I can pretty much say "ditto" to this because I think everything you said applies to me. Firearms were commonplace when I was growing up and like most things that I grew up around, having them in the house or truck was just "normal". Everyone I knew owned guns. Everyone I knew hunted. My grandfather made gun stocks and taught me how to use, store and clean them. In many ways, they were just tools. No different than fishing tackle or hand tools. Maybe it is just a Texas thing.

While I don't currently own a firearm or have any desire to carry a concealed weapon, I've never felt uncomfortable around someone that was legally armed.

I do have to say that the whole thing about the CCW permit allowing people to bypass the security line in the capital building is about the funniest thing I've heard of in years.

Yeah, about the security lines, holy shit, really!

Thanks, because I struggle here, seriously. Like my mom named her guns, they were a part of our family,and that may sound absolutely nuts to some, but my mom wasn't stuffing her pants with them, we just lived with them and we knew (my sister and I as kids) to respect them--we knew how they worked, etc. Commonplace, but really respected. My grandmother died with a shotgun underneath her bed. They just existed alongside us. So this is culturally weird for me, and I grapple with it.

ETA: And you have to, in Texas, have something to kill all the damn snakes. My grandma named her favorite shot gun, the "snake charmer," so it's weird how upbringing plays into things, that's all.

I was 3 or 4 the first time I really remember hearing a gun fired. My Mom and I were swimming in Onion Creek (this was way before it became what it is now and some friends had cattle on a couple of acres that the creek ran through), she was floating in an inner tube and I was on a raft. She saw a water moccasin a few feet from where we were in the water. She yelled over to the bank and Bill grabbed a gun from the truck and shot it. With us just floating there. And it was no big deal. We all just kept floating and playing in the water. So yeah, I think part of it is how you're raised.

I know the possibility of someone carrying concealed (legally or not) is high. Has to do with where I live. It does bother me because idiots can get riled and pull the damn gun out and... boom! Many kids are carrying and I am very aware of the fact that getting into some kind of argument with them may be at my peril. I don't own a gun and don't want one. i will avoid conflict due to the fact that I know there are so many people around me that do have guns on their person.

I grew up in a hunting family and guns were in my home (rifles and shot guns). As a kid, I hunted. We all took NRA training and my Dad kept all guns and shells locked-up.

Once, I dated a woman that carried all of the time because of the neighborhood she lived in. I was not comfortable with her bringi8ng the gun into my home, so, she locked it in a box in her trunk. But, it was her right to have it as far as I was concerned, just not around me. she had a license, went to shooting practice and seemed like a responsible gun owner to me. I don't want one near me.

The whole "I feel more safe knowing that people carry guns" thing confuses me. It makes me feel as though you aren't thinking things through.

There is a higher percentage of violent crime (personal crime) in the US than there is here - so how are your guns making you any safer? I would argue that it makes you LESS safe. When I visit the US I try hard not to think about the fact that the people around me might have handguns in their purses - because if I think about that too much I WILL NOT VISIT THE US. It's too scary for me. Like Atlast said - I also, knowing that the people around me are likely to have a gun, avoid conflict in the US. I do not feel safer. I feel intimidated.

People who are super in favour of carrying guns always seem to (with me) use the argument that there is less property crime (theft, vandalism, etc) in the US. But I ask you this: Would you rather have someone steal something of yours...or would you rather get shot? I mean, honestly. It should be a no-brainer.

If someone is going to assault me in Canada, they are more likely to use a knife than a gun. I would much rather get stabbed than get shot - you're more likely to survive a knife wound than a bullet wound.

I have no problem with people keeping guns in their house for hunting, for collections, etc. I do have a problem with people keeping LOADED guns in their house. I have a bigger problem with people keeping loaded guns on their person out in public. It sounds judgmental - but I could not be friends with someone who carried a gun with them because I would be uncomfortable and feel unsafe while hanging out with them.

My father has a hunting rifle in his house. No problem there. He keeps it locked in a cabinet. He keeps his bullets locked in a box in another area of the house. He does not keep the key to the cabinet and the key to the box in the same place. That's the law - except for the thing about keeping the keys separate, that's just about my Dad being my Dad.

Speaking as an outsider: American culture in general strikes me as pretty gun loving. American culture ALSO strikes me as very fear driven. Fear and guns sounds like a really shitty combination to me. Your media and your politicians seem to be pulling together to get you guys afraid and KEEP you afraid. Scared people toe the line. Scared people don't speak up, act out, or make a scene. Scared people strike me as less free.

Precisely. Permit or no permit, education or not, it just takes one emotionally charged incident to justify (whether rational or not) shooting someone.

I love guns. I love all kinds of weaponry, actually. But I don't have any in my house. That may change, but for now, I have no use for a gun in my house. I'm okay with that. I'm not okay with carrying one around 24/7. I'm not okay knowing someone that walks around with one either.

Not too long ago, someone very close to us dated a military man -- who obviously had a permit to carry guns. Well, long story short, turns out the fucker was a psycho, who not only had legal guns, but a shit load of illegal ones as well - and carried them around with him in his truck. And, he wasn't afraid to threaten people with it, or intimidate people by letting them know he was carrying one. Point is, people who you think should be trusted with guns, really aren't. You might think that is an isolated incident, but is it really? I don't think so. I know too many cops who shouldn't be carrying guns.

Where I do believe that everyone has a right to bear arms, I also think of the dangers associated with that "freedom". It does all boil down to responsibility, but even the most responsible person "loses it" at some point. I can only hope I am not in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It just amazes me when people blame and worry about innocent, law-abiding U.S. citizens having guns. In my opinion, THAT'S what's wrong - misplaced responsibility. Let the predatory criminals do whatever they want, and god forbid someone try to stop them?

You cannot wipe out generations who used and viewed guns as a means of survival - for food and safety. Try stabbing a poisonous snake, go ahead. Those of us who grew up around guns were taught to use them only for defense (excluding target-shooting and hunting). It is those who misuse guns - i.e., for offensive purposes - who are to blame, are they not?

Should we have a society where there is no need for citizens to have handguns? That would be wonderful, and I challenge you to find one person in the U.S. who wouldn't want to live in such a manner. The reality is, unfortunately, very different. We absolutely do live in a culture of fear of violence. It is not without reason and evidence as some suggest, however. Rather than condemnation, is there compassion? Compassion for those who don't contribute to such an environment; for those who would like nothing better than to be able to leave their windows open and doors unlocked at night; for those who don't molest; for those who don't prey upon others.

I'd like to know, from those of you who do not believe innocent, law-abiding citizens should own guns, what your suggestion is. What would you do, if you could, to end the culture of violence in the U.S.? This is a serious question; I'm truly interested in your proposed solutions.

yes I have...once.
I was robbed at the place I was working and I let them have what they came in for, money.
I had a pistol in my boot and could have shot the perp as he left. that is not why I carry though.
I carry when I feel the need, for my safety.

Saying that those opposed to citizens arming themselves with either concealed or not concealed weapons is not saying this: " Let the predatory criminals do whatever they want, and god forbid someone try to stop them." That's a false argument.

Having ordinary citizens (many of whom are not "innocent" and most of whom are not sharp shooters) will not decrease crime or violence in any way, shape or form.

This reminds me of the argument of trying to say that having nuclear weapons that can blow the world up to smithereens somehow makes the world safer. :| More guns just increases the odds more violence is going to happen- simple math.

Having more people with guns- do you really think the "predatory" criminals are going to be deterred by ordinary citizens carrying guns? Personally I think they will be rolling in the aisles at the thought of Sam and Sally Sharpshooter trying to take them down.

It's always quite telling the international response to the gun issue versus Americans (USA variety). People in other countries are just as concerned about crime and protecting their loved ones as we are. They don't see guns as the answer.

I think that for me, one of the problems with this discussion are what one presupposes as innocent and law abiding. Historically, this position of what might be called rightness (and whiteness) those deemed to fit in this group and were either given tacit approval, legal approval, or permits, belonged to group who wielded power over others. Those denied such permissions were "law breakers" and others who were deemed "at risk."
As a POC and butch, I was assaulted by self proclaimed REDNECKS on the Burnside Bridge in Portland, Oregon some years ago. As a health care professional without a criminal record, I was denied a permit to carry, despite this experience. I didn't really want to, but like many here, wad frightened. A friend of a friend was on the Police force. He took me to a shooting range. Taught me safety and cleaning, then helped me bypass the prior denial to get my permit. I did buy a gun ... it was stolen@
! But I was both afraid about this and very glad.

Even though there have been occasions, for protection of self or material thongs (even my new kitchen sink wstill in the box was stolen), I never got another gun. I was really angered about the thefts, but realized that I didn't want to shoot some kid over a Friggin sink. Besides, Oakland PD being what it is (and if there were a reason to carry, they would be it ... for ME), I would likely be denied as a matter of course.

Sorry about the ramble.

I think that for me, one of the problems with this discussion are what one presupposes as innocent and law abiding. Historically, this position of what might be called rightness (and whiteness) those deemed to fit in this group and were either given tacit approval, legal approval, or permits, and belonged to group who wielded power over others. Those denied such permissions were "law breakers" and others who were deemed "at risk."
As a POC and butch, I was assaulted by self proclaimed REDNECKS on the Burnside Bridge in Portland, Oregon some years ago. As a health care professional without a criminal record, I was denied a permit to carry, despite this experience. I didn't really want to, but like many here, was frightened. A friend of a friend was on the Police force. He took me to a shooting range. Taught me safety and cleaning, then helped me bypass the prior denial to get my permit. I did buy a gun ... it was stolen@
! But I was both afraid about this and very glad.

Even though there have been occasions, for protection of self or material thongs (even my new kitchen sink wstill in the box was stolen), I never got another gun. I was really angered about the thefts, but realized that I didn't want to shoot some kid over a Friggin sink. Besides, Oakland PD being what it is (and if there were a reason to carry, they would be it ... for ME), I would likely be denied as a matter of course.

Sorry about the ramble.

Good points Waxnrope. If ordinary citizens are allowed to carry concealed weapons, does anyone really believe that young men of color or say visibly looking queer people are going to be given the same "right?"

As to police officers having guns, let's ask the people of color who live in Portland, OR if they feel safer knowing this.

After continuing to read this discussion I have moments where I feel proud to be German - which is a first!

Where to start - or continue? It makes shiver to read "growing up around guns". Every year there are thousands of children and teenagers who get killed as a result accidents involving guns. Apparently those law-abiding citizens do not all come with good parenting skills or the little bit of imagination it takes to figure out what could happen when your five year old gets his or her hands on the gun under mum's bed.

I suspect that, just as one item on another thread a poster felt like a hamster, we are spinning around our own beliefs and convictions, the lines are drawn and no one will move or cross boundaries. Yet I hope that we all understand the fear that drives people to have a gum, albeit, those fears may be oppositional, thus noteworthy. I also hope that those who advocate the use and legal permission to carry guns realize that not everyone will have the right to do so :tarot:

Meanwhile, criminals will continue to get and use guns. And SOME police and others given authority will abuse their rights. Ah, an armed nation, legal and illegally armed. Pass the popcorn, please.

This is a different time. Unless you live in the woods surrounded by bears and only get to eat what you personally kill - you do not need guns for food and safety. You do not need a gun on your person at the grocery store. You do not need a gun on your person at the post office. You do not need a gun on your person at a bar.

I can see how carrying a handgun can potentially make a shitty situation into a deadly situation. If somebody who has a gun is stealing your wallet and you reach for or mention your gun - he's going to shoot you. You have turned a situation where you could have lost your wallet and kept your life into a situation where you get to keep neither. But you're safer, how?

More guns is not going to solve the problem of violence in the US. Guns, handgun specifically, are an instrument of violence. On what planet does it make sense that you're going to stop violence by creating more violence?

Thank you for mentioning this important aspect. I think it is not possible to fully understand the discussion on gun laws in this country without seeing it in the context of White Privilege. Here an excerpt from an interesting article by Tim Wise:

Imagine if the Tea Party was Black (by Tim Wise)

(...)

Imagine that hundreds of black protesters were to descend upon Washington DC and Northern Virginia, just a few miles from the Capitol and White House, armed with AK-47s, assorted handguns, and ammunition. And imagine that some of these protesters —the black protesters — spoke of the need for political revolution, and possibly even armed conflict in the event that laws they didn’t like were enforced by the government? Would these protester — these black protesters with guns — be seen as brave defenders of the Second Amendment, or would they be viewed by most whites as a danger to the republic? What if they were Arab-Americans? Because, after all, that’s what happened recently when white gun enthusiasts descended upon the nation’s capital, arms in hand, and verbally announced their readiness to make war on the country’s political leaders if the need arose.

(...)

(To read the full article go to: http://cosmicnavellint.blogspot.com/...-tim-wise.html)

Good points, Bully, but I don't think citizens who arm themselves for protection have any expectations or intentions to deter and affect the overall crime rate. They just want to protect themselves and their loved ones should the need arise. Deterrence connotes proactivity. Guns for self-defense are RE-active; reacting to a situation one is dealt through no fault of their own.

I'm curious, why did you put predator in quotes?

Still waiting to hear WHAT to do, not what NOT to do.

If I walked in a Starbucks and saw a bunch of folks with weapons I would RUN out the door..........scares the bejesus out of me.........I would also be willing to bet a year's pay that those folks were white in that Starbucks......and I would bet a year's pay that if all those folks armed in Starbucks were black no one would feel safe..........

more to say later............

Well I agree with you that guns for self-defense is re-active not proactive and will not result in deterrence. I have heard many gun proponents say that gun ownership by ordinary citizens will lead to a decrease in crime, and I find that idea to be ludicrous.

I have also read several times that many (perhaps a majority but I am not sure) of crimes committed where a gun was involved that the gun was stolen. So again, having more guns in circulation is going to help how?

Certainly there are some responsible people such as yourself who would only use a gun if really, really you felt it necessary to protect yourself, wife or other loved ones. I am sure you would use good judgment and if you were to have a gun I would assume you would make sure you knew how to use it.

Do I think the majority of ordinary citizens if they were to have guns would operate in this manner? No I do not. Look at how people use their cell phones while driving (hello a moving vehicle can kill people, I don't think chatting to your friends while driving is a real responsible thing to do).

Even if used responsibly, what are the chances of an ordinary citizen armed with a gun being really able to effectively protect themselves against an armed criminal who knows going in what they are doing and the ordinary citizen is caught off guard? Also, don't armed criminals often work in groups, rather than as one person? I think people watch way too many violent cops and robbers shows and think they can be a hero. I am sure there are some wonderful exceptions to this.

As to putting quotes around predatory, I think I was off put by the whole innocent citizen thing so probably that was just unnecessary of me. There are armed violent criminals who are predatory. I think having more and more people armed with guns and more guns in circulation will just produce more of them.

My first step is make guns really, really, really, really hard to get. As hard to get as possible. Give armed police officers and any other security or what have you armed personnel lots and lots of training of when they should and shouldn't shoot off their guns (which of course is going to require more than just technical training).

Is this going to wipe out all crime as we know it? No. But I sure as hell think it beats putting more guns into circulation, especially in the hands of people who can't even drive their shopping carts through the grocery store properly.

Your last point was hilarious, and so true. I, too, agree that there are many people who have no business owning a gun, and they scare me often more than armed predators do. When I policed, I was filled with trepidation more when I got a violent crime in progress, "citizen armed" call than just a violent crime in progress. We would have the dispatcher tell the citizen to put their gun down and away as soon as we pulled into the driveway or parking lot. I had a citizen one time holding his handgun and use it as a pointer to show me the direction in which his house burglar had run. You can bet I had a few choice words and actions for him.

I seriously think on one point someone made that most people have enough common sense to know that you have no hope of drawing your gun if you're already drawn upon. If I were armed and got caught with a gun in my face demanding my wallet, you best believe I'd hand my wallet over. No mention of nor movement toward my gun would I make, because I have no chance of prevailing. After the gun is out of my face, I can decide then what I'm going to do. And, you're so right, that predators more often than not are not acting alone. They have at least one and sometimes more compatriots in the near vicinity watching it all go down, ready to react if something goes wrong.

If we can't rid our culture of predatory gun violence, and people continue to be allowed to arm themselves with handguns, they should absolutely have to go through extensive training and safety courses that involve multiple simulated encounters.

Well it seems we mostly agree! I am just wondering under what scenarios you do think it's a good idea. I guess ordinary citizens who are put through the rigors to really prove they know what they are doing? I am honestly not sure how this helps us overall, perhaps a lucky few who are willing to really hone their skills? Even then the gun will almost always be pulled on them first and there is a good chance they will be outnumbered. I am honestly not seeing many scenarios where a citizen being armed (even those who really know what they are doing and are ultra responsible) is going to actually help.

Zora, when people in the U.S. talk about growing up around guns, they don't just mean that their family had one in the house, stuck up in the closet somewhere or in a nightstand drawer. They mean that guns were essentially a part of life - used regularly for hunting, for shooting poisonous snakes in the yard or on the farm, for shooting predators of their livestock, etc. The children have been taught a healthy fear of and respect for the power of guns. They're not viewed as toys and we were not allowed to use or treat them as such. You were taught how to shoot them, under what circumstances you could shoot, and how to clean and take care of them. The worst mistake a parent can make is to have a gun in the house and think they're hiding it from their kids and, as a result, never teach their kids about it. Children know what's hiding in their parents' closets and drawers and they will be fascinated by and drawn to a gun. If the family is open and instructional, it takes away the fascination away and, therefore, the temptation to get it out to 'see how it works' and feels in one's hands.

Just because someone has a permit to carry a concealed weapon, does not mean thay have a "get out of jail free" card. You can't just shoot someone for stealing, or trespassing. Your life has to be endanger.

Yes, we do agree more than we disagree. The scenarios I have in my head have more to do with homeowners protecting themselves than with carry and carry concealed, actually. The carry scenarios are along the lines of if I knew Soon or I was being targeted, such as a stalker, I would want a firearm to have some chance at leveling the playing field, and armed citizens being able to intervene in protecting someone else who is being attacked. I think there are very few incidences of armed citizens out in public being able to successfully defend themselves against an armed perp for the very reasons you mentioned. But, I still wouldn't want people to not be able to arm themselves. I see much more value in having them pass an extensive training course than to just wait 3 days and pass a background check.

Situations vary
 

So, of course it becomes apparent that the situation matters a great deal.

NYC is so jam packed with tense people hardly anybody gets to carry and there's mandatory jail time for a crime with an unpermitted handgun.

And out in the countryside it's a very different story.

And in Hawaii, who needs a gun??

I've been thinking about this in terms of handguns in glove compartments of vehicles.

Thats very true

Keri,

I wholeheartedly disagree with your interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. It wasn't written so people could hunt their food, but rather for the people to be able to defend themselves against and regain their rights against a tyrannical government, should one develop. The framers had already experienced tyrannical rule from a government - England's attempts at taxation without representation - so, they wanted to make sure should another develop, that govt wasn't the only entity with guns.

Your other point that militias were intended to be govt controlled is completely contrary to the purpose of the Amendment - that of the people being able to overthrow an oppressive regime. Why would the framers have wanted a tyrannical govt organizing and regulating the very citizens who would attempt to overthrow it? That's akin to having the fox guard the hen house. Militia referred to every able-bodied man in the state - Jefferson's own papers bore that out. The "well-regulated" was for people within their own groups (militias) to organize and train so that there would be a better chance of success.

Out of all the concealed carry arguments that go on, the one that really freaks me out is the debate as to whether CCW's can be taken into bars. THIS really does not make me feel safe at all.

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2...31601-ar-8602/

I know in Louisiana is is illegal to carry a weapon into a bar.

It was illegal here until this year. I know the debate is going on in a few other states.

I totally agree, Bard. Alcohol and guns don't mix. Kinda like my thoughts on off shore drilling. No matter how ya slice it, oil and water do not mix.

Az. the wild wild west
 

Gun ownership, I believe it's a huge responsibility, as it should be. Too many folks out there just don't have the smarts God gave a goat to carry water let alone a gun, especially into a bar..really? are these law makers that stupid? YES! Here where I live, they're going for the "you don't need a permit to carry a concealed weapon/gun", walk into the gun store, lay your money down buy the gun and out into the world you go...just like that..."cash n carry".. OK give me a drink, a stiff one!. Someone said that 70% (?) of murders are commited by guns...noo they're commited by morons with guns, that's their mentality..these same folks, if no guns were available, would kill just the same..of course it's much easier to kill using a gun rather than a knife..or a baseball bat etc...just this week here in my hometown no less than 5 murders, and 4 out of the 5 were commited by one or more gang members. These weaklings that think they're men, or women, because they pull a gun a kill people. One thing that I despise with a fire hot passion, is gangbangers, and anybody that thinks it's a cool life style is in serious need of good ol'fashion lobotomy. But I digress. I think gun ownership should be a 'privilege, not necessarly a right..judging by the madness and violence in this country that seems to be getting worse by the hour. I'm not one to have big brother all up in my bis but, in this case I think that for the safety of us all, some common sense and intelligent laws should be passed about responsible gun ownership. Too many places have a "blanc check" attitude, and a blanc head, when it comes to this all important issue. (please excuse the typos...)

If you haven't watched this, watch all 12 videos..
 

Part 6: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W79Zn_V2JUk"]YouTube- Bowling for Columbine [Part 6 of 12][/nomedia]

Part 7: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NjEoHXEb-s"]YouTube- Bowling for Columbine [Part 7 of 12][/nomedia]

Part 8: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyYCK-q6mxU"]YouTube- Bowling for Columbine [Part 8 of 12][/nomedia]

Part 9: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPhnPKV-5GI"]YouTube- Bowling for Columbine [Part 9 of 12][/nomedia]

Part 10: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo3SrRfAJ_M"]YouTube- Bowling for Columbine [Part 10 of 12][/nomedia]

Part 11: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqfiu_oSka0"]YouTube- Bowling for Columbine [Part11 of 12][/nomedia]

Part 12: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-wcqSKse-I"]YouTube- Bowling for Columbine [Part 12 of 12][/nomedia]

i would never personally own a concealed weapon, and in my 20's i was against anyone bearing arms. however, in the last 5 years or so my feelings and opinion about it has changed. it was mostly because my sister came back from the war in iraq with her military issued gun. she is a responsible gun owner and has educated herself about gun safety and maintaince. because of that, i have come to believe that gun owners like my sister do have the right to bear arms. i also believe that we stricter gun laws and a better effort to get illegal weapons out of the wrong hands. there should be an extremely thorough process in place to be able to purchase a weapon. with more safeguards in place maybe potentially criminal minded individuals would not be able to obtain a concealed weapon.