Dylan and HSIN,
thanks for the support.

i am not sure how i managed to offend anyone. i was just speaking of my experience.

it's not that i don't care about the community, i just don't buy in to all the PC crap. i could say the cow is black and someone gets offended. :sarcasmalert:

it's almost like i have more trouble with the LRGBLT community than anyone else, because of the collective chip on the shoulder, and people are quick to be offended. almost looking for a fight:fastdraq:

i'm not a fighter, i am a survivor, and it is ALH's right and "Priviledge" to not to agree or like me. (that is the type of thing that i don't give a rats ass about)

@

I'm numbering, because I'm on my first cup o' coffee...not because I'm being short.

1. You've said this before, and I'll say the same thing back. I have no idea what your trans politics are besides what you post on these sites. I have respect for your posts as well; however, again, we don't know each other from anywhere else but these posts.

2. No where in Chef's post does he say anything about 'screw those people'. In fact, he very clearly stated how he stands up for everyone in the GLBTQ community.

So, what's the problem? Because he said, "People are going to think what people want to think, and I don't give a rat's ass"?

3. Just because someone's an ally, it doesn't mean they're not part of the oppressing group. And honestly, self-professed allies are quite problematic anyways. As part of the 'oppressing' group, One is an oppressor. Self-professed allies are the worst, because usually they're looking for a big thank you without actually doing any work. They want a big pat on the back for 'being there'. I don't trust anyone who names themselves an 'ally'...because usually they're also the first ones to say something offensive and get mad when you call them on it...and then remind you what a big 'ally' they are. No, the trans community doesn't 'owe' anyone else a thank you.

4. I just don't see the self-absorption you see in Chef's post, and that's cool. People read things differently.

5. Telling me not to 'forget my roots' is telling me what to do. First off, you don't even know 'my roots'. And what exactly do you mean by that? What do you assume my roots are? That seems a pretty arrogant thing to say, no?

Or how about the history lesson on 'The Trans Movement'? The arrogance of that statement, and your continued idea that Second Wavers 'started The Trans Movement', and your continued 'correcting' of trans history is quite bothersome. Perhaps, YOU should 'look it up' when exactly the Trans Movement started and by whom. Because it didn't start in the 60s. It started long before that...it blew up in the 60s and 70s as did EVERY movement...and in part BECAUSE of the animosity from the Second Wave community (Janice Raymond, Mary Daly, etc)

Telling me whom I need to thank is telling me what to do.
I don't owe cis people anymore of a thank you than I owe straight people or rich people. How about I tell you to thank men for all they've done to *help* you and 'remember your place'?

Have you thanked a trans person lately for Stonewall? For starting so much shit in the 60s?

Trans people don't owe their oppressors a big hearty kiss on the cheek. And if self-professed 'allies' think they need a thank you, they're in it for the wrong reasons. P.S. I don't owe Second Wavers a big ol' kiss on the cheek either. Second Wavers weren't 'questioning gender' to 'help' trans people...they were questioning politics and gender for THEIR OWN purposes. And really? You think transpeople weren't 'questioning' gender before the Second Wave came along? Seriously? That's quite an arrogant statement, no?

This 'community' (not site specific) is NOT friendly towards one another. We were lumped together out of sexual 'deviancy'...not out of love and camaraderie and mutual support. I don't owe the lesbians or the gays or the bisexuals anymore thanks than you 'owe' transpeople. And that's all aside from the fact that the GLBQ has (throughout history) tossed the Ts aside, co-opted the history, thrown Ts under the bus, screwed the Ts through legislative processes (ENDA anyone?)...and now you're telling transpeople to *thank* those people? Seriously?


Seriously,
Dylan

The only thing i pass for is a butch dyke and many times throughout the day since i work on the phone i get called sir more times than i can count and i dont even correct anyone......it used to be tiresome and now i just find it amusing....

Hi Andy!

I think people who live in different parts of the country don't know that in the South there are no public funds for meetings, surgeries any of that like there is in California. No one went before except Nick, we are kind of in a free fall making our own way and it works for us.

Also, there does seem to be a divide between some Butches and some Transguys. I would love to see us draw together as a global community like we have in Nashville! :)

We get along and hang out and it's no big deal and no one gives a rats ass who is trans and who is not and who passes and who does not as long as we try to be sensitive to what pronouns people prefer and so forth.

Before you transitioned you got zero support as Butch from the LBGQT etc community, same as I get zero support as Femme. That's how it is here. So it is difficult to care about what they think now. Hell, I have a hard time and I am a Lesbian.

I don't think what you said was offensive at all, so please don't think that we all are always ready for a fight. We are not going to all agree, but roll with it. It is important that we have these conversations and it is so great to have you here!

I pass as straight and for the most part, I wish I didn't...but not enough to not be myself.

I think it depends on what you are passing as, as to whether or not there is any privilege to that. For years and years, I passed as a gay male, before my white hair started coming in; I didn't feel terribly privileged.

Great point!

I pass as a Sunday School teacher and I find very little priviledge in that either.

I have really been thinking about this.

I guess for me, when someone says they don't care about who knows if they are trans, it does not means that they don't care about the struggles of other people. It means that they do their own thing. I see that as healthy, not selfish.

I admire and respect you AtLast, but is there something I am missing? Should Transpeople who have hated themselves their entire lives and known something was wrong and are finally becoming who they knew they always were supposed to be, announce their gender? Are they supposed to feel bad for passing?

Especially in a part of the country with pretty much ZERO support from community. The Gay and Lesbian community in Nashville does not even support Butches and Femmes, much less Transpeople.

Also,

When someone new comes on the website it would be great if we could not immediately assume the worst and call them selfish etc etc....

I don't get this Butches V Transguys thing. I find it very distressing.

i pass as an old lady school teacher originally from Ohio. Corn-fed vibes. Old lady vibes. School teacher-librarian type vibes.

Sigh. Why can't the kick ass leather femme show??

But, alas, i look like my mom, who was also an old lady school teacher (but not -- as far as i know -- a leather dyke).

I have always wanted to look like the Huge Dyke I am too! "snarl"

i do know Atlast quite well. She is a friend. i haven't made a lot of nods in her direction on this site to inform people of that because, quite honestly, there are a few people around who don't like me, and i didn't want her affected by that.

But i will say that i do know that she offers -- and has long offered -- material support to trans organizations and to the trans people -- and family members of trans people -- in her life.

Because of several family relationships and because of her former profession, she has long been involved in one way or another with the trans community and has offered real meaningful support to individuals and groups.

In fact, i have said to her that it's more than i would do. i don't mean to be rude. i saw the post on the donation thread that had to do with the Transgender Law Center, and i was sort of tempted to donate, but then thought, no, not that's not how i spend my money.

i give my money to women's issues exclusively, usually international ones.

i know that the TLC and similar organizations support the rights of transwomen. i suppose if i knew that my money went to assist them alone, it would make sense for me to donate. But my giving is entirely directed to helping women. It's my money, the result of my precious time spent at work, and it's a choice i get to make.

In terms of personal emotional work and my own liberation from transphobia, i put some time in, but because at this point, for me to develop much further along those lines, it means having to deal with some issues i have had with cisgender men in my past, i do not expect to finish that work in this incarnation. (i am not being facetious. i am a Buddhist.)

Again, Atlast does far more of that kind of work -- thinking, reading, challenging herself -- than i do or will do in this lifetime. A lot more. i see it.

i agree that no one who has benefitted from the political work many of us did back in the day owes us thanks or a big hug or whatever.

i do think that intelligent people should look into their own history. That said, i confess that i do not know much about the history of trans politics or how they have intersected with feminist politics. What i know, i have learned from you, actually, on an old thread on the dash site.

i do think, in general, and certainly on this site, feminism takes a hit and gets characterized in terms that are inaccurate and denigrating. i think that much of the time that that happens, it is an expression of misogyny.

I like you Martina and At Last! I also like Chef and have known him in his different incarnations for 20 years.

I don't know how much money someone has to donate matters, but Chef is a musician and has played at plenty of Feminist and Lesbian fundraisers and well as speaking on several occasions on Trans issues, including at Vanderbilt University.

I bet, in person we would not even be having this conversation, we could see facial expressions and look into each others eyes and know we are on the same side.

Does Chef want to be seen as a Dude? yes, he is a Dude. Has anyone donated money to that end? no.

Oh, and Chef is older than Chef looks. (sorry Andy, just making sure we are clear that you are not some youngster with no clue about Queer history)

thanks Mommie

[QUOTE=AtLastHome;136139]

I don't get it, either that's why I do what I do and always will.

I am taking in your points here about a new person and will act accordingly and in private. I am tired of assumptions, too. And misread statements. But, we are all human. Some of us get fired-up due to our history, I do.

I'm not willing to get into trans related discussions anymore on the site. Just never works here. There are many political threads that I enjoy that are not gender related. (except, for me, the world is interrelated via gender). Real-time relationships and work are my focus and this is just not a good forum for these discussions. Yet, I'm glad this site has this representation because maybe it will help kids and families find resources and support. Frankly, that is what is important to me.

I see the bunching of thanks reps accumulating as the wagons circle. Sometimes I wonder if anyone actually reads posts and thinks about them, or just looks at the Thanks box and clicks because they see particular screen names there. I am not going to use that function anymore- just send reps that are private. I feel like we have made a cheerleading (as in immature in-crowd forming mentality from middle and high school- popularity contests) tool out of that site feature used to summon the forces.

Ok I have issue with this part of your statement. Are you implying that because someone thanks a post that isn't yours they are somehow immature, and high school? Really?? And how many time have I thanked your posts ALH? If you don't want to participate, then don't, but to call members immature because they don't agree with you is a bit offensive,and condescending.


Big weekend ahead with various Pride events in SF with real-time friends and organizations that I am (others are too) proud to be a part of. If my body allows my participation as I want to give it. Time to relax, calm my senses and body so I can be there in full spirit. It is nice to be able to share these activities with people one works with all year. Besides, a friend is going to show his new chest post surgery and he is so funny with his excitement- not going to let this get ruined.

I really am getting too old for this!

i see no wagon circling
just a difference in personal experience and opinion.
i respect your right to feel the way you do
i only ask for the same

@

It makes me sad that you think we are that shallow when we don't agree, that we have not read and have no knowledge of history or community....or even basic reading.

I bet Pride in San Francisco is a blast, I hope you have fun! :)

At Pride in other parts of the country Butches, Femmes and Transpeople are often ostracized, pointed at, talked about, ignored and over the years grow a tough skin. We can't care about how other people see us, or we would either have to move to California, New York City, live in the closet, or just not be ourselves.

Nothing should be ruined, no forces are being summoned. No conspiracy. Just a discussion about a pretty strong post aimed at a new member...and yes, I do have good reading comprehension.

I just do not understand what seemed to be seething anger on this subject. I admit I have not read every thread on the subject, but I do see that there is a great divide.

Again, I hope you have fun at Pride and I hope that you remember how lucky you are to be somewhere Pride and the Queer community is a happy thing.

For what it's worth -

I am very thankful to everybody who has worked hard and is working hard for the rights I have as a woman and for the rights of all members of my LGBTQ community. I owe a lot more than thanks to the people who have paved the way for me and my community.

-------------------------

It really seems that this thread has strayed from its original intent, and maybe that was inevitable.

I do hope that perhaps we could redirect this thread back to the original topic with the understanding and acceptance that we most likely will not achieve consensus? I was never looking for consensus in this thread, but I was really hoping for people to feel like they could share their own thoughts, experiences and feelings. If the tone of the thread has become so rancorous, those who avoid conflict will be less willing to share their own experiences here and I personally feel that would be a shame. Passing especially may be a topic that people who avoid conflict could really have something to say about.

I guess I can't ask that we all sit around the campfire now singing kumbayah, but it would be really cool if we could at least get back on topic?

isolation in passing

There is a girl that works in my building. She's young and feminine, and one day I was trying to describe to her that OKGo video with the treadmills and I said the guys seemed really quirky and funny. She said, "do you mean like queer?" I said, "no, I personally would like that, but I don't know their orientations."

That was maybe 6 months ago and we haven't really spoken much since. I live in a small town in Texas, and I'm the only out person at my workplace (of several hundred).

Since then, I just kinda have the feeling she is herself queer. I see her every now and then and there's just a queer energy there - it's hard to say. At the time, I had no idea how to read her question - whether it was homophobic or if she was somehow addressing queerness because she is queer.

Maybe this is more an issue of invisibility than passing privilege, but that makes me wonder if invisibility and passing privilege are really separable for femmes. I do think there are femmes (and queer and lesbian women) who fully intend to pass as straight and then there are those who frustratingly don't register as anything other than straight, but it seems like there's a fine line in there somewhere where passing and invisibility would be difficult to tease out from each other.

I could possibly have made a really cool femme (or feminine queer) friend in this little town, but because we both pass for straight (if she's not straight) , we don't even have the possibility of community.

Thank the gods for the internet because here we really can wear our IDs as loudly as those with other more noticeable gender IDs.

[quote=Corkey;136148]
Thank you for just asking me for clarification. No, this isn't what I said or implied. It is the process of this Thanks button that I am talking about. It is public and at first I liked it because it was fast and simple. Now, as we go on, I see Thanks piles during controversy and that usually means side-taking. This is my interpretation. Factions do develop on sites like this. Just happens.

That process leads to immature behavior based on who thinks is kewl to me. It is obvious here (and on every other site like this one, that factions develop. It just happens and to me, leads to so much of the bashing we do and inability to actually hear each other (I am amazed at all of the non-related assumptions being made about my posts). Sometimes it's just hard not to get going on this path because there are really serious things happening in our lives and we get sensitive. I get sensitive, too. And I certainly have no expectation of everyone agreeing with me. Not here, that is for certain!

I appreciate Thanks from members very much, but have to say that when they take the time to add a statement or two with a rep message, it feels more personal. My reverting to the traditional rep type does not mean I won't be letting people know I appreciate what they posted.
I said that [B][I]instead of using this feature from now on, I am just going to send a private rep message which is not the same as leaving a public THANKS - different process. I don't remember the Thanks button on the old site.... maybe it was there, possibly added now, I haven't been there in a long time. People that were not part of that site will have no idea what I am talking about.

I feel like this is a huge derail going on, so, if you have something to say to me, just PM me. I am not going to continue to post here and certainly not going to continue to be part of taking the thread off course. I am not going to check back to see any responses to this post. Let people get back to the topic.

Passing into Invisibility
 

SUN! Buddy its good to see you here.

Snip
Amen, neither do I. I just don't get it!!! In fact I had no idea there was even any issues surrounding this until Butch Voices came along.

Every time I see the title of this thread -- it bothers me. Because I don't think passing is ever a privilege. Having white skin, for example, is a privilege, but passing as if you have white skin...? Passing may, or may not, be a choice, but whether it's a choice or not, there is danger inherent in passing. In the eyes of the dominant culture if you pass, you are stealing privilege, not being granted privilege. You are therefore a thief, an interloper, a fraud, you are messing with the power paradigm, and you can pay a heavy price for that.

What's interesting is that there is the reality of being granted privilege if you are NOT passing, but are somehow more closely aligned with the dominant culture anyway. For example, being a light-skinned person-of-color is not passing, but can result in benefits based upon the over-valuing of light skin (colorism). But it's not passing that creates privilege. Passing defies the very definition of privilege. Passing may be a form of resistance or survival, but its not, IMO, a privilege.
Heart

It feels like privilege has become a catch-all term (even hackneyed)on this and other sites. Even a buzz term for [I]I'm politically correct[/I].. look at me.... Honest, self-examination of one's privilege to me, is just ending up as a mean's to be viewed as PC without the very painful work that really does need to be done.

What you bring to light (in red, above) here is so central to this entire analysis and the lack of understanding that privilege has many distinctions in various modalities and populations. It is also not the singular domain of US society. It is not stagnate concept that, it has fluidity in its myriad forms.

I think that what id important for me is to realize that I will always have to study privilege and never accept that it will disappear in any form in my lifetime. And that to view it from a singular stance will not serve me well.

When terms become nothing more than slogans, I know it is time to be more vigilant.

Whether I was given five dollars, or I 'stole' five dollars...I still have five dollars.

Whether the privilege is given or 'stolen', it's still granted. And if there weren't privilege in passing, people wouldn't stay in the closet nor would they 'pass'. It's because they don't want the discrimination (if we're talking 'staying in the closet').

And plenty of 'passing' people use the privilege they have been granted to oppress others in their same oppressed group. Some would even say that just staying in the closet oppresses others.

So, whether it's given freely or 'stolen', One still has the privilege. And it's 'given' in the first place, because One didn't bother to say anything about it/One didn't correct the assumption.


Dylan

I found this an interesting read

Thanks for an terrific post. I agree in part (leaders of our movement do sacrifice the rights of trans people in a misguided, pragmatic and even self-hating attempt to lay a foundation for political success) and disagree (the political is personal: as a femme lesbian, I don't enjoy a privilege to pass - rather, I can elect to endure any uneasy detente the price of which is self immolation. I suppose a trans person could simply suffer living the life of the opposite gender, the one the world assigned at birth. So could we femme lesbians do that too. Is that life privledge? And if it is all about a private act in the bedroom, what does it mean when we take our lover's hand in the street because we love her? No, I would refine the argument: Attractive (not fat) apparently-gender confirming queer people are less threatening to the established order. We can choose in those moments of tacit acceptance to champion our trans brothers and sisters or we can leave them behind. Of course, when any of us is left behind, so are we all.

There are points well taken on both sides, however I disagree with the above part of your post. It is not the job of the person granted passing privilege to constantly correct assumptions based upon other people's biases.

And I still contend that while passing may be a tool, a strategy, a device, it does not meet the definition of privilege because at any moment it can be removed from you by others. In fact those that are passing face specific risks related to discovery. Think Brandon Teena.

Heart

I think if One is unhappy with the assumptions, then it IS One's job to constantly correct. I don't think One can be too upset that people around One think One is X if One doesn't take the initiative to correct those assumptions. If I'm read as female, I can internally be upset that I am not being read as male, but it's my job to correct those assumptions in some way. Yeah, it's tiring, but expecting Others to just 'know' something is placing the burden/blame on Others. I mean, I can question, "What am I doing that's making me 'look female'?", but most people are going to assume that if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, etc. There are ways to out Oneself if One chooses to do it...but many people don't choose to do it, because of the fact that they don't want to face the discrimination.

No, I agree with you...I don't think passing in and of itself is a privilege (until it is used privilegedly). I mean, being white is not a privilege until One steps outside of their house and is granted that privilege. Privilege like gender is determined by Others. However, One is still being granted the privilege and is still using the privilege of the dominant group. When I'm granted male privilege, it's usually cis-male privilege (trans-male privilege looks a little bit different). I'm still given the privilege, and yeah, it's a tightrope walk, and it can be taken away...but I still have the privilege. I totally get what you're saying. But I've still been granted that privilege.

I think if One chooses to 'pass' (i.e. stay in the closet), then the burden IS on One. I'm specifically talking about people who (for instance), change up pronouns when in conversations with co-workers/friends/family/whomever to 'appear' straight. Or, people who have smoke screen marriages to keep the illusion of Straightdom. I think if One knowingly chooses to pass in order to maintain the privilege, One can't really bitch later when One isn't read as a member of the oppressed group. I DO totally think there's something in experiencing that discrimination and living that discrimination that sets up the social cues of the oppressed group. There are just different social cues for (using the example of) straight people and queers. If One has spent their time 'polishing' their social cues to be read as straight, those polished social cues are not going to 'cut the mustard' when One enters a queer space, and One is going to be read as 'straight', because all of the social cues they're giving off are going to be read as such. This happens with some trans people also...no matter what they do, they're just read as their assigned gender (or they're read as queer). I think this happens with ANY person who (intentionally) 'passes' regardless what oppressed group they belong to. I think the nuances are (sometimes) incredibly subtle, but they're definitely there. I also think these nuances and the privilege granted causes a lot of the biphobia we see so much of, because (it's assumed) bi people get a lot of straight privilege, and they haven't lived the 'queer experience'...they're not treated with the same discrimination as out gays/lesbians, because 'they have one foot in Straightdom' (again, assumptions).

I think a lot of (what is tagged) homophobia is also cisnormative privilege, because a very masculine/butch (speaking in societal definitions of what is masculine/feminine) gay man is going to be treated a lot differently than a big flaming queen. A very feminine lesbian is going to be treated a lot differently than a very butch lesbian...even if the butch man/feminine lesbian come out of the closet. And you can see how the difference in treatment runs down from very feminine lesbians through andro lesbians and down to butch lesbians...you can see the same gamut run through butch gay men through andro gay men and down to the treatment of effeminate gay men. The more one 'conforms' (not quite the word I want) to what society says is appropriate, the more privilege One is granted ('assimilation' is rewarded...even if One is not necessarily 'trying' to assimilate, it is read as assimilation, and it's still rewarded).

I rambled all over the place, but basically, I think if One chooses to stay in the closet, One can't bitch later, because they weren't read This Way. One can't have One's cake and eat it too. One can't live in the closet when it's convenient (i.e. adhere to social cues of Straightdom), and then complain when in the company of the Oppressed group that they're being read as straight. I mean, if One is utilizing the tools of the oppressor (i.e. the social cues of the dominant group), it's not the burden of the oppressed group to 'just know' One is actually part of the group.


Dylan

Actually, I think there are differences between passing privilege related to race and that related to gender and mixing it all up together could cause confusion.

My ex partner was African American and could pass for white. Had she corrected people's assumptions, that is pretty much all she would have done all day, every day. Passing for white resulted in being constantly subjected to the kind of casual racism that most people would not have enacted in front of her if they knew she was a person-of-color.

So, the issue really wasn't so much correcting someone's innocent assumption that she was white (which she did with regularity), as much as it was having to confront people's unexamined and often subtle forms of racism constantly. I don't think you, Dylan, would say that it is the job of a person of color to have to constantly, daily educate white folks about their racism -- but that's basically what you are suggesting my ex, who had "passing privilege," should do. Maybe the problem isn't the assumption so much as it is the "ism" that invariably follows the assumption. That's the thing that makes passing not a real privilege in my book.

Heart

I hear a lot more 'gay' jokes now that I am assumed straight. If I don't want to hear the comments, it's my job to stand up and say something...I would expect an ally would do the same. No, it's not my job to educate people on queer issues, but it IS MY responsibility to put MY boundaries in place in what kind of comments I want to hear. I don't even have to out myself to do that. I don't have to out myself as trans to tell someone off-color comments are not acceptable. I mean, even when I 'looked' queer, I still heard comments every day...they just weren't presented in the same manner. Off color comments aren't really appropriate for any situation, are they? I think a privileged jackass is a privileged jackass. Is it the ism or the privilege that follows the assumption? Six of one/half dozen, probably, eh?

It may very well be quite different for POC, people with disabilities, or any other group to which I don't belong...I don't know as I don't belong to those groups.

However, if I don't want people to assume I'm cis, or if I don't want people to assume I'm straight, it's MY responsibility to deal with outing myself. It's also MY responsibility (when in trans or queer space) to let people know my status (if I want them to know). Blaming other people for NOT recognizing me is...well...kind of weak and lazy...especially if I'm giving off social cues that others may not recognize (i.e. getting upset because straight people can't read queer cues, or utilizing cis cues around trans people). I mean, straight people (who aren't culturally queer) don't know 'queer code'. They're going to look for obvious things like 'swishy' walking or 'limp wristed' behaviors (obvious 'stereotypical' behaviors). Straight people are not going to pick up on subtle cues (sometimes even not so subtle...I'm surprised how many straight people have rainbow flags, because they just love rainbows, and they have no idea it's actually a queer moniker) queers would pick up on. They're just not. If straight people don't speak MY language, and I want them to understand me, it's MY responsibility to put it in words they can understand. Whatever happens after that is on them. I'm not responsible for their (re)actions, but I can't very well complain if they don't 'see me' as queer or trans.

If I walk around all of the time saying 'straight/cis' things and acting 'straight/cis', I can't very well get upset if people then assume I'm straight/cis, right? I mean, that's just kind of a double bind. "I'm going to act straight and cis, and then when you make the assumption that I'm straight and cis, I'm going to blame you for making that assumption." "If I speak a code you don't understand, and then you don't understand me, I'm going to blame you for not understanding me." I mean, really?

And again, if someone is very invested in passing (again, living in the closet...and being conscious of passing...i.e. changing pronouns of partners, so as not to blow One's 'cover'...in other words, speaking the language/code of straight people), it's NOT the responsibility of Others to 'know' when One wants to be recognized. I think expecting people to know when One 'wants' to be recognized is a little...mmmmm...what's the word I want?...obnoxious?...arrogant?...double-bindy?...weak?...lazy?...I don't know the word I want.

I 'pass' (as straight) in limited interaction type environments. If I have to spend too much time with someone new, weirdness happens. And that weirdness happens, because I don't 'talk straight'. I talk in a language/code most straight people can't understand. But, I get the cis privilege, because cis people just don't think about trans people...at all. I just confuse people, because they can't say I'm 'gay', because I'm with Mahhh Woman (or they've met her, or I've brought her up in conversation). It just absolutely never dawns on them that I'm trans. They stare at me trying to figure out what the fuck, but it just never dawns on them. I would have to actually TELL them. Even if I fuck up and say something like, "My mother would have rather I got pregnant at 16..." (which just happened the other day), it just never dawns on them that I'm trans. They just look at me like I'm from another planet and say, "How would that happen?" They don't speak the code trans (or even queer) people would pick up on. If I want them to know, I have to tell them in THEIR language (as opposed to trans code). That's not educating (altho, it could very well lead to educating)...it's telling people "how that would happen". I can't very well get pissed off at cis people for 'not seeing me' as trans. I mean, yeah, I can get ticked that I constantly have to tell people, or that I have to out myself constantly, or that I have to explain something, but to get upset AT cis people or straight people, because I (me,me,me) don't want to open my own mouth? That's putting an awful lot of (my own) responsibility on other people, and expecting them to do a lot of work for some random acquaintance/client/co-worker/stranger/someone not really that attached to me.

If I just expected those people to 'just know', it's kind of self-centered, no? I mean, expecting people to 'just know' when I haven't given them any clue? Isn't that kind of like expecting people to 'just know' my toe hurts if I'm not limping or walking 'out of the norm' or saying 'ow'? And then, when I've acted like nothing happened, I'm then 'allowed' to be mad at them for not recognizing my hurting toe? That's ridiculous.

And if I'm in trans or queer space, it's also my responsibility to conform to trans/queer code if I want people to 'recognize' me. I mean, let's say, I walk into a gay/lesbian bar. I'm going to be immediately seen as suspect if I don't say something. If I don't follow the social cues like I speak the language, I'm going to be seen as a threatening interloper. How are queers supposed to 'just know' I'm queer unless I say something to them? And why is it THEIR fault if they can't 'read me'? Why is it someone else's responsibility to 'get me' and not my own responsibility to 'let them know'? I mean, is it a lesbian's job to 'just know' if I walk into a lesbian bar, and I don't give off the right set of social cues? If I lived somewhere where there were trans bars, it would also be my responsibility to speak the code for the patrons of that establishment. I mean, if I act like an ogling/scared/frustrated straight cis man, I can't very well get pissed off if people assume I'm an ogling or scared or frustrated straight cis man. Straight people are threatening in queer space. If I'm read as straight, I'm going to be seen as threatening, and people are probably going to keep their distance from me until I give off some sort of social cue. Same as if I walk too closely behind a woman on the street at night. Straight cis men are considered threatening to women. If I walk too closely behind a woman, I'm going to be seen as a threat. Who's responsibility is it to 'just know'? Is the responsibility on that woman, or is it on me?

Now, I'm not saying, I think it's right that straight people are seen as a threat to queers, but it's just the way it is because of history. And if I act straight and cis/give off the social cues of straight cis people, I'm going to be treated as such.


Dylan

Great post Dylan - though what we were talking about originally wasn't whose responsibility it is to deal with bias -- it was whether or not passing is a privilege. In fact, this discussion of responsibility is one of the ways in which passing is distinctly not a privilege, since true privilege requires no explanations or disclaimers.

Passing is a reality that exists due to the power pardigmn. It may be a choice someone makes as a strategy for survival, a by-product of their presentation, or something they actively try to confront. It may grant temporary comfort and ease or it may get someone killed. But what passing is not, in my book, is a privilege. Privilege doesn't put you at risk for bashing, lynching, or rape. I get that passing can feel like a privilege in comparison to the direct harassment that a person without the ability to pass might face, but feeling like a privilege is not the same as actual privilege. I think the difference is relevant.

Heart

ETA: In fact, for it to make sense to me, I need to uncouple the words "passing," and "privilege." We are not granted "passing privilege." Yes, my ex was sometimes granted white-skin privilege, (until she wasn't), I am sometimes granted straight privilege (until I'm not), a butch might be granted male privilege (until s/he isn't). It is a privilege to be white, straight, or male. It is not a privilige to pass as those things.