as female. You define as a woman. (And you define as butch).

So what makes you "third or "other gendered"?

To my knowledge third gendered/other gendered/two spirit has always been defined as someone who doesn't define as a man or as a woman and/or does not define as male or female.

You said, "Out of all the gender theories being studied, 3rd-G fits the best...". Are you referencing a certain piece of literature here that defines 3rd-G differently than the way I have defined it above (and which I think is also the general consensus of the thread)?

What definition of 3rd-G are you working from? The above, or something else?

Thanks.

Hey, Dapper!

I see the confusion. I don't know if my personal definitions will make a lot of sense to others (LOL, no pun intended) and honestly, I don't believe I fit exactly into any gender theory I have ever read about. I seem to be a varied mix and I am fine with this. But, I know that this is not a peaceful condition for many of us.

I know I have the spirit of a woman, an actual woman (as my late partner used to tell me - she had always been involved with TG butches, which upon their wanting to transition, she needed to leave as she was a lesbian and just couldn't stay). She recognized my internal satisfaction and peace with the mix of male/masculine and female/feminine. I also find 2-spirit to be freeing because it does get away from the binary and also aligns with my spiritual belief system (which I have said is central to me). However, 2-Spirit is actually based upon sexuality as in being gay or lesbian or bisexual if you look at the literature. However, today, it is being more and more understood in terms of gender identity. Third-Gender identity fits with the fact that I am a masculine in many ways and I do see it as scientifically sound when it comes to the multitude of butches like me. I also believe that masculinity springs from the feminine (animus) as a long time Jungian. I believe in a collective unconscious stemming from the archetypal Great Mother. This is of a holy and sacred nature to me (yes, I get eye rolls, here).

I guess I push my female/woman into one part of the range of gender that 3rd-G seems to allow. I look at all of gender theory as a continuum, really just as I view sexuality.

I think my personal feelings here would not fit into a neat identification scheme. I know that my 2-Spirit feelings are pretty political because we just don't seem to have an alternative to the binary in our culture. Also, 2-Spirit is revered and respected by Native American cultures.

When someone refers to me as male, or uses male pronouns, my reaction isn't about gender politics, however, I honestly think... that isn't right, I am a woman. Its kind of like how some FtM's and MtF's have felt when they were viewed as the opposite gender than what is true for them.

Gender is fluid (and transcending) to me and really has no specific bounds other than what my internal truth is for me based upon my beliefs and that is female for me. Now, I do realize, that I too, have been subjected to the traditional binary and have no other name for what is true for me. I do know, that my female/feminine ancestors are at the center of who I am, even what is male/masculine about me.

I am glad to discuss this privately in more detail because I think my spiritual beliefs might throw others off, but I am very respectful of both religious and spiritual constructs of others and am not willing to have mine taken to task publicly (not that you or anyone else is doing so).

So, my 3rd-genderism just has a female slant, just as for others it may have a more male slant given the constraints of the English language. So, female-other is all I have at present that fits for me.... but I bet something else will come along! Third-Gendered fits because it appears to integrate gender.... to me!

I feel I have the right (for me) amount of female and male attributes and remain a woman. Maybe that’s it…. I do view myself as a woman, not simply female.

I don’t know that I use the terms female, feminine, male, or masculine as many here do. Again, these are integrated for me. For others, this isn’t true and one way of making things fit better for them might be gender manipulation or modification. I don’t know and certainly have no problem with this. I know that I want others to experience the same peace I do with my gender identification internally... whatever it takes!

******
This book is interesting concerning gender and lesbianism-
Sexual Subjects: Lesbians, Gender and Psychoa…(Paperback)
by Adria E. Schwartz

Thanks for taking the time to respond, AtLastHome. I believe that I understand a bit better now.

I agree its the best of both worlds. I've had some great conversations w/ friends that have opted to start the surgical process; but that is something that I can not do. How do others feel about the reassignment surgery?

You're right Bulldog, many folks around here use Butch as their sole gender identifier. The reason I am really exploring other labels is that, in my opinion, butch as a gender is only useful within the butch-femme community. In thinking about being a part of the broader general public, although most folks still won't get it, third gender would be easier to understand. It's less specific, granted. But I think they could wrap their heads around it better. The other reason is that I am hesitant, especially in the general public, to think that adding gender categories is helpful. Seems like a huge :canoworms: to me. We add butch and femme to the gender categories, others who don't feel as though they quite fit into the now four-gender system come up with their own, and we end up with a never-ending list of gender categories. Instead, why not simply present ourselves as not male or female, simply in an attempt to challenge the accepted gender binary. That seems to me a potentially more effective goal.


Ah, so the academics are the experts in gender theory? I'm still in graduate school and have done a large amount of reading and some research around gender theory, especially butch-femme. I don't think that I can completely understand any one person's experience of gender. I can better articulate mine, but no one can box me into a specific gender theory. We are all the experts of our own gendered experience.

Darth, thank you for your post. I agree with you that the proliferation of gender identities doesn't seem particularly helpful in terms of breaking free of the binary system way of thinking or being particularly accessible to the general public, no matter how meaningful the various gender identities may be on an individual and personal level.

Butch is meaningful to me, but out in the world I am seen as female, woman and lesbian- which is fine by me. I feel as a butch woman I transgress gender and challenge the stereotypes of what woman is and can be. I feel that third gender can also challenge what man and woman can be as well as offer other alternatives to man and woman. I would use man and woman rather than male and female, which to me are biological sex and not gender.

I do feel that the limitations and stereotypes placed upon man and woman is the main problem, more than there not being enough genders. However, I do believe more than two genders exist and should be recognized.

Thanks again Darth.

Only experts in developing the theoretical positions and doing research. I do as you do in drawing from theory and applying what makes sense to me. That is what I mean't by taking license. I have a fundamental understanding of the literature, but, it isn't something that I study deeply as do many TG folks I know. Probably this is due to my not viewung myself as Trans and have no reason to look deeply at reassignment issues. It does help, though, to understand key elements in being able to talk with transitioning friends and offer support.

There is an academic study of gender based on theory and research and is part of curriculums all over the world. Helpful in that there has not been a lot of research done in the past. Even the stats on the numbers of those choosing reassignment are sketchy. It would seem that the development of academic curriculum as well as research studies would help in political areas such as in employment discrimination. And also help with kids and their parents deal with gender identity differences (from the binary) earlier and with some social supports.

I do hear you about our own personal experience of gender. I know that there is quite a mix for me in how I view myself and often, I don't fit into any given box when it come to my own personal gender distinctions.

Is there anyone on this site who considers "Butch" or "Femme" their gender and/or sex?

Just "Butch" or "Femme"

Not "Female/Woman Butch or Femme" and not "Male Butch or Femme"

Just plain ol' "Butch" or "Femme"...the end?



Dylan

I did for most of my life Dylan. In my thinking, or maybe the environment I came from to be Butch did imply you were not a "woman" like the others. But, you were not a "man" either.

Then the 80s came along and the gender theory began to bust open the accepted binary. Initially I did not see the big differences between an FTM and a Butch. Now 20 something years later, I have taken in so much new information and changed some of my beliefs.

So know, I no longer consistently identify solely as "Butch."

I meant to say "So no, I no longer consistently identify solely as Butch."

I'd thought about butch as a gender, the thing for me is I don't see how my gender is dependent in any way to my being female bodied and having masculinity.

In other words if I wasn't a "butch" I'd still be genderqueer... if I wasn't masculine I'd still be genderqueer.

Like Greyson, I came from the school of thought (and literature), that butch was a gender separate from woman and man. One was neither woman nor man, but just simply butch. The noun. If you said that you were a butch woman, then you were using butch as an adjective and not as a noun (a gender).

When I came to B/F.com (late 1990's), I noticed that the above was not the case. Subsequently, I did not identify as "simply butch" on said site, as I am not a woman.

Quoting myself for clarity...


ETA:Meaning, that the above was not the case, for the some of the members on that site, specifically