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I'm a lesbian, and I'm proud of that. I feel I fought hard to earn the right to identify as a lesbian. That being said, I also love transmen and androgynous folks, as well as gender queer beings. I don't think my lesbian identity interferes with that, though. :)
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I know we don't thank those who have actually pioneered our rights nearly enough, those who have gone through riots, hiding who they are, those that have paved the way, so to speak. Those generationed before me. (is that a word :| ) ? |
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I feel I fought for my right to wear the label because of the harassment and abuse I survived from family, friends and peers and my refusal to identify differently even when i was in danger. That being said, there are many who lost their lives or their light when it was much more dangerous back before stonewall and over the past 50 years. I was lucky. |
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SEX refers to biological differences; chromosomes, hormonal profiles, internal and external sex organs. GENDER describes the characteristics that a society or culture delineates as masculine or feminine. Gender is culturally constructed and varies from culture to culture. Here's why this matters: An Editorial from The Journal of Applied Physiology The continuing dedication by physiologists to sex-based and women’s health research comes from the understanding that although females and males share many physiological similarities, they are fundamentally different. This is a basic biological principle in all species in which sexes exist, and there is an obvious need to explore the differentiation that the evolution of sex has afforded humans and their biology, but female and male sex-based research is not the same as gender-based research. The point is that avoiding synonymous use of the terms sex and gender serves to avoid misusing the concepts of sex and gender across disciplines of science. In summary, it is appropriate to use the term sex when referring to the biology of human and animal subjects, and the term gender is reserved for reference to the self-identity and/or social representation of an individual. Some people many not care about women's health research, but I do personally and professionally. Historically, it has lagged far behind male health research, including in funding. Mixing metaphors, syntax, nouns with verbs, adjectives and neologisms may be "play" for some people, but some of us need to know who we are talking about when we read research data. Objective reality has an essential role for some of us. Me, for one. Quote:
Yep, (some) people within the LGBTQ community have played with definitions, put spin on them, created entirely new vernaculars, neologisms.... This is, I believe, what has led to the current BV controversy. This word play has not served all of us equally well. They who presume to name, presume to own. All this presuming has led to the disenfranchisement of female identified butches, lesbian women and Feminists in many quarters. It's been incremental, but it's been profound. Just the other night, I went to bed a butch and woke up "masculine of center". :| So, I'm keeping it simple. I'm sticking to the English dictionary and my HERitage as a lesbian/butch//Feminist. Other people can do what they want, but they cannot force or intimidate me into going along with it. Quote:
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My wish to rekindle lesbian pride sans the qualifiers is multifold. Part is feeling invisible as a woman and a lesbian. Part is feeling like a guest in my community as a butch. Part is feeling woman and lesbian have somehow become passe and are being phased out in the scheme of things. My real life world is a world of lesbian women. I dont even know if there is a trans community/group here. I remember as a young woman how invigorated and validated I felt when I found the lesbian and feminist communities. I remember how proud I was to be part of the new trailblazers that would usher in a new era of creativity, development, and activism for women and lesbians. I remember soaking up every bit of information I could get my hands on, attending all the lectures, the events etc. I hadnt felt anything like it before or since. Lately, I have been looking on the net for "lesbian" web sites or even sites that may be of interest to "lesbians". I wasnt looking for the old stuff. I was looking for the new stuff for the generations that came after us. It has been a disappointing search thus far. I am finding many women run, lesbian in the title web sites. I was surprised to see a membership of females and males - I expect it in butch-femme but not general sites. I see many stories on beefing up (no pun intended) definitions across a wide spectrum, I see some definate blurring and almost interchangability in gender and orientation, much on relationships, fashion or lack there of, a fair amount on trans, a lot of masculine of center, a lot on variations of femme stuff ( the right words for this escapes me), a bunch on how to get laid (bookmarked those in case anyone is interested). I didnt see anything on lesbian identity sans qualifiers, little on feminism, little on herstory. There might be more of what I am looking for on FB but the few times I ventured there it seemed hard to navigate and pretty darn boring. Even when chatting in real life with youngins today, they can parrot much on womens studies but it seems to be an academic exercise rather than a part of their history or their identities. They take so much for granted that we old farts had to fight for. They have so much freedom to explore and so many more options/choices than were available back in my day. Yet they seem so unconnected to it. At 55, I am too tired to be an activist anymore. I cant stay up late enough for the meetings. :jester: So who's watching the store? |
My gender is Femme my assigned sex is Female I can also identify with woman and embrace my occasional masculinity. Physiology reports will never change that for "me" since I don't buy into the binary construct of gender. :)
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I'm one of the ones watching the store. I promise.
The community as a whole is so fractured in the younger generations because identities as a whole have become passe. Nobody wants to use identifiers, they believe in fluidity and rage against a system of names and notations and labels. I ran a campus LGBT organization for two years and it was the hardest thing I'd ever done in my life. Everyone is so locked in to what THEY support and what they believe that they don't take the time to look and see how we are all still fighting for basic rights and need to support each other. Instead it devolves into a "why should i fight for your cause when MY cause is more important to ME". I admit, I am one of those who minored in women's studies and can parrot herstory with the best of them, but I'm also trying very hard to learn everything I can from the pioneers. Two of my professors have been fighting most of their lives for tenured positions, and refusing to closet their lesbian identities often at the expense of their job security. One is butch, the other femme, although I doubt she's appreciate being described as such. Those two women taught me more about pride, activism, and the necessity of action than any book ever could. Quote:
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It took me a while before using the word lesbian to describe my sexual orientation... usually I was using the word homosexual...
For a while now, I see that the word lesbian is not only a matter of sexual orientation but an identity and it is defined differently depending on the cultural (country of origin) context and is also a question of generation. I was surprised to read an article in Fugues (a LGBT magazine from Montréal) that many young gay women (in their teens and early 20's) found that the word "lesbienne est vieillot et représente une image de femmes démodées" which means that the word is "old" and represents the image of "outdated" women (not modern, ancient, ect...). source: http://www.fugues.com/main.cfm?l=fr&...rticle_ID=1251 But when I speak to young hetersexual women and men, for them the word lesbian invokes: a woman who is romantically and physically involved with another woman (which by the way is how I see myself!) So I suppose I have to use different words when addressing different crowds! End of my rant |
cross posted
I will cross post this to a couple other threads.
Lesbian Connection, aka LC, is a magazine I have superscribed to for years. It arrives quarterly in my mailbox in an indiscreet manila envelope! It is a quick read with only 50 pages. They are reprinting the series "Dykes to Watch out For" The subscription fee is sliding scale free to anyone world wide and $42 for those that can afford it. Donations and gift subscriptions are appreciated! I am not on the staff, I am just worried that without support, this little rag will vanish as has the woman's bookstores that use to be. Elsie Publishing EPI PO Box 811 East Lansing, Mi 48826 (517)371-5257 (M-F) noon- 6pm ET elsiepub@aol.com www.LConline.org |
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THANK YOU!!! :) This is a great link. :) |
Lesbian Links?
I don't know if it is appropriate to post this here, but just in case it is, I will do my best to do a good job representing.
I am on a very small staff of individuals who write for a lesbian blog. it started off as a "A light-hearted lesbian and women's issues blog and community geared toward twenty-somethings" but since then we've grown to include an audience of all ages. I mostly write angry feminist articles, but the girls have been champs posting coming out stories and the like. I think it's worth the read for entertainment, and sometimes it can even make you think a little. At the moment we are trying to raise money to give to the "Because I Am A Girl" project through Plan International, which goes to help rebuild the lives of girls rescued from the sex trafficking industry in India. I think it's one of our more noble undertakings. The blog is here: ToughxCookies and here is the link to our "Causes" page. I hope that these links will help show how the younger generation handles lesbian pride, and maybe give a bit of insight into how very differently we all view the world around us. If this isn't the right place to post this, I would appreciate any guidance about where I should move this to. Thanks! |
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Andy, if "Reclaiming Lesbian Pride" is not the right place for your post-I honestly don't know where it would be! Absolutely worthy undertaking! Our young femmes and butches are exactly the right place to ensure the survival of our Lesbian Communities. I will check it out and thank you! Anya |
I've come to recognize that my online and earthly worlds do not coincide very often. Individuals and their identities are much more complex than their labels. It doesn't matter if I agree with someone's definitions, as long as they don't impose their views on me.
I'm a lesbian. That is my chief identity as far as describing who attracts me, who I love, and how I view the world. Of course, I have other identities, but they are definitely influenced by my self-view as a lesbian. For me, there is a historical and political perspective that is the context for who I am as a partner, a mother, and a worker. Coming to the point of self-understanding, self-acceptance, and a level of comfort has truly been a challenge. I won't play "your challenges have been greater than mine" game. My challenges have been representative of both the women's community at large, and what the community faced through the 70's and forward, as well as of my own struggles with family and personally. All are valid, and all have paved the way for the triumphs and challenges faced by the next generation. When I first discovered a butch-femme online community, I was told that I was "a lesbian" not "a femme" so I didn't really belong. I do belong. I am a woman who loves butch women. I don't consider it a label, I consider it a description. Women in my community hate the idea of butch or femme, equating it with role playing or something put on. They don't understand that there is a range of self-expression just as there is a range of personal preferences. As a more feminine woman, I have been told I'm not someone's type more than once. If they can have preferences, so can I. |
Still in shock.
Ok the company I work for is zero tolerence for any kind of harrassment/bashing. It's a huge company with literally thousands of employees across the nation. Very diverse to say the least. So some co-workers (family) and I were having lunch. It just seems that family naturally gravitates to me which is wonderful for me. Anyhow, one of the young uns can't be more than 21 looks at me and asked just so matter of factly..And how do you identify? I'm sure I had that confuzzled look:blink: I returned the question to her..although she was boi-ish looking I was curious..with Kobi's thread in mind..she stalled for a second and proudly stated she was andro. I said ok..she asked again how I ID. I said I'm a lesbian. She chuckled and said she figured that much out but what kind. I said female lesbian. She looked to be confuzzled..the older lesbians sitting at the table were giggling because they "got" it..the young un still confuzzled. I asked patiently..do you know what a lesbian is? The young un said well yes..it's a woman who likes women. I said yes thats part of the definition. Then one of the older lesbians jumped upon her soap box and went into a 15 minute lecture of what a lesbian truly is (in her opinion)..the poor young un seemed even more confused. I asked her if she had any questions..she said still looking :blink: Umm no not right now. I said well feel free to ask all you need to but know that each lesbian/gay/queer you ask that question to you are most likely to get a different answer. Shaking her head she mumbled something about having so much to learn..I smiled patted her hand and said yep and I'm more than double your age and am still learning each day. Just thought I'd share this little story. Kind of an insight to how one young un thinks.
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I've never been one to get involved in the politics of it all. I never used to "identify" myself until I started to get more involved online. As far as identifying, I never used to feel I had to. I find that when you become more involved in specifically identifying yourself and who you are, the more you seem to have to defend it - and I have never felt a need to explain myself. I am who I am, and that person changes every day in various ways ... yet, one aspect of the many things I am is a woman who loves a woman. And with that, you can call it whatever you want. I call it my bliss.
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Sometimes I wonder if all the words we use to define our identities are a necessity or just a marketing strategy gone wonkie. It might be kind of cool to have a job as an "identity consultant" or an "identity strategist" or maybe an "identity reconfiguration specialist". :blink: I was kidding but now that I think about, there may be some possibilities here. |
I am a lesbian!
I have lived through many twists and turns in my life to accept my sexual orientation. Women, in all shapes and sizes turn me on.
Femmes turn on the nuturing, connecting, sharing, laughing, common bonds, sisterhood; part of me. I can easily chat with lesbian femmes and feel totally comfortable with them. Femme is my gender identity. I am sexually attracted to female, lesbian butches. They just do it for me. When I see or meet a butch lesbian and all that ability I have with my femme lesbian sisters, goes right out the window. My heart begins to pound, my stomach goes into knots, my mind goes blank and I am as though I have been struck as mute. I am sure I have blown it many times by appearing as though I am an idiot. The sexual charge for me is so great, it overpowers my ability to think, talk or flirt. How am I with bio men? Just like with my femme sisters as far as ease and comfort. Why? They hold zero sexual attraction for me. I am a lesbian femme. |
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Can I put my office inside the bakery? And do you plan on making those twisted cruellers at your bakery? I miss those. |
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Food for thought.
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But some of us, not necessarily all of us, recognize the backward motion that is taking place in the community which HAS RESULTED IN A LOSS OF OUR LESBIAN PRIDE and HERITAGE. But, I get it. This parsing of terms is a drag. Is it ever ! ! ! ! However, one must go where the problem lies; at least part of the problem. Reassigning meaning to words lesbians identify with effects and changes how we imagine ourselves. Language matters. There are those within the community who know this and have been studiously chip, chip, chipping away at language while the rest of us have been building a tent. When 1 + 1 stops equaling 2, and 1 + 2 starts equaling 4, we're not communicating. And when someone says: Hey, we're not communicating, and another person says: Hush up, you're wrecking the tent, kumbaya. That's anti-communication - i.e. a subtle form of censorship. I don't know how to reclaim pride, build a tent and listen to the death knells of my identifiers all at once. I can cede space; I will not cede my identity. But, I get it. The mechanics of communication are boring, even anxiety provoking. It's so much easier to say: "Let's get along, shall we?", as we sidestep certain things. Let's not, then, do a Chicken Little when we finally notice that the meaning of lesbianism/Womanism/Feminism is fadding into obscurity. Otherwise, what's the need for Reclaiming Lesbian Pride? Kobi, you and I are on the same page about most things. Where we may diverge is about how to reclaim lesbian pride while walking around a linguistic elephant in the room, in a thread about reclaiming pride. There is clutter underfoot - fractured words, recalcitrant nouns, spurious adjectives.... I don't know how to have this conversation, balanced on one toe, while meaning is drained from the very words we use to define ourselves, even as we speak. Quote:
But, I do have a question.... Who's "voice" are we speaking in? Ours, or those who do not ID as lesbian women? If your post was directed at those who would recalculate our language for us, kumbaya. I got your back. |
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did someone call for a linguist? (yeh, yeh, I know, it's not the kind of input you want.) |
Eh, I got up my nerve to provide this linguistic perspective on things. I realize that pronouns are not the immediate issue, but it may point a path toward a different way of looking at identifiers. Namely, pinpointing exactly what it is we want to identify.
Imposing change on language is not usually a very successful endeavor--and yet has potential for creating societal conflicts out of proportion to the desired effects. George Orwell created an example that showed us some of the myriad problems that can result. There is, however, a natural language shift in English right now to neutralize gender in singular 3rd person pronouns. This is the use, in the vernacular, of they, them, to signify the singular as well as the plural. These forms are making their way into casual writing already. This is a trend that is not likely to desist. I propose that the use of they/them accomplishes more political equalization than adding invented sets of pronouns to the paradigm. Example: use hy/hys/hym and we presume we know both your sex and your gender. Whereas, they is neutral. Just as the first and second person pronouns do not distinguish, neither would the third person then. This kind of balancing shift in a paradigm makes it likely to "take hold." It is just a matter of time. Actually, if I should move this somewhere where it's more applicable, please let me know where that is. |
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Chazz, We think so much alike. It feels good to be on the same page as someone else. The voice I am speaking with is the woman, lesbian, feminist voice. It is who I am and what I represent in this world. Reclaiming lesbian pride, to me, is about being willing to stand up and be counted as a woman, as a woman who loves other women, as a woman who partners with other women, and as a woman for whom feminism and lesbianism, the unabridged version, is their guide. Reclaiming lesbian pride, to me, is about not being willing to compromise the language of your heritage or its unique meaning. It is about claiming it, owning it, speaking up for it, defending it, and taking back the power and control surrounding it. I would love this thread to be about those things. It would disappoint me if it turned into a debate about linguistics per se. This, to me, is not about linguistics. It is about what is behind the language and that, to me, is the crux of the matter. Is kumbaya yes? |
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Very simply: Lesbian pride for me is to stand up everywhere I need to and say, "Yes, I am a woman-identified, woman-loving, feminist lesbian. No equivocating, no minimizing, no qualifying". I have gone to hell and back to get to this place in my life. I am proud to have survived this journey. Many times I did not feel I would survive it. My family cast me out and for 15 years none of them would speak to me because I stood up and proudly stated: "I am a lesbian. I will always fall in love with, make love with, live my intimate life with other lesbian women". (Maybe one qualifier: I will always fall in love & make love with butch lesbian women). |
Curious
I have a question.... Where do lesbians who date all over the gender map go? What if one is a lesbian that's open to dating anyone in the queer spectrum? What happens to lesbians who've been with men? Sometimes Kobi I would of loved to claim lesbian but was told no, you're kinky, have kids with a man, to much make up, yada yada. So I claimed dyke, where can other lesbians that don't fit your view of lesbian go? Where do they go to claim their pride? :) (f)
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i am too tired to make sense. But i will try.
Whenever someone talks about defending an identity, they are in deep water. Basically, it's a battle already lost (to mix my metaphors). Think of people in France who are fighting for a French identity that does not include women wearing the niqab. Or again the French trying to protect the purity of their language and culture. Did that work? No. It never works. Problems with that mode of discourse: 1) You are framing it as a conflict rather than a change or evolution. You are creating two sides when there may be many or none. 2) It tends to have an agenda that is in part reactionary. France's is an anti-immigrant racism lurking behind that pride in French culture. Here? Who knows? Probably some transphobia. 3) It never works. i am proud to be a lesbian, but my version of lesbian, which is pretty mainstream for my age-group (yes, i listened to Meg Christian), wasn't everybody's then, and it's not many people's now. You can't have an official version of an identity. And an effect of defending and reclaiming IS expressing some typical or baseline set of traits that one is defending. YAY for Berkies may mean Manolos are not the footwear of the lesbian elite. I's dangerous. i have seen that with "femme." It's going on with "butch" all over. We can't look at it as reclaiming and defending without becoming reactionary. It's inevitable. My suggestion is that we show up as we are and love ourselves. If it's a political setting with a specific goal, then politicize the debate. But be careful about how we define ourselves. There are lesbians here who aren't "women loving women." They are living with and loving men. They are lesbians. I myself feel liberated by that. It means there is more room for me to breathe. It means i have new sisters and brothers. |
I celebrate my Lesbian Pride and my Lesbian Heritage.
There is, nor was there ever anything for me to reclaim. I never gave it UP! Even when The Lesbians called me a traitor for marrying my best friend who happened to be a gay man and attempted to throw me out of the "Club." It is quite simple for me... As a Lesbian who LOVES Masculine Butches and only dates Masculine Butches -- I am a Lesbian. If I were to get in an accident tomorrow and unable to move my body or feel sensation - Never again to be touched or touch another. Or if I were to choose to never date again. I would still be a Lesbian! Who you fuck - Who you play with - Who you date - Who you associate with... Has nothing to do with personal identity. I am Julie I am a Lesbian I am a Femme I am a Woman I am a Mother I am a Daughter I am a Partner I am a Friend None of the above descriptors can ever be taken away -- And again... For me. Nothing to reclaim. I came out in 1979 as a Lesbian and I will die a Lesbian! In all honesty, I am sick and tired of people placing constraints on ones identity. You can't be a lesbian - your hair is too long. You can't be a lesbian, you have long nails. You can't be a lesbian, you dress like a man. You can't be a lesbian, you are out of a 50's housewife movie. Who says? Julie |
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I am also of the Meg generation and have no problem admitting that. I guess we all can have a different definition of the same word but I would not have been disowned by my family if I had brought home a man. My parents screamed lesbian at me as though it were a filthy, ugly word and they seemed to know what a lesbian was. Re: children. I married at 18 and 2 babies by the time I was 21. I could not admit to myself I was gay until my mid-20's. Many women come out in later life and live with women the rest of their days. The whole trans issue confuses me. The new gender spectrum confuses me. It was not a part of my world until the planet. I may not understand it but I would defend to the end anyone's right to live their life their way. Not understanding is not the same as transphobia! The only phobia I have in my life is claustrophobia. My definition of lesbian is as I see it for myself as I posted it and I believe that I have the the right to call it as I see it for myself in a specifically lesbian thread, or don't I? Did that change too? I have stated before and will again: I always do my best to make "I" statements when I post. |
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I know you do not understand the trans issue... I remember once upon a time, not understanding it either. Though, I was much younger than I am now. I am glad you are here now at the Planet and are learning about our very diverse queer community here. I have never dated a male identified butch. I have always dated Female Identified Butches. I cannot possibly honestly say, that I would not (if my circumstances were different). And if I did, I would be devastated to learn, that my community shunned me. It would not change the fact, that I am a Lesbian loving a M/I butch. Julie |
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Your analysis here bears directly on the issues raised by the shifting pronoun paradigm, too. |
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I don't get this either. We seem to be rendering the word lesbian meaningless. |
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I am so sorry you find our history to be so meaningless. |
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No, sorry, I meant that I "truly do not understand the definition of a lesbian if one is in a love, sexual relationship with a man." (from the part of Anya's post that I quoted) If a woman is in a loving and sexual relationship with a man, then in what sense is she a lesbian? |
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The women that I have known who have dated men who defined as lesbians, dated women exclusively at one point (which was also the point when they first took on the identity of lesbian). It became their identity on many levels and they still identify with those many other levels even if they are currently dating a man. In this community is it not completely unusual. Hope this helps, tapu. |
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One cannot argue with the soul of another human being. Being a Lesbian is not sexual. That's what the right wing says. I hope people in our community are not saying or implying the same thing. If you were never able to be touched or touch another female bodied person again, in an intimate manner - Would you stop being a lesbian? If you were never to love another woman again - Would you stop being a lesbian? |
But isn't that the meaning of bisexual?
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The possibilities are endless. I claim lesbian and dyke in addition to being a butch woman. I have dated femmes that were lesbians. However I have also dated femmes who did not claim lesbian (they claimed bisexual, queer or gay). Also some of the femmes I have dated have also dated men, FTMs, male identified butches, etc- some were lesbians, some weren't. The women I have dated have or had their own identities before dating me and continue to do so. The fact that they are dating a butch lesbian doesn't change their identity.
So you can also have a woman to woman relationship where one or both women are not lesbians. |
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