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I am attracted to human beings.
I am also attracted to the brains of human beings. If you cannot get my brain to third base you are not going to get my body to first base. So I guess I cannot properly answer the original question because it is too limiting. Sorry. |
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oh no not so! I had this sweet little submissive ftm that came to take care of me a few times. HE did the best laundry ever and looked pretty damn good bare foot, in the kitchen cooking and cleaning. I use to call him my fag because he was as nelly as they come. I'd love to find another one but maybe a little older and has his head more together. |
Wow did this take off!!! Quite illuminating, actually. And has really made me think and analyze myself, my actions, my behaviors, and my feelings. And here's what I've come up with for myself.
I said before I've been struggling for years over who it is exactly I'm attracted to. And "struggle" is actually putting it mildly. I've always said I fall in love with the person, not what is on the outside. To this day, this remains a true statement. I've been with a lot of women, always butch, yet also always felt something was missing. And they probably knew it, cos I wasn't into their female parts like a "good lesbian" should be. (My words for myself, not directed at anybody else.) I've tried my best to be attracted to bio-males (and yes, I'm going to use that terminology as it helps make my point) and yet have never been able to find one that I have chemistry with. And I know some really nice, loving, sensitive bio-males, but they just aren't for me. My life would be so much easier sometimes if I was, from family relationships to societal interactions. There is something about a trans-guy that fits me to a T. I've dated a few, and NEVER thought of them as "woman". But can I define why it is that I am attracted to the "trans-guy" and not "bio-male". Nope, sure can't. Wish to God I could. I can, though, say that I do not want to be with a woman again, no matter how butch she is. My own needs don't get met when I am with a woman, no matter how butch she/hy may be. It's just as simple as that. It's a gender that doesn't fit me, although it fits better than the male gender. I still get blisters when I put that shoe on, though. I am attracted to the gender of a trans-man. I don't expect anything other than he be himself, as I am myself. On the flip side of the expectations, though, I've actually been told that I wouldn't be attractive to anyone of the trans-guy gender because I'm not high femme. I don't agree with this statement, and actually find it insulting not for myself, but for the gender. It's a backwards way of saying that a trans-guy has to be with a high-femme woman (whether she considers herself straight or not) to justify and emphasize his masculinity. And that just isn't so. And I'm not saying that the ones of this gender that are attracted to high femmes are so because of the aforesaid reasoning, I'm saying the person who made that statement needs to rethink their beliefs. People are attracted to people, whatever gender they may be attracted to. I id myself as queer because it's a simple way to make my preferences known. I'm not, though, going to be attracted to someone just becausehe is trans. That is only the first step. There is a whole lot more that needs to be known before I can say I'm attracted. I'm just saying he has a hell of a better chance at getting my attention than someone from another gender does. |
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Yep, no problem there. But saying, "Transmen are just so sensitive", then attributing that sensitivity to their 'woman-side', followed by de-manning them with "It's a two spirit thing" is just beyond offensive. WHY do transguys HAVE to be 'dual gendered' to be sensitive? WHY do they have to be 'put in their place, and reminded of their 'journey' <gag>"? What is it that's so freakin' difficult to admit that transmen are men, and you (general) happened to have dated a sensitive, nice MAN? Why is it immediately chalked up to his 'woman-side/two spiritedness/dual gender/(assumed) socialization"? I mean, how is that any different than if I were to say, "Mahhh Woman is just so manly when she fixes the car?" Why is it rude to strip Mahhh Woman of her gender/sex when she does something stereotypically 'masculine', but it's perfectly acceptable to not only attribute 'being sensitive' as 'womanly', but also to then strip transmen of their sex/gender? Seriously?! If he cleans up his kitchen before you come over, did he clean it up because of his 'journey'?...his two-spiritedness?...because he 'was a woman once' and got such a good education in cleaning kitchens? Is he stripped of his manhood, once again, because he cleaned the kitchen, or because you (general) have to justify to others in the community that you've dated/are dating a man man man? Do people feel 'less stripped' of their 'queer community card' if they can keep their transman 'part woman'? We don't date better. If you've been on a date with a guy who held doors for you, FAN-freakin'-tastic...transmen are not better daters or 'more aware'. Yeah, I agree 100 percent that ME statements are fantastic and would definitely save a lot of this same conversation? Dylan |
outside of fetish, how would someone base their attraction on "being formerly" anything?
dylan--don't start because the title clearly says FTM. ;) |
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Thank you Linus, but I'm not sure. Sorry. I just didn't care for the tone turning from fun and light, to snarky, bitter and judgmental. It made me feel if I chimed in, I'd be - or my words would be - "targeted" and fault found. I'm afraid to pick out a specific post, for fear that person may think I'm referencing just them or their posts. It's the change of tone and discussion that turned me away, not one specific post. |
wow ..lol I came home all these posts ! I need read threw but I wanted to say thanks for who have posted :)
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I've moved a whack of posts to over here: http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...d.php?p=113253 to ensure that this thread continues as started and the other continues in a new thread.
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Linus took this post to the other thread. It actually belongs in here, although probably has a place in the new thread.
'Two Spirit' is about Native Americans.........ya know........those pesky folks who lived on this land prior to white people invading.......... I kinda wish all these white folks would stop stealing cultural terms from Native Americans. Two spirit is not for white folks to use anytime they want. Try learning before you appropriate terms from other cultures. Two spirit literally means 'having both a masculine spirit and a feminine spirit'. I don't personally know any white FtMs/transmen who claim they have a feminine spirit. They only claim a male spirit. Do some research folks......... |
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I'm not sure why I'm attracted to a particular person... or what attracts me to them. I don't have a list of expectations of physical markers or appearances to check off when I first meet someone. I don't find myself attracted to a "general" population of individuals or a multitude of specific gendered persons... it is about the individual for me. With each individual that has made my heart flutter (which has been VERY few)... it's always something different that attracted me. But reflecting upon the individuals that have certainly caught my attention... some of the common factors have been masculinity; common likes & dislikes; a definite, mutual, strong chemistry; mechanically inclined and they don't put me down for also loving all things mechanical; intelligent (and not afraid to be cocky or a smartass sometimes); strength (inner and physical); a very witty, fun personality; (a few other traits I could bore you with); and for some strange reason, dark hair, dark eyes and sun-kissed warm skin from working outside. I am NOT attracted to the "bad boy" type; but do get flutters when someone I'm attracted to likes motorcycles, large trucks and other heavy machinery (this goes along with my love of all things mechanical - especially things with large, loud engines -"MORE POWER BABY!") What attracts me to someone who is TG or FtM? Ummmm :deepthoughts: maybe it's the way my heart skipped a beat when he stepped down out of his truck, all HAWT in his sunglasses, new jeans and dark hair just cropped short? YOWZA!! That look of confidence just made my heart flutter!! I took a double take that day! Yeah... and I got a picture of that truck too!! ;) ;) What attracted me to my first crush/first B/F relationship years ago with someone who IDs as Soft Butch and has very strong masculine energy/traits? How she looked in her biker leathers...on the back of her Harley! or decked out for work in her oxford long sleeve shirt, jeans and work boots. Ummm, and her dark, wavy hair and sexy sunglasses. Damn! come to think of it... I NEVER did get a ride on that Harley!! But the sight of her very masculine "tough" self made me melt. She now has a crush on my sister!! LOL Maybe I was attracted to a certain individual when they were so thoughtful when they handed me my favorite ice cream during a stressful moment? I found them each attractive in their own unique, personal, individual, special way. Especially their personalities and their inner strength....their physical strength was an added bonus. After I broke it off with my old crush... I used to think I couldn't be attracted to someone that wasn't Soft Butch. I've changed, and so have my personal attractions... but I still LOVE apple pie!! Quote:
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some of these posts have a tone of female self-subjugation.
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A FTM yes I'd date ... a MTF no. *but, I'm happily taken so it doesn't even matter for me anymore... My honey is a stone butch, my daddy, my love.. and I couldn't be happier.. :) And hy is the perfect amount of masculine for me!!
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I know one or two and they are clearly not men, but are butch women (and proud of it!). Both have had bottom surgery, as well as the best set of tits money can buy. |
Hey thanks
Hey everyone,
I actually came to look at this thread to see the responses. I'm a FTM, and WAS pretty convince that only girls who are totally unstable would ever consider dating a trans-man. Since coming out trans, I have had 4 girl friends. 3 of which tried to make me stop transitioning by threatening to leave (even though they knew what I was before we began dating), and 1 who was okay with it but was very unstable herself. I had one hook up who basically said she loved my personality, but she was a lesbian and I was a boy- and she didn't want a boyfriend. It sucked majorly. So I've been single for a year now, and I pretty much gave up on the idea of love, marriage, family, etc. Anyway, I just want to Thank everyone for there responses. You have no idea what it mean to me personally that this thread even exsists, and that there are people out there who actually care about a person rather then what they call themselves or how thier body looks. Maybe there is hope after all. :) |
Let me start off by saying I did not read any posts prior to the 1st one.
MY attraction to FtM's is that they know who they are!! I have been in relationships where the butch has issues with sexuality and religion and completely forgets who she is. I love the struggle that FtM's have dealt with and is ready to move on with their lives!!! THEY ROCK!!! |
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What would attract me to FTM
Looks would be a big one for me, how they handle themselves, how they would treat me as a Lesbian. |
i am very attracted to ftms, but i suspect that i am not the kind of partner most ftms would want...
i would never date a cisguy i would never date a butch-identified mtf my desire just does not get "pinged" by either of those- i am not going to explain or defend that any further than "pinged"...we can argue all day about what i should feel and why, but i have yet to succeed in deciding to feel or unfeel anything, so the best-reasoned and most persuasive argument in the world will get us exactly nowhere therefore, despite being veryveryvery attracted to transguys, it seems obvious that i am attracted to the trans-energy and not the guy-energy or if you want to be really dichotomous about it you could say i must not truly see transmen as men, because if i did i wouldn't be attracted to them, or that the fact that i will date anywhere on the butch-to-stone butch-to trans spectrum means that i am including transguys under the female umbrella at least one fo the transguys i've dated has found that offensive it is a sad situation, because i do think transguys are totally hot as their own category and as the partner of a trans person i cannot conceive of trying to impose my will on whether and how a transguy might choose to transition i would like to hear from transguys- does seeing you like this make me ineligible as a partner? |
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i personally don't think that i see an ftm as female...personally i think i see ftms as the only exceptions to my default prefernce for butches. however i have been informed that the fact that i WILL date ftms but will not date cismen or butch-identified mtfs means that i MUST see ftms as female so the question is whether transmen think that a girl who will date a transguy but will not date a cisguy or a transwoman therfore does NOT see a transguy as male |
however i have been informed that the fact that i WILL date ftms but will not date cismen or butch-identified mtfs means that i MUST see ftms as female
I may need to read the whole thread, at the moment I am not in a space to do that...I don't understand the above statement...I wonder by whom you have been 'informed' these things?...are there some people who have the Last Say in what's what? what I am saying is: if a transman ids as a man/male/non-female and someone thinks to themselves, 'he's not really a (real) man so it's okay for me to date him'...there is/are some big problem(s) going on...seems to me, it would be best to stand down and find someone who's id you can respect and are attracted to, and date them... nina |
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i don't think "'he's not really a (real) man so it's okay for me to date him" however my (very insecure) trans ex jumped my sh!t a couple of times when he he asked me if i was attracted to so-and-so and i said "no, b/c he's a cisguy" and from the two responses i have gotten, i am hearing that many others agree with him- the fact that i am attracted to transguys but not cisguys means that i don't see transguys as guys this is not what i think, but it was what my ex thought and seems to be what Neen and Liam are telling me |
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you guess i'm not ineligible? (and i see how my asking THAT is a testament to how convoluted the original question was...i seem to be very good at those) |
Well I am partnered with a transman and I would not date a cissexual man. I'm queer. I'm confused by this line of thinking and how I might be considered transphobic or "icky". I honor and respect my partner's gender. My not wanting to date cissexual men has nothing to do with my partner's gender. It has to do with my sexuality, which is queer.
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thank you i feel reassured now lol...i definitely don't think of ftms as female but i have never had a good response to that particular accusation...cuz...the way i feel is the way i feel, regardless of whether it makes logical sense. |
Got it.
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I get what your saying, it took a couple of readings, but I get it. :) Not here to judge you one way or the other. You have the right to like/love/desire whomever and however. Cool. I know who I am, and don't need nor require anothere's opinion or perception of who I am or am not. People are always sooo preocupied about shovin' other people in little boxes, as if that would make the world or their lives a more logical place. Love and let Love be what Love is. (this label thing is wayyyy over rated) |
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I dont think I would date a CIS male again. But I most certainly would date a FtM. I hope this is not offensive to anyone, but I am overjoyed that FtMs have given men back to me. I have said this in the past and I will say it again....I can have incredible sex with CIS men, but the minute they open their mouth to speak, all the glamour and heat goes out the door. It is their socialization at fault. Something is distinctly different in the socialization of the CIS male and the FtM male. Having been put through or surrounded by female socialization efforts, FtMs can reach beneath my skin and touch me where it counts...places CIS men sometimes arent even aware exists. And because I have walked in the hetero world and have been with CIS Men, I dont treat FtMs I date like a real butchy woman. They are men to me. I am not threatened about losing my lesbian license because I am bowling with a FtM.
I also need to point out that this whole thought of "if I think this way, then I cant think that way" is a really bad teeter totter to be on. The wonderful thing about my opinions is that I dont limit them to a certain number of considerations. Its not just men and women, butch or femme, FtM or MtF, transgender or queer....I can literally see and dream and envision an incredible bouquet of possibilities. Especially in regard to me. I am not a straight girl. I am not just a lesbian. These two dont make me a bisexual because it insists on a binary system. And I am sorry, I have had much more than these two choices...I have had incredible dates and relationships with people who didnt fit the "standard".... and thats how primal we go, sometimes, when we try to accessorize our orientations and genders with labels. Like we are discussing the breed standard...well, FtMs are like this and CIS males are like that and poodles are to be clipped to show off this trait and bulldogs are to be presented this way so the judge...yada yada yada... I love me my FtMs. Not cuz they are girls or queers. But because they are men. Men who dont make me want to pay the check and leave the restaurant alone..... |
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I'm not sure I should even address this, however, the reason I used the term "two~spirited" was because I had been told by a Transman that He is two~spirited person. And, while He does have a portion of American Indian blood coursing through His veins, He also has Italian, Filipino and Hispanic bloodlines. So....while what I have experienced with this one Guy is Male, He claims His second spirit as well, and I accept that. |
CIS?
can someone please explain to me WTF Cis means?
Mommie said that it is being the gender you were born/appear to be uh...... WHAT?:seeingstars: so.... a Cis Man is a bio man? and a Cis Woman is a bio woman? really? am i getting this right? HELP!!!! |
I am not a native american. And I despise when capitalism eats up the Native Culture and only nourishes the whites. I fear for the individuals from both the Native Culture and the White Culture when they are insensitive to one another. I am appalled and saddened by how whites have desecrated and destroyed the land that they literally stole from the Native Americans.
In saying this (and yes it is all heart felt) I am also saddened when a member of the white culture tries to honor the traditions and spirituality of the Native Culture and gets slammed for not getting it "right". The reaction given to usage of the term "two spirited" is more racist and prejudicial than the intent behind the post about two spirits. I have spent my lifetime trying to be as sensitive as possible to people and living things around me. But it has to work both ways if its really going to work and leave a positive imprint. Sensitivity has to be given when genuine efforts are made and failed. In either direction. When its not given, and veiled (or unveiled) hostility is grouched out, it only serves to make the other defensive. And worse, any who witness it, also learn that any attempts that fail, will result in being attacked, so why bother to try? I myself loath when white females write books about native culture and spirituality and make thousands of dollars off it and give nothing to the culture they took it from. I refuse to buy the books. And I have brought my daughter up to see this as wrong, as well. And she has taught others to see this. And they have taught others...it is the web of communication, tightened by the spirituality of people who regardless of what they call it, are honoring the spirituality of others. tones in posts can put a stop to any learning.. as for two spirited folks, I actually would like to know more about it now that its been brought up that my understanding of it might be whitened and not be correct at all. So I am going to do my research..not because I was shamed or scolded into it, but because I can read the value of the post, regardless of the tone that was used. and I believe some FtM people might indeed see themselves as two spirited. But I will let others speak on that regard... |
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http://juliaserano.livejournal.com/14700.html |
I do understand that a good many FTM's only view themselves as having a male spirit, Myself included, but what I don't get is why can't an FTM view himself as being two-spirited? Who says that a transguy can't also have even just a small big of a female spirit inside of him?
I don't get that :blink: |
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