I believe that in the context of this forum, traditional refers to stereotypes, particularly masculine stereotypes. I don't think stereotypes of any gender will be leaving soon, they vary from culture to culture, but as long as there are people, there will be stereotypes, and there will be those individuals who elude stereotypical catagorization.

I think its important to talk about gender stereotypes, however I don't think this is the thread for that. There are folks here identifying how they feel about characteristics and behaviors they possess. To call it crap, or claim it no longer exists, denies them their voice, denies them their self-definition. I don't think this is a place for saying something is right or wrong, but listening. If you don't agree, don't read, better yet, start your own thread to discuss what it is you want to talk about.

So I have to ask cause i don't know if I am you right..

Are you mad about something? Did my difference in masculine traits not go with what you like think? Should I have not expressed my POV?

Curious...

Do you really feel someone is being erased by words here?

Thank you so much for your post Snowy! My masculinity does not come from traditional notions of what a man or male is supposed to be since I am neither.

I am a butch who has loved walking girls home from school and carrying their books since the time I could walk, lol. I do enjoy what some call "old school" or "the dance." However, this has nothing to do with any traditional ideas of masculinity or how a butch is supposed to act or be. It is just me. I was this way long before I even knew what butch was.

I love it when femmes and other feminine women embrace their dashes and flairs of masculinity. That's powerful.

I also loved what Apocalipstic had to say about how as a femme she doesn't fit the stereotypes in terms of what women are supposed to think and feel.

To be honest, I think everyone is looking for a partner who is strong (femmes being among the strongest people I have ever known) and kind, no matter what their gender or what gender they are attracted to.

Women can and do fully embrace masculinity. I fit the "dance" just not the stereotypes. ;)

I'm going to be difficult here again

But, um, aren't ALL of our (speaking from a Western POV) definitions and ideas of masculinity and femininity cultural and thus biased?

I mean, if One asks me to define what makes Xperson masculine, I'm only really going to be able to rely on traditional, cultural statements of that definition.

Walking someone home from school and carrying books (using these as examples because they were the last examples to be brought up) are traditional cultural concepts

ANY 'example' or 'definition' of masculinity or femininity are going to be culturally based...as far as I can think of.


And Again, They're Predominately White, Western Based, Because These Ideas Are Not (necessarily) The Same Throughout Other/Each Culture,
Dylan

Dylan, I agree with you that notions of what is masculine and feminine are culturally based and in Western cultures based on white culture in particular.

Just to be clear, I do think walking girls home from school and carrying their books is a stereotype often associated with masculine courtly or courteous behavior. I just happened to enjoy doing that from a young age.

Ok, so then, here's where I get completely confused in these conversations

If 'traditional' ideas of masculine/feminine are culturally based, and

If One believes those cultural bases are misogynist, and

If One is going to scoff 'traditional' ideas of masculine/feminine

Then why are we always talking about it?

I mean, why aren't we all just happy with who we are? And if we are all happy with who we are/however we are...why are we always talking about this?

I don't mean that in a harsh tone, I mean it seriously. I mean, are we trying to redefine it? What is the ideal outcome of (say) this conversation?

I'm really not trying to be obtuse here.

I mean, are we talking about the ways these 'traditional' ideas are perpetuated in our community? Because I've seen that happen to both femmes and butches, and that's pretty crappy...but then, on the other hand, if traditional ideas are someone's cuppa, then, I have a choice to participate or excuse myself, right? I mean, some people like all that traditional stuff, and some folks don't like all that traditional stuff, right?

I mean, I don't think someone should base their whole 'worth' on some stupid traditional idea of what is or isn't masculine/feminine...and I DO get a bit riled when I see stuff like, "this is how a butch/femme *should* act"

And I do get a little riled up when I see masculine/feminine being equated to what het men/women do...and that's how 'butches and femmes *should* act'

So, is this what we're talking about in this thread

And Atlast brought up that some of the 'traditional' ideas are based in misogyny...can someone please give me an example, so I'm more clear on exactly what we're talking about there? Because, I DO think *some* (notice the little asterisks, please) notions are rooted more in biological differences than 'traditional sexism' (notice the bunny ears, please). Oh, and I'm not saying that just because they may have originally been rooted in biological differences, they're not sexist in today's society.


I Hope This Post Is Clear, Although, I Have My Doubts,
Dylan

I am not mad at you, Snowy, however I think your questions would be great in another thread. I did not appreciate AtLastHome's comment about crap, and I have addressed that personally, with her. I do disagree with you regarding your statement that traditional went out the window. Its a nice thought, but we are a long ways from achieving that. I think many people have expanded their notion of what masculine is, not everyone has. It doesn't sound like you are into "traditional" masculinity to me. I thought this thread was for those, who were. And yes, I think when you refer to characteristics or behaviours that people have used to describe themselves, as stifling, you are definitely putting them down.

I must of misread then, cause I swore that this thread was about *discussing* masculinity and traditions.. I believe the OP asked for our thoughts on this, I mean I did not honestly think this was just for traditional type folks..

You assuming I am not into *traditional* masculinity is jumping the gun no? Do you know this for sure? I don't get where you think I am stiffling or putting anyone down, what I was DOING was discussing or rather asking and wondering what is that exactly?

I do think we have evolved from the whole me tarzan you jane theory of us. I dunno maybe I am wrong and you are foreign to the evolved concept (me assuming) I mean really do we want to be stuck in these presumed roles? Curious I really am? Kinda has a scent of misoginy, a lil machismo going on and other stuff..

Whose "traditions" are you talking about?

I also did not realize that this thread was just for those who are into traditional roles, I thought it was a questions about how we see it today.

Liam..

Yanno it really bothers me when you say....

"It doesn't sound like you are into "traditional" masculinity to me" it makes me cringe when I read it and here is why..

You are assuming, and I wonder if you assume this because I am not the kind of femme who is the little girl, the girly girl, I am that other type of femme, the bossy, toppy, who likes those boys who *bottom* With this may come the assumption that the boy I fuck is not masculine or a real guy because well what real guy wants to be fucked, guys fuck not the other way around.

I feel like I have to defend myself to my southern father who assumes because I am an assertive woman no *gentle* type is going to look my way.. I am being honest your post to me felt a bit like you asserting your masculinity on me.. I don't respond well to chest thumpers and I wanted to be honest with you.

I hope that is not the case and this is not what I am really reading


I can't imagine how many femmes refrain from posting, who will back down from oppresive shit like this, I just can't never have never will...

Do you see how this can be the real silencing, oppressing tool??

When I read the OP I felt they were asking for a discussion about what is deemed "Traditional" masculinity. I didnt think this was a thread to discuss "what is a real man" thread, so I am going to go with the "it is a discussion" theory. I also remember reading an invitation to femmes to assert their opinions!!!!

When I hear "Traditional" masculinity, my mind screams role segregation. Segregation of education, housework, profession, decision making, childcare/ child education. I don't equate "Traditional" masculinity to opening doors, holding out chairs, blah, blah and etc. I DON'T equate masculinity with Topping/bottoming or D/s roles. IMO those acts are my "get to's" in any relationship I am participating in not gender defining to me as a guy.

Breaking down masculinity in todays society would entail looking at the impact of gender on a global scale not on an individual scale. How gender relationships connect institutionally and create global gender order/priviledge with in globally large communities(YES) and large buisness corporations (YES) that act as large communities. I would think it would be like breaking down and understanding any other hierarchy system or systemic priviledge pattern.

The only thing I assumed here, is that this thread was for folks who embrace and like traditional masculine characteristics. My apologies to all, if I am incorrect.

Snowy, your comments earlier led me to believe that you dislike the notion of traditional masculinity, you tossed it out the window and went on to something larger, I thought you found it stifling.

I guess that happened long ago for me Liam, the tossing out of *traditional* masculinity. I did not get told I had to be this kind of girl by my folks, Dad tried for a good 6 months gave it up each time I looked at him with the wtf look. So maybe my evolved idea of masculinity is foreign. I mean what is *traditional* masculinity? I am still confused on that, is it the whole guys have the say so? You Tarzan me Jane?

Am I less femme because I ooze masculinity at times? I guess I can see how you were lead to your confusion, I too am confused, do you like the role of being tied into a boxed gender role? Is this why your idea of masculinity is so stiffling to me, because it's kinda oppressing and confining. I am really curious here.

What are these traditions? Who started them? Is it wrong to assume they scream of Male Status startings?

I think the Catholic Church started the male traditions thing to keep control of the church in the hands of males.

Read the OP. In fact, not. In any case, one thing i do miss about the dash site is that if anyone, even the OP but especially someone NOT the OP, came in and suggested to others that they might want to leave the thread -- they'd get slapped down.

Just a community values time out moment -- that's not something that i think we should be doing.

Your "evolved" idea of masculinity is not at all foreign to me. My notion of traditional masculinity has nothing to do with Tarzan or Jane. I don't think you are less anything, in being who you are. I don't feel tied into a boxed gender role, that must be your perception. Once again, great questions.

Martina, I wasn't suggesting that anyone leave the thread. I thought that the questions would be best in another thread.

What is the traditional lined example of what this thread is about..

Once again I thought it was a discussion on it, and other forms...

I thought we were discussing how to move away or not from those constricting forms..

I obviously misunderstood what this thread was about, Snowy. Have fun discussing.

I felt like the above post was condescending, silencing and for sure an invitation to leave the thread if one doesn't agree with this poster on traditional masculinity.

So yeah Martina, I feel ya.

Would of been cool having a dialogue with you, you answering my questions, discussing ideals..

such is life eh?

So instead of discussing, answering questions everyone unsubscribes?

Anyone out there have an example of Traditional Masculinity??

Bueller??

Does Traditional Family equate Nuclear Family models or are we talking about my Papa and his machismo?

Traditional is very subjective.

How does this fit you, or does it even fit your way of how you are masculine? Do you feel you have evolved from this example?

Am I being to intrusive? :|

Can't we all just get along? ;)

I am the OP...and in the interest of clarification...the intention of the thread is this:

I had a discussion with my father and, as stated earlier in the thread, I agree with some of his ideas of "masculinity" and disagree with others. This thread was started for the purpose of curiosity. I wanted to know others' opinions on what their idea of "traditional" masculinity is...and how that does, or does not fit into their lives. I wanted opinion, discussion, dialogue, etc...from the entire community. I originally threw the question out to the butch/ftm members of our community...but then went back and amended the original post. Obviously, we femmes also have a place in this discussion as to how our idea, or society's idea of "masculinity" does, or does not fit into our lives as well.

I see your points and I see Liam's, too. It figures.... I analyze the hell out of so much. And get caught up in the abstract often.

The new femme thread that takes a look at some of these issues is really helping me. There are a multitude of stereotypes about all of us, including our trans members. And to me, it just ends up being a perpetuation of the binary for all of us. Makes me crazy! There are times, I just want to live on an island with my dog and cats.. just us!

I'm thinking, however, about what Liam is talking about in terms of why we (me included) have the negative attachments to some of the traditional gender and role stereotypes. Some of these are not negative attributes at all, until we assign negative feelings to them which usually (for me, anyway) come up due to things that I have experienced or seen someone I care about experience.

This discussion got me thinking about my brother's early death (age 47) who as a male in this culture (along with specific ethnic ideas of what males/masculinity should be), who was an alcoholic and would not seek treatment based upon many stereotypes of what masculine or being male means in this culture. Now, he also was born in 1946, a teen in the 50's, was the only son in a family that viewed passing on our name as only legitimate through males. His drinking was not recognized as anything but what men do for a very long time (the denial was very strong down the patriarchal line). And to seek help for alcoholism (wasn't called that- he became a problem drinker when he passed the teen years). Because we lived in a small town and he was a well known business person involved in the community, he wouldn't dare go to AA. He was a hunter and did all the man-guy stuff, including womanizing. You know, it was the booze, not him, really. And hey, a man that can drink, is a man's man.

In the end, he did not take responsibility for his addiction and actions and allowed all of this traditional male behavior nonsense to kill him. I make no excuses for his not dealing with his problems. However, I can see how gender stereotypes can tip the balance with these kinds of things. It wasn't manly to admit you had any kind of problem with anything and do something about it. Especially if treatment was medical or involved therapy or even self-help programs such as the 12-step programs.

On the other hand, look at what our society does to the female alcoholic. Ever hear, nothin' worse than a woman drunk? Women are so sloppy when they drink too much. She's a bad mother because she is an alcoholic. I don’t care to be around anyone that is drunk, woman or man! My brother had a child and was a single parent, but no one ever said anything about his inability to parent effectively due to his drinking. In fact, he was praised for being a single parent, yet, I took his child away from him and drove him places many times and just brought him to my house because I didn't want him to drive with the kid while he was drinking, or just plain drunk.

Probably rambling..... I just want a new set of gender roles that align with our part of a time when we have so much more to work with and build a more healthy world concerning gender identity and behavior. Yes, I am ideological…. I want us to leave something behind that kicks these stereotypes to the curb!!!

The link to the Fierce femme Thread:

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...ead.php?t=1126

So, Snow, if some people LIKE traditional roles of masculinity and femininity in their relationships then they're neanderthals who stifle others, because they haven't evolved yet?

Am I reading you correctly?,
Dylan

//Little techie beanie on

And you know why they did? Because someone reported. I have yet to see a report on this thread. Is there an issue that you think is something a mod or admin need to address? Push the button. However, I have this feeling that this can be sorted amongst yourselves like adults and that a mod doesn't need to come in here

//Little techie beanie off.




On another note: crying. I have discovered why some men don't cry. It's not for a lack of trying but because of a physical limitation to. Prior to being on T, I would tear-up and nearly be sobbing at SPCA commercials. Today, nothing. I can't even try to cry if I wanted to. In general, many of the "swing emotions" seemed dull compared to before T. So in some cases the lack of crying may not be an emotional issue but rather a physical limitation of T (I'm not unique in this, that I can attest to).

Something to add into consideration as a whole when considering that someone might be "emotionally stagnate".

Well Reverend since you asked so nicely...

I have felt this way when attempted to be shoved down my throat, or somehow I am less than femme because I do not accept these roles that are not part of who *I* am.. So yes when it came down to it, I have said hey, knock it out with your caveman ways and stop stifling me... If you don't like how I am and how I like things in my world..

Step off..

That has been my experience and how I deal with it...

*I* don't like being confined make sense?

Yeah, I get what you're saying...about people putting their ideas of "What is Feminine/Masculine" on you (personally)

But let's say, I'm ovah here livin' Mahhh Life with Mahhh Woman, and we stick to traditional roles of masculine/feminine...and we're both quite happy doin' so...livin' in bliss

Does that make me a knuckle-draggin' Neanderthal? Does it make Mahhh Woman an Edith Bunker who "just can't think for herself"?

I mean, yeah, I think we've ALL dated that one (or two or three) random person who has some ideas of masculine/feminine that don't jive with our own ideas, and I'm sure we've all felt limited/stifled/put upon in those situations where we're told we're not butch/femme enough for ThatPerson.

But in this particular conversation, I didn't see anyone say anything about you (personally) aside from Liam saying something that maybe you don't partner with those people who are into (what's deemed) "traditional" masculinity. I mean, I kinda get the same idea from all of your posts. If it's not your cuppa, then it's not your cuppa. If it is your cuppa, then it is. But based on your posts (throughout the years), I too have gotten the sense that you don't live your life following 'traditional' ideas of masculinity/femininity. I mean, you've said that a number of times in this thread, no? Am I misreading you? I didn't see where anyone said that's a bad thing...it just is what it is.

But (again) if me and mine wanna have at all the "traditional" stuff, does that make us cave people who don't have a working neuron in our brains?


Dylan

I am not talking about you, or him or ALLLLLLLLLLL peoples.. What I am talking about is the people who do act like this, who do try to girly me up more, who call me a pet name, who are uncomfortable with me and my strength, who super impose their traditional bullshit on me so that *they* can thump their chests....

It's out there it exists...

I guess I thought we were discussing in this thread hence my experiences put out there.

Maybe I misread....

please go vacuum and cook dinner wearing fuzzy pink slippers, Schmoopy.

See? That is a reason for you to smack me.

I love cooking and vacuuming wearing fuzzy pink slippers.

You may make this face :| but it's cool with you.

smooches

This is really interesting to me and I have heard this from friends on T. I have no knowledge concerning any studies about this, however.

The men in my family did cry. Not as much as the women, but, there just wasn't the same stigma attached to men emoting or crying in my ethnic and cultural background. Although, when my dad and brother were in the company of WASP men, I remember thinking they had tuirned into aliens. I'm sure ethnic/cultural perspectives influenced things.

I'm wondering about any cross-ethnic/racial/cultural studies about this? Ones that look at biophysiological aspects between racial/ethnic traits and crying concerning men? Probably for another thread... Just curious if you or anyone else has any info about the physiological structures here across cultures.

Something else that strikes me is the pervasive attachment in our culture that equates the ability to emote with crying. Seems like this is a pretty narrow view as people demonstrate emotions in varied ways no matter what gender they are. And many women (of all butch consellations and well as femmes), have problems with crying.

I haven't seen any physiological studies but in a truly non-scientific manner, in my trans group, when I attended there was a huge spectrum of guys (from all sorts of races, cultures, etc.) and those that were on T seemed to uniformly state the same thing: crying became near impossible, even if one wanted to. Not because of stigma but rather because of T.

I think if they could do more studies on transguys on these kinds of issues, I think it would highlight/spotlight the same issues for non-trans individuals and identify things that are truly culture/societal versus physical. (nature vs. nuture)

Well, yeah, I totally agree with you from a personal perspective.

I'm sure just about anyone would agree with you from a personal perspective that whenver One is subjected to Another's impositions, One is not going to be too happy unless One agrees with Another's stance.

I mean, I certainly didn't like the times I've dated someone who had ideas that didn't coincide with my own on "This is what a butch does, This is what a femme does". Honestly (without trying to sound alarmist), I think/wonder if some people sometimes use these statements as 'weapons' (term used loosely). I think they can be used hurtfully. I also think/wonder if some people don't use these ideas as a means to actually break off the relationship without actually having to be adult and just break it off...you know what I'm sayin'? Now, I'm not saying that's an 'all the time/every time' kind of thing, but I am saying, I do think it happens. But then sometimes, "That's why they call it dating", yanno?


Dylan