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If you know them personally and want to spead that around, go right ahead. :) |
Sorry, I didn't mean to derail. It was a bad example...regarding representation in mainstream media.
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I have had people say I am just a straight woman and that I want a man.
I have been an out Lesbian since 1984. I strap on. I love pussy. I have a girlfriend. What does it take to accepted as Femme? To have no one jealous of me who just says shit? What does Portia have to do? |
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I wonder what I'd be like today had I been socialized in a Butch/Femme environment? |
I certainly understand June's point about wanting stories from us, but why is a feminine appearing woman's status (whether femme or not) as lesbian/queer more often than not in doubt? She's been dating women since 1999, been married to a woman since 2008. Is anyone wondering whether the more androgynous Ellen is really a lesbian?
Anyway, here's a recent interview Portia de Rossi did http://www.advocate.com/article.aspx?id=106125 |
I guess I don't know what to say now.
I mean all we can do is say we are Femme. If someone wants to think we are just straight women then they are free to say whatever they want to say. A year or so ago someone I considered a really good friend said I was just a straight woman and implied I cheated on Cynthia with men. I am still speechless and very hurt. All we can do in response is just be ourselves. I do think it is important to note that when Femmes say "oh so and so is not really Femme or even Queer" it demeans all of us. It's like the ultimate insult for someone Femmes don't like. The ultimate cut. Be who I want you to be or with who I want you to be with or you are a straight woman. What answer is there for that? |
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Educate them. You will need to educate people since it's not in MSM and they won't understand otherwise if they are not clued in. It sucks to have to out yourself each time to educate them but unfortunately, it's a reality in society (it's a page from the trans community and sometimes, something we have to do; I haven't had to do this yet but have no qualms about doing it if the situation ever rises -- I'm already used to educating colleagues who should know but..). |
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That is Femme... combat boots and all.:eyebat: |
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Make sense? |
That discussion sparked me to start thinking a little more critically about how the Femme community impacts and is impacted by this same continuum of "being more homogenous/acceptable/feminine (and insert any number of things that mean "more than what you already are")".
How do we as Femmes impact the visibility of Female Butches? This question made me defensive, and I don't really know why. My gut reaction is I don't really care how I impact others' visibility, especially butches. So often femmes are identified by who we fuck vs. who we are. This question struck me as an extension of that stereotype. I think the phrasing made me feel like I should apologize if I do impact their visibility. Perhaps I'm just not sure what you mean? Do we, as Femmes, have a continuum in our own community where the hyper-feminine is more valid/valued? What does that look like to you when it's in action? I don't feel it as much as I used to in my immediate (R/T)community. I have felt it strongly in the past. It looks like my Hooters/Martha Stewart movie nightmare. It reinforces boring stereotypes and creates competition to be the fairest of them all. How does this continuum affect our visibility or does it? Whose visibility? Femmes? or the whole community? There was also some discussion around pronoun usage and several folks brought up what it might look/feel like to a Femme if she were "he'd" on a regular basis out in the world but also (and especially) in this community. Thoughts on this? I wouldn't like it. I'm having some thoughts on visibility and the celebration of movement toward each end of the spectrum for both Femmes and Butches. Particularly Im thinking about how there is something going on with Butches being celebrated as they move toward a more masculine presence and Femmes being celebrated if they maintain a more "hyper" Femme way of being. (Although I will say that I personally don't feel a huge push in our community to be more "valid" as Femmes by being "more" Femme) Im thinking about how all of these things might affect our visibility as Femmes and how much we do/should care if we are invisible to the outside world. Do you think it is important for people to see you as Femme? Do you feel seen as a Femme in this community? How do you think your experience as a Femme with invisibility is affected by the marginalization of Female Butches? It is important for me to be seen as femme. Femmes tend to be fierce, unique beings who grab femininity by the balls and never let go. So to speak. I'm proud to be one. I don't think my experience as a femme is affected by the marginalization of female butches, but my social circle is almost exclusively male identified butches. |
I hate hate hate the term Breeder. It makes me soooo angry, and it's just another way of othering.
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That negates so much about who we are! Fierce Femmes! |
Forgive me, I am tired today....
But if Butch is just something evolving into something else? and Femme can suddenly be straight if someone says so? Then why are we even here? We really don't exist at all if this is true. I know, I know.....:dontfeedmods: Just have been reading the threads from over the weekend, and I feel kind of empty right now. Will be back tomorrow, maybe the sun will be shining and I will feel more my usual :spider: self. |
Portia and Ellen are so adorable together and they really seem a bit private to me. I would absolutely hate to think that their relationship is anything but the real thing - I guess I do care on a personal level. I have just been really impressed with how they are managing. I think Ellen is really in a great position to "change hearts and minds" of mainstream America and I think she's doing a great job. I guess I read them both as pretty genuine and I am grateful to them both for being willing to play the role they play in American culture.
I remember talking to an guy friend of mine about a huge crush I had on a butch back before I figured it out. He said - of course you like the butch ones -that's because you're straight. What sucks is that I didn't understand myself or butches enough to question him. A good female friend of mine - whom I flirted with regularly - would say often to me, "you just think you're a lesbian because you haven't tried it. I thought I was until I tried it, and then I knew I wasn't." I bought that line for a long time. The most damaging thing about buying that line is that I felt like I could not id as a lesbian unless I had fucked a woman. I didn't feel legitimately capable of saying that I knew. If I had been butch or if I had been more androgynous, I don't think I would have gotten that feedback and I think other lesbians would have at least recognized me during that very ling period of time that I questioned myself. So I think being invisible to others kinda led me back into the closet every time I tried to come out or even come out to myself. There are days when I severely wish I had those years back, but i should have been more confident in my knowledge of myself at a younger age. I could have saved myself so much time if I hadn't sought so much advice from straight people. |
Well all of that certainly got things going! And my goodnes folks are quick to jump on someone in here. But yes I do mean Portia and not Anne Heche. That's another whole crazy can of worms and not for here at all.
But in any case, the point is that sometimes I read that we want MSM role models and will take them in any way we can get them. I don't agree and prefer to think of regular femmes who live an out loud life on a daily basis as the heroines of this story. But then when we start to discuss one 'star' or another folks tend to throw in the 'who cares...I'd rather talk amongst ourselves'. And so would I but also in the context of the MSM because in many ways that defines us in spite of ourselves and what we say here. It's that deconstruction that interests me. |
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I don't need any Main Stream to define who I am, hell I don't think that we will ever be evolved enough to allow women talk about having strap ons, slaves, and love orgasms giving them or getting them. So I am not understanding how you can say this??... I really can't.. Yanno I did not think there were Queer Police who had guidelines or timelines to how long you have to be in the in crowd to be allowed the gay card.... I don't feel that was ok, and very erasing to our newly hatched (recently out) femmes in this community |
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We are far to particular to "take them in any way we can get them." which was my point when I originally mentioned Portia Derossi. It was a side effect of mentioning our invisibility. In r/t and in the MSM. I'm pretty sure we're going to continue being our Femme selves whether or not a Femme in the Entertainment industry is out and proud. We're surrounded by every day role models here in this very community and I love that. |
No queer police here, to the contrary actually. Sorry I don't get that benefit of the doubt here on this all-inclusive and welcoming/loving femme thread. And as to the MSM 'validating us' if either LS or SF would read my post instead of yelling a me you would see that I agree with you. What I was trying to say is that the MSM portrayals are what reinforces alot of 'the other' as we move out into the real world and interact with folks not on this site.
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PW I was not being unwelcoming, nor was I yelling at you, I thought I had made it clear that I did not get your post. I did disagree with the way you worded Portia's queer status, I don't feel that is right. |
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They are fierce femmes :4femme: :D I've said this in another thread...while I don't think stars are the end-all-be-all in terms of representing the gay community, I believe they have some bit of responsibility to not act like assholes. I mean, they all make mistakes and do dumb things in the eye of the media, but is it really so smart to lambaste them when they use the wrong pronoun or say something not as evolved as we try to be? I'm really an advocate for education; esp for stars and media types. |
I get a little irked about movie stars or singers being representative of the LGBTQIA community, especially when so many of them have been sanitized by their agents as to be more "acceptable".
Look at Rachel Maddow. Perfectly fine Lesbian who was kinda "dolled up" when she got her tv show. Ellen? Same thing. Hollywood culture is (to me) generally vapid anyway so Im really not all that suprised when people make asshattish comments. Now, let Dorothy Allison make a "men with boobs" comment and I would be up her ass so quick it wouldn't be funny. Maybe its because I expect more from her because she has already shown herself to be an elevated thinker. Maybe its because I KNOW she identifies as a Femme. More thinking on that one. |
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So if we disagree with you we are unwelcoming and yelling? We have to agree with you to be welcoming? I personally was offended when you jumped in out of no where saying that someone who has dated women for several years is straight. Most of us have been called straight too because we don't look gay, or because someone wants our partners for themselves, can you see where it might be upsetting for you to use those same words, star or not? I bristle when someone suggests anyone queer is straight unless they have specific PROOF and even so, it is none of your or our business. Have you been on the site before under a different name? You seem pretty opinionated about this and us. |
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There isn't a training period for anything, just like there is no way to say what makes someone gay or not make sense? Can you share your Femme experience with us? please.. Thank you. |
I have been realizing today exactly how much I still defer internally to both masculinity and maleness. I then feel oppressed and resentful of both. I feel like if a guy or butch says something about how she/he/hy/etc would like for femmes or women to behave differently, I feel oppressed and resentful due specifically to the fact that I weigh their criticisms so heavily. And then, "quit criticizing femmes, quit oppressing femmes, you don't have the right to oppress us," is the loudest and clearest voice in my mind.
Because of this cacophony between my ears, I cannot tell how much of this is just inside me and how much is coming from without. It feels like it's from without, but the human brain is weird like that sometimes. The issue is still with myself. If I could somehow treat all genders and levels of masculinity or femininity with equal respect rather than feeling compelled to defer and then resenting the power I myself have handed to both masculinity and maleness, then I would have so much more clarity and peace within myself as a femme, as a woman, as a member of this community and as a member of the human race. It would feel so lovely if one day there were no part inside me that felt the compulsion to crawl just because some masculine or male person voiced a complaint or expectation. Then the choice would move more easily beyond compliance or defiance and into the realm of real respect and self-respect, real ability to hear and a real ability to respond to criticism, observations, complaints and requests from across the gender spectrum in a more reasoned and clear way. The thing is - I do not know how to unlearn this. I dont know how to remove that compliance/defiance button inside myself. Does anybody else experience this? Has anybody else successfully purged this or unlearned it or patched in some neutralizing attitudes or in any other way moved beyond this? If so, how? |
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So back to the original post and how I see myself as Femme. Several thoughts. I do find that since I "came out" as Femme after many years of being a Feminine Lesbian who dated mostly jocks and Butches who did not really claim Femme, I dress more femininely. Or maybe I feel like I am safe to dress and act in a more feminine manner when I am with a Butch? I don't know. I don't think anyone would know I am even Queer at all, unless I am with a Butch. It used to bother me, now I really don't care. As for impacting Female IDd Butches....I wonder if when people seem them with us, they are more likely to assume they are men? At a glance do they see boy/girl? Though, it seems that other Femmes are the main ones in real time who seem to have a problem calling Cynthia and Deb and other female idd Butches "she". I am not sure how we can help this, other than continuing to educate who we can. |
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Not sure where to start to introduce my femmeness to the rest of you on this thread. Let's see. Out as a femme for about 3 decades (although I didn't have the language for it back then) starting in a small town in GA where there were lots of butches (on a military base) and not so many visible femmes. Moved to DC--NO FEMMES TO BE FOUND, and not so many butches either. Been in NYC for about 20 years and landed first at the Lesbian Herstory Archives where the founders--Joan Nestle and Deb Edel--really introduced me to BF herstory and I began to lean into my own femme identity. My first BF sexual experience was with a butch who notched her belt on newly minted femmes, straight women exploring sexuality to be more to the point. At the time that worked for me too as I was interested in another butch but had no sexual experience and didn't want to try it out first with someone that I was way more than a little bit hot for. And, I had one relationship that ended when the butch figured hy was more attracted to elusive and challenging straight women than to femmes. Devestated at the time but in retrospect a great learning for me. I look very straight on first glance, but as you wrote in an earlier post here, it doesn't take 5 minutes in a conversation to figure out that I'm femme. In some sense the fact that in my earlier life I 'could pass' helped me to come out. I was tired of the heteronormative assumptions by everyone, including a very dyke older boss at the time. I have a son who I raised alone (he's 33 now) and in addition to my appearance that sealed the straight assumption since it was long before butches and femmes had babies of their own accord. I work in a field dominated by straight men and I know that I've fully swallowed my femme self because none of them try to hit on me anymore! Enough rambling for now, but happy to say more as we get to know each other here. |
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I kind of have the opposite thing going on, if a man or someone I perceive as male says something about how I should act I laugh, if a woman does I take it to heart way too much. I wonder if maybe it's how we grew up? our childhoods? Maybe because my Mom died when I was so young, I yearn for female approval and am more freaked out when I don't get it? |
As for passing as straight....
I have always, just once, wanted to get the nod from another queer person. You know, like Butches and women who "look" more stereotypically gay do. Maybe at the reunion, we can give each other the nod? |
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Are you looking to explore how Femme Top energy isn’t in masculine or Daddy form within someone's kink or how its feminine energy is everyday life? I see the two as distinctly different, yet similar and often related. Let's see if I can expand... within BDSM and the dynamics of mine and Jess' relationship, if I am in Top space, its under the direction of my Syr and is feminine in nature. I would be Ma'am. I do have a masculine Daddy Top energy that is never present with my Syr. In my relationships/interludes before Jess, this wasn't always the case. I can say that within Top headspace, I am more comfortable in the masculine. In my day-to-day world, my Femme Top energy is present. Most times, it just takes the form of being a more-than-capable business person and doing my job of running the company I work for... sometimes it is present in more of a "Mean Mommy" way in that in my position of authority, I often have to temper constructive criticism with the natural nurturer/caretaker I am. In our bedroom, my Femme Top energy is never present. Again, pre-Jess, I was quite comfortable being either fucker or fuckee. I have never felt "less than" in celebrating and owning the strength I find in being a Femme or in being female; although, I have had many experiences of people (of any ID/orientation) try to impose such upon me. I'm rather quick to remind them of just whom they are dealing with - and on my worst of days, it’s a force to be reckoned with. On my best days, one might wanna pack a lunch. Quote:
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I'm incredibly perplexed by this... |
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Awesome that you know all those people!! Thanks for sharing, we have to agree to disagree, but I am all about supporting the people who are just out, you see I have a daughter who is out and supporting her is my responsibility as a Mom and as a Queer.. |
I'll rephrase to say that I was always way out before I moved to NYC and should have more aptly described the experience with the femmes and butches there as my first community experience with butch and femme. Sometimes I don't write very clearly. Sorry.
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I know that for ME, getting to know the vast array of femmes that I have, has helped me evolve (and continue to evolve) into the femme that I am... one that is finally comfortable in my own skin. When I came out at 23, my social circle was very limited to my local gay community... where the butch-femme community was not present at all. It wasn't until I was in my late 20s and started meeting folks from all over (thanks to the wonderful internet), that I actually started embracing & claiming being femme... instead of just being "the girlie girl".
Luckily over the last 15 years, I've met some amazing femmes, that showed me that we come in all shapes and sizes, that we are more than what we look like, more than who we fuck & how we fuck, and we write our own story. If it weren't for those people, embracing the "newly femme", I wouldn't be who I am today. So THANK YOU for leading by example, for showing the rest of the world that femme is whatever, whoever and however we claim it to be for ourselves! |
Years before i figured out i was gay, i was attracted to butches. i didn't discover the b-f community until i came online. There is no b-f community at all here in my SC. Once i started spending time online, i figured out i was femme. When i called myself that to a friend here, she blew it off and said, "whatever". Since that time, i've usually felt a little defensive of my femme-ness, and unsure of it at times too. i have never been what i perceive to be "high" femme...i don't wear make-up or skirts on a daily basis, my nails haven't been properly done in years, i am not a fashion-conscious girl at all.
i've had to make that clear to more than one butch who was more attracted to our "norm" of what a femme is. i have noticed that in a chat room, many butches will pay more attention to the 'high' femmes, but it's usually in a overtly flirty way, which i'm fine missing out on, personally. There is one particular femme online that, when i see her pictures, i automatically think, "yeah, i'll never be as femme as her". Then logic kicks in and i start thinking about how much time, energy and money she must expend to maintain that look.... i just don't have it in me! i've had this internal struggle for many years, and not just with my femme-ness. i often say that my insides don't match my outsides. Outside, i look like a 40-something generic, overweight, average soccer mom. i blend in to society-at-large well (except for my socks, which i think is as comfortable as i'll ever be outwardly expressing my individuality). Inside, i am a free-flowing hippie. i am thinner, younger and wear hippie-ish skirts. i am much less prudish, mainstream and much more "free". :hippie: |
I think it is very important to be there as a source of help for people just coming out. I wish I had had someone I looked up to in the community back in the early 80's to help me along.
One of the main reasons I participate on this website is to help provide a place for Femmes and Butches who have no actual community in their areas to have resources to find friends and ask questions. Outside of really large cities many of us never saw or knew another Femmes till we found community on the Internet. Yes, I have wonderful Femme friends in real time now, and I am so thankful for them and for those who try to reach out to the newly out and the youth among us. Thank you Medusa for this thread and for this website! You actually were one of the Femmes I met at my very first Butch-Femme function and I will never forget that. |
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Them are just props honey, make up, glitter, hair iron, blah! Femme is who we are inside, and our gender nothing to do with the smoke and mirrors! Though I will tell you, with 5 kids if I had to drive a mini van ever, I would of screamed bloody murder, they weren't macho enough for me! ha!:rolleyes: |
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I remember someone saw an old avatar of me in a feather boa. It was taken when I had on a ton of makeup, false eyelashes and was dressed up for a Slut Night. She expected that I always dressed like that...she actually acted dissapointed when she met me and I did not have on make up and had on yoga pants and a t shirt. :) The High/Low Femme freaks me out. I think it puts pressure on us to dress or act a certain way, when we should just be ourselves. |
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