As one that was cheated on, the pain of betrayal is so great when it all ruptures and trust me, it ruptures, sooner or later; is so great, that I struggle with it still. It wounds to the core.

When children are involved, the pain is even greater.

Sharing my own experience is not a judgment.

I lived it during my 19 years with her.

I am really struggling with this. I am so happy Starbuck that you were able to find love in your new girlfriend - but a part (okay a huge part) of me cannot understand the cheating and betrayal you are doing to a man who is committed to you. I would say the same thing to someone on this board who was cheating on their partner.

It's cheating. Bottom line, it is cheating. These men who you say are honorable men and love you - They deserve the same respect. I mean you say with such sureness, he would never cheat on you, because you are married. How does this not break your heart? Every time you touch your girlfriend, how does this act of cheating, not break your heart?

And in front of these two men, you carry on a charade.

The only thing which can come out of this is HURT. One day they will find out, and the hurt which will be felt will be great, and you will be the bearer of this hurt.

I am sorry if I have offended... You brought your relationship(s) to the forefront with an openness and in doing so, you are giving us an opportunity to respond. I am just sad by this. Nobody deserves to be betrayed.

Why can't you just be honest and leave them? Love for another and take the risk that loving takes. Or try and work out an open relationship - something, that involves some form of honesty.

Sorry... This whole thing really makes me very sad for those men.

Julie

Cheating is selfish, cowardly, and cruel - no matter what the circumstances are.

Hi Starbuck. My apologies for a drive by post. It was very brave of you to share such a personal secret with us.

The first Lesbian love of my life was a butch cop. Repeatidly, she would tell me, the prisons are full of people because of RAGE. And after reading your story, that is what came to my mind. Betrayals of trust push people over the edge. Please be careful. Certainly, it's your life to live. I'd venture to say almost all of us know how powerful the attraction between two women can be. Maybe try professional (neutral) counseling to help sort this out.

I truely wish you well.

I also agree it was very brave of you to share. And it's certainly your choice.

I too fell in love with a woman when I was married. She lived in a different city, but we had a sometimes physical and a very much emotional affair for over a year. Ultimately, it ended because I didn't want to hurt my husband, who was and is a good man and father. She had a partner with whom she was having problems, and I didn't want to be an escape. Both of us had to treat our partners with honor before getting involved with anyone else. That, to me, was keeping my vow.

But ask yourself this: if you know your husband's ex-wife cheated on him and destroyed him emotionally, how do you justify doing the same? Because it will come out in the wash, end two marriages, and hit like a sucker punch to two men. If you or your gf have minor children, they will be hurt-badly. It might seem like a foolproof arrangement, but divorce court is full of husbands who weren't quite as chumpy as their wives thought they were. And by her actions, your gf is showing that she can and will cheat.

I can't sit and judge because I have been there. But when it does blow up, it has the potential to be financially and emotionally devastating to at least four people.

I was excited to see this thread yesterday, but ultimately had to walk away from the computer without posting to avoid saying something that would get me moderated. I'm very happy to see that I'm not the only one who isn't so much concerned with "not judging" people who are lying and cheating and seem proud of it.

I am bisexual, and I've spent my entire adult life fighting an uphill battle against negative stereotypes about bisexual people. Bisexuals can't be trusted, they're liars, they'll cheat on you, they're not capable of being faithful. And now, here's a thread about bisexuality, in which all of these negative stereotypes are being put on display as if it were perfectly normal, acceptable behavior.

Starbuck, others here may be concerned with not judging you, but I'm not one of those people. I am judging you. Lying and cheating are not okay. What you're both doing to your husbands is not okay. Liars lie, cheaters cheat, and the whole concept of the two of you being "faithful" while cheating on your respective husbands is laughable. I certainly don't appreciate the attempt to justify lying and cheating because there's bisexuality involved. Bisexual people are perfectly capable of monogamy, just like straight and gay people are. Being bisexual doesn't make cheating okay.

I agree, "Bisexual people are perfectly capable of monogamy..." I cannot say in all truthfullness that I agree with not being truthful with your parnter/s. I have been very hurt by cheating and I have cheated in my life time. When I was in my early adulthood I cheated on my girlfriend. It was not a daliance. The "other woman" fell in love with me. I felt like crap. I was hurting two very wonderful women. In the end I lost my partner, her love and respect she once held for me. Eventually she married one of my brothers. (Karma) The "other woman" went on to find a partner that loved her and only her.

I am not saying having more than one sexual, and/or romantic interest is wrong. If you are all legal adults and honest with everyone involved it is your choice how all of you lead your life. If not, you will eventually have to deal with the choice of your actions. And unfortunately, even the ones that did not willingly, knowningly make the choice, they too will have no choice but to live with the consequences of your actions.

You make a good point here. I'm curious about something. Let's hold everything else constant but change just one significant factor.

There are still two women involved in a relationship but one of the women is cheating on her partner with a man. Her partner doesn't know this is going on. The partner who is cheating posts her story here. Are people still going to praise her for her bravery and courage to be herself? Or would it suddenly not be okay because the victim here is another woman?

If people still would not have a problem with it, is there ANYTHING that someone could do in a relationship (outside of outright violence which, I presume, we still can judge harshly) that would cause people to say "that's not okay". If, on the other hand, someone would judge the woman who cheats on her wife with a man, why is it that we cannot judge cheating on her husband with a woman?

Cheers
Aj

Yanno... This tends to get confusing had I "called out" Starbucks on her cheating, lying, deceit, alll the obvious things fucked up that she's doing to her kid, friend, husband, lover their kids somewhere someone somehow would of viewed it as big bully Snow wagging her finger at poor Star.

She's not seeing it like we do (Star) she's happy with her life, sex, lies because she gets her cake and she gets to eat seconds too.

She doesn't get she's got straight bennies, gets to say she's bi-lesbian-queer when she can or she's here. It's not going to change she's clear on that, here and in pm.

So what else is one gonna do? Bi-sexuals aren't cheaters, deceivers, sneaky unsafe people yet once in a blue moon someone will come across these boards who since she joined has talked about the married lover.

I guess we can say she's not but to her, in her head she is and none of us is gonna be able to sway het from that.

At that point I just shrug and an like whatever cause I was like :|..

So, I presume, that you consider homosexuality to be about sex as well as heterosexuality? If not, may I ask by what possible logic you can use to say that bisexuality is about sex (since, according to you, that is why it's called sex) while neither hetero- nor homosexuality are about sex? Or do you concede as accurate the right-wing, anti-gay meme that anything that is *not* heterosexuality is about nothing more than sex?

cheers
Aj

I have been having this same conversation with my gf who identifies as a soft butch. I am bi and have always been with both men and women sexually. The strange thing is that I never did develop feeling for another woman outside of being friends. It was purely sexual. I was married to a man for several years and have two small children and not once during my marriage did I have the urge to be with women. I was happy and he satisfied me. Once we divorced I was free to be with women again which I did, but again, there was no emotional attachment. Then I met my gf. She's AMAZING! I fell for her hard and fast. It was like nothing I had ever felt before. I had never loved a man like I love her. Perhaps before when I was with women I never felt an emotional attachment because they were all femmes and my gf is very much butch. I don't know. All I know is that she has a VERY hard time dealing with the fact that I'm bi. She is very insecure about it and always says that she fears that she's not going to be enough for me. I can't fix her insecurities, all I can do is try to make sure she knows that I love her and want to be with only her. But back to the original question, I do identify as bi and although before it was purely for sexual reasons, it isn't any longer. <3 LML <3

When someone posts something as charged as what Starbuck did people will naturally be moved. Her nearly gleeful portrayal of her powder keg existence is almost painful to read. We have all experienced betrayal on some level, perhaps even been the one to betray so it is difficult to remain objective. Also considering the stigma that seems to still be associated with bisexuality it was with a distinct lack of forethought that Starbuck chose to post her story in a thread entitled so what does bisexuality mean to you. And I also believe she vastly misjudged the mood of her audience.

When someone wants to respond to a post where they find the behavior of the poster unacceptable there are really only two ways to go, there will be degrees of variance within the responses but still only two ways to go. You either want to make your moral outrage clear or you want to help the person understand where their actions will ultimately lead. Either is perfectly acceptable and not at all attached to the gender of the people involved.

You can be outraged because of what Starbuck is doing to others. You may understand the pain and damage she is and will cause from a place of experience. In which case your response will naturally come from that understanding. You can share your disgust as well as your extreme displeasure at the way she is adding to the stereotype of the cheating greedy bisexual. And it is certainly an understandable position. However, I don’t believe to choose another less judgmental approach means one does not understand the severity of what she is doing. Nor does it have to mean you believe that it is okay to do what she is doing. Or that it is okay to do it because it is men who are being cheated on.

I think people stop listening when they feel judged and attacked. And it is not necessary to care about this. It is perfectly acceptable to judge and to share your moral outrage. Let me put a great degree of emphasis on that. Perfectly acceptable indeed. But I also think it is okay to try to reach the person by keeping the lines of communication open. Perhaps you will be responsible for helping someone achieve that "ahah" moment by remaining compassionate and not beating the person over the head with your moral outrage. Either way is okay. But I don’t think one’s choice has to be based on what is the gender of the person being cuckolded

Fundamentally I agree with you.

But there can be other circumstances that make choices harder and make your statement seem flippant and short sighted.

I will use my own story as an example. Feel free to judge it how you see fit, I say this knowing that it is impossible to really understand all of the complexities of anyone's relationships or reality.

I have always known I was attracted to women, but have not ever been in a relationship with one. I fell in love with a man over 20 years ago and we have been together ever since. Despite my attraction to women, I did not do anything about it because I was in a committed relationship. I have been married to that same man and was faithful to that man for over 20 years. I say 'was' because I made a choice a few months ago that I both do and do not regret. I did not tell my husband. I am currently engaged in an emotional affair. I did not tell my husband, nor do I intend to. The latter is a bigger betrayal in my opinion, but we will stick with the original premise for now.

I will illustrate the points that lead me to my decision:

Point 1: A little over two years ago my husband (who is 14 years older than me) was diagnosed with prostate cancer. The emotional and physical toll of the diagnosis and treatment ended our sex life for 2 years and after 2 years of absolutely no physical contact, what sex life returned was an occasional desire on his part for me to perform a particular act that I willingly do, but no desire on his part to reciprocate or even show desire toward me at all. I have been often brutally honest with him about my feelings and desires, I have begged, gotten angry, thrown myself at him, tried to show him what I want, etc. Nothing has changed other than he now avoids the subject altogether.

Is this indicative of a problem in our marriage? Yes. Is it worth leaving 20 years of history with a man that I love (regardless of my sexual preference)? In my opinion, no.


Point 2:The statistics and realities with prostate cancer treatment, the incidence of cancer recurrence, his other very real and serious illness, and just the changes in sexual desire and function in men as they age, predict that sexual issues we have are not likely to change and further treatment for this or another very serious illness he has will be needed.

I am the breadwinner of the family. At this point I pay all of the bills and his medical insurance is through my job (he is self employed). I will not have him think for even ONE MINUTE that he will not be able to pay for his current or any future treatment or that he will be alone if he is to fall seriously ill again. As long as he will have me I will be by his side to his or my last breath. Dramatic, but reality.

Point 3: One option is to tell him that I want to stay married to him, but am sexually attracted to women and ask his "permission" to have another relationship with a woman. Someone asked me once how I would feel if he gave his "blessings" to this type of arrangement. I said I would be thrilled, but I have known him 20 years and the likelihood of that is slim, but the risk of him looking at me and thinking that I had lived 20 years of a lie and I had never been attracted to him or loved him is too great. I will not have him think that ever, because it is not true.

Point 4: Another option is to remain faithful in an essentially sexless marriage with promise of sex returning to even what it was before prostate cancer. A lot of women end up leaving their husbands after prostate cancer treatment. The emotional toll is devastating and then when your partner decides he is ok with no sex life regardless of what your desire are, it gets worse. I am not leaving. So remaining faithful in a sexless marriage is what I chose for 2 years. We do not have children, only each other. I could not throw myself into my kids lives to try to avoid the loneliness. What it did was made me insane and ultimately when given the chance I cheated. I offer no excuses. I made the decision. The sex was great the aftermath was, probably deservedly, a fucking nightmare.

From all of this I summarize:

Is he perfect? No.
I am perfect? Not even close.
Do I love him? Yes, totally and completely.
Can I live without physical contact with another person? No. And if I am going to be with someone else I choose to be with the gender I am physically attracted to.
Is absolving myself of guilt worth the emotional pain and financial impact it would inflict on him? No.

Prior to all of this I would have never thought there was room in my heart for anyone other than my husband, recent events have called that into question.

I do not know where I am going from here. I do not have any excuses or answers. What I did and am doing is wrong, but I am not sure nailing myself to the cross and denying my needs is right either.

Anastasia I am sorry that your husband is and has been ill. I can see how that is a dissatisfactory situation.

However. I stand by my original statement. Cheating, regardless of the circumstances, is selfish, is cowardly, is cruel.

Unsatisfactory. Interesting choice of words.

I truly hope you never have to live through about this type of "unsatisfactory" situation.

You know absolutely nothing about my situation. Just saying.

And here I am, not cheating.

My very measured response has zero to do with the sex or gender of anyone involved. I personally can not help but identify with the two husbands involved (unknowingly so).

I have never been unfaithful in any relationship I have had. My ex, was.

If I had gone into that relationship and we had both agreed to have some sort of "open" relationship, then to me, that would not be cheating. Our relationship was, however, pledged to be monogamous.

Different picture. Different expectations. Different outcome once I discovered the betrayal.

That there are children involved in both families makes it even more difficult to stand by and say nothing.

When we put our lives out there for this community to read, we/I run the risk of negative feedback. We have human reactions and feelings.

I try very hard to not be reactive in my posts. I am aware I am failing to be
objective in this instance. It is the best I can do given the digression from the original topic.

Morality is a difficult thing to discuss really. Personal morality is by definition a personal choice. However, the reality is that if you believe yourself to be an ethical person then your response to a situation will be you doing the right or moral thing. Therefore anyone else confronted with the same situation would invariably make the same choice. To claim to not make the rules or to define morality for anyone else is just a way of not accepting this responsibility.

If it is okay for you to cheat, lie, steal or whatever under a certain set of circumstances then it is okay for the other to do the same under the same conditions. To me the measure of morality is that it is impartial.

If it is a logical right thinking choice for you in a situation, then in the same situation it is the logical right thinking choice for other reasonable people as well. Morality should be defined impartially.

The other necessary component for personal morality is equal respect for the humanity of all persons. Not equal respect for everyone in everyway. Just equal respect for the humanity of all.

The above in red is what I was driving at when I asked my question about what role the gender of the participants played in things. To me, if this situation is acceptable such that we should not judge things in this instance then we should not be in the least bit disturbed *regardless* of the configuration of the parties.

If it's okay for Barb to cheat on Mike with Mary, then it must also be okay for Mike to cheat on Barb with Julie or, for that matter, for Barb to cheat on Mary with Stan. Once we have decided that this is entirely unremarkable behavior, then any limits we choose to put on this must be *entirely* arbitrary. We should not endorse any behavior or principle--most especially our own--unless we are willing to have that behavior or principle become universal. If we do endorse some behavior or principle, particularly one that has manifest potential to cause harm to others, for ourselves then by what logic do we deny it to others?

Cheers
Aj

I think your whole post is very important to understand and to digest. I especially wanted to emphasize the part in red. That's what I was aiming for but I missed the mark. Thank you.

I'm angrier than I realized.
 

Thank you, Miss Tick. Beautifully written and articulated in a non-judgemental manner.

Having been the partner that was cheated on, I have zero tolerance for cheating.

Having been the partner who was "the meal ticket" that was used for my money, I have no respect for those who take financial advantage of others either.

To be clear, if there is honesty in the relationship, then I have no issue. In my view, any set or group of partners can make whatever arrangement works for them with regard to open or closed relationship, or who supports whom....and I have no issue.

But there has to be honesty and openness about what's going on.

I don't have an issue with Starbuck, or anyone else, being bisexual or having multiple partners, even if married or in a committed relationship...as long as that has been shared openly and agreed to.

What bothers me is that Starbuck and her lover are both decieving their partners, and Starbuck makes no bones about staying with her husband for financial security (and because she enjoys some of the activities they share), but that his sexual desire for her is a burden. To me, she is using her husband and lying to him....and that bothers me a lot, especially when coupled with her gleeful confidence that he would never cheat, and her profile statements about loving God and going to church. For me, there's a huge disconnect....and I doubt that her husband would take the same view of the situation that she apparently does.

Anastasia....I feel for you. I truly do. I know how hard it is to be in a sexless marriage with someone you care about. I endured 2 years of that in my first marriage, and it's soul killing stuff.

I do have to say, though, that I still don't agree with the deception (and I don't think you do either or you wouldn't be in such pain about it). Can you not be honest with him about what you have and do feel for him, assure him that you will stay married and continue to provide the medical insurance he needs, and redefine your relationship going forward to allow you to get what you need and want?

Only you can answer that, of course....but to me it's a course worth pursuing, for your own emotional well-being as well as his.

I know that taking the ethical route is hard. I'm doing it now in a different circumstance and struggling to "do the right thing." I still think it's worth doing.

Would you mind terribly if I linked to this in the Breaking the Spell thread? What you say here is the kind of meme I want being batted around in that thread.

Cheers
Aj

If Caroline loses her sex drive (because she was depressed, because she had had a hysterectomy, because because because) and Jonathan decides to cheat on her (With Judith or Samuel or Blake) because his sexual needs are not being met - I certainly hope that everybody who thinks I am mean today because I say there is no set of circumstances that justifies cheating remembers to dote on Jonathan and be understanding.

No, of course I certainly wouldn't mind at all. Help yourself. That's quite flattering coming from you. Thanks.

I once met a couple (butch & femme together for 20 years) who were best
of friends, both married to husbands who were also best friends.
Apparently ,they realized their attraction for each other while the husbands
were away.
They allowed a few weeks for the whole thing to sink in and then told their
husbands and teenage kids.
It's called integrity and I believe the way they handled it, allowed them to
stay together for 20 years
My bet is they are still together.

And that is how things should go down. Kudos to people who live honestly and unapologetically. :)

Really? What BFP are you reading? On the BFP I'm reading, people try to change each other's thoughts and views all the damn time.

You know, Strappie, if I didn't know any better I'd have sworn you were trying to Moderate me! (Actually, I thought you were. I pm'd someone to ask if you are a Moderator all of a sudden.)

(and, p/s - when someone says "what you said is flippant and short-sighted! and here is why!" they absolutely -are- trying to change my views.)

One question because I am like up in arms over this, why do people even care if someone is cheating or what others perceive as cheating? It is their life not yours so why be bothered with it?

I may get alot of flaming for this but I just wanted to put it out there as a thought to things.

Anyone else wanting to get back on topic? I sure am.

I am bisexual. I figured out that I was bisexual in my early 20's, but I didn't actually have a romantic or sexual relationship with another woman until quite a bit later. In the years between, I made out with straight girls at party and got teased mercilessly by an acquaintance about being "bi in theory" because he'd never actually seen me with another woman. When I finally did start dating and having sex with other women, it was almost always as the bi girl in a threesome with a heterosexual couple. The lesbians I did manage to meet at the time wanted nothing at all to do with a bisexual woman, and I didn't know any other bisexuals.

I didn't actually have a serious, committed, monogamous relationship with another woman until I moved to Oregon and met my wife. It was such a revelation to finally meet a woman who I was attracted to who was also attracted to me and didn't think that bisexual women are all just confused, selfish disease vectors. We've been happily together and monogamous for five years, with no end in sight. I can say with confidence that I would never, ever cheat on her. If something ever did happen that resulted in one of us being unable or unwilling to fulfill the other's sexual needs, we'd discuss it and work out a resolution we both could live with (like staying together but opening up the relationship).

Since meeting my wife, I've heard a lot of things from friends and family. I've been told that it's great that I've finally "admitted" that I'm really a lesbian (I'm not and I haven't). A few people have been adamant that I *can't* be bisexual forever, I have to "pick one." Quite a few have assumed that we must be polyamorous because if I'm still bisexual then that means I have to have a partner of each gender at all times. I also get people giving me a sympathetic look and telling me that they were bisexual, too, before they finally came all the way out of the closet and admitted they were really a lesbian.

What I always tell these people is that just like other sexual orientations, I was born this way. I didn't choose to be bisexual and I can't choose to stop being bisexual. I was bisexual when I was 12 years old and playing with Barbies. I was bisexual when I was a sexually aware but inexperienced teenager. I was bisexual when I was exclusively dating men. Now that I'm committed and monogamous, I'm still bisexual. When I'm 100 years old and no longer physically capable of having sex, I'll still be bisexual.

If I had to pick a number, I'd say I'm a Kinsey 4. I am very sexually attracted to men but never really made deep emotional connections with the men I dated and had sex with. I am both sexually and emotionally attracted to women, which is the only difference that keeps me from placing myself in the exact center of the scale.

Indeed....

It's totally irrational and I know that now, but I really believed for a long time that everybody is bisexual. I got over it a few years ago, but there you have it.

Now the truth: I am more sexually attracted to men than I am to women. However, I am more emotionally attracted to women than I am to men. So it's complicated. It's really complicated.

I have slept with more women than men. Not a tonne more, but more. I haven't had a "relationship" with a man since I was in freaking HIGHSCHOOL, but I clearly have slept with them since then. Since adulthood all of my "steadies" have been women. Probably I'm better at having actual relationships with women than with men because I just in general find women better company. Or possibly it's just turned out that way because I know way more women than I know men.

I would never cheat. That's not to say I'm perfect - I'm not. Do I think dirty thoughts about people other than my spouse? You're damn right I do! I don't think that's bad or abnormal so long as I never -do- anything about it - and of course I wouldn't.

(By the way: I irrationally for no particular reason hate the word "pansexual". (Possibly because it has the word pan in it and I don't find that sexy at all.) I prefer the word bisexual because average people freaking know what it means, so why complicate things by not speaking in a language that people around you can understand?)

Been there, done that. In fact, my first real girlfriend was SUPER mean about the whole thing. I can't believe I stayed with that jerkface for nearly 2 years. (Okay, maybe I can. Sometimes I think I stuck it out to prove a point.)

Okay now I am seriously all kittens and puppies about you and your wife. I'm -this- close to demanding a set of commemorative spoons. (I like happy people.)

Which I happen to think is the grown-up approach to that sort of situation.

I used to get that a lot from people who I was acquainted with (like, ran with the same circle of friends and went to the same parties but nothing more than that) if they saw me with a man. But nobody who actually knew me well has ever pulled that crap, thankfully. I think it would have really hurt me.

There are ways I agree with you... kind of.

Laws are impartial. The legal thing to do in any given situation is black and white. Stealing for example is illegal... there is no difference in terms of the law that what you are doing is legal or illegal. A murderer is as much operating outside the law as someone who shoplifts. It is merely the level of punishment that will differ. Both a murderer and someone who steals is operating outside the law. What may be legal behavior may not be moral. What is moral behavior is always legal.

Ethical or moral behavior, on the other hand is far more blurred and far LESS black and white. What may be legal behavior may not (and sometimes IS not) ethical or moral behavior. Ethical/Moral behavior is behavior that we would want to be above and beyond legal behavior. For our society for some it is based on the Golden Rule. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you... or even higher, place the needs and concerns of others above your own. This can be open to interpretation. In fact, sometimes two different can come to different solutions based on one's moral universe or moral compass.

Sorry... you have a point... I was reading the thread post by post... sorry for any derail...