|
Quote:
|
Quote:
Students at Walter State in East Tennessee are likely to have a different experience than universities in NYC or San Francisco. Still, I have to say that Butch and Femme as IDs have only been popular for maybe 3 years since the 70's. Has that detered me? Nah. I still love BullDykes. and Chocolate :chocolate: |
Butch and Femme aren't going anywhere. They started around the 1940s, and although they had to shift out of sight during the feminist movement, they certainly didn't go away. We've got young members on this site and the other who embrace butch and femme. As time goes on we are developing more gender descriptors, so maybe less folks are ascribing to butch or femme, but they certainly aren't going away. Mark my words...
|
This is a fascinating discussion.
For me, I use words that suit me. I always try to honor what another person wants to be called. I think G pointed it out best about his experiences in different groups--and how that fits him depending on where he is. Makes me think of Albert from the Birdcage when he says, "I never know where we are until I hear our name pronounced." For really personal reasons, I have not identified as a lesbian for several years. In fact, it makes me downright uncomfortable "in house" but that is how folks know me outside of the queer community. To them (mostly straight) calling me queer or a dyke bothers them. So to them, I'm a lesbian. I think the point that youth creates our language has legs but I also know that language changes, evolves, twists back on itself. Are good things still "phat" and "sick" or are they "swell" and "keen"? Why do we need alternative words for Butch and Femme unless someone is uncomfortable or perhaps embarrassed by the appellation? I totally get Stud as a term but Aggressive makes me feel a bit uneasy simply because of how I use that word. And, as a few have pointed out...is it only Butch that is getting refined/redefined?:mohawk: |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Regardless of what was said elsewhere, this is a compelling thread here. |
As SF has said early on, I just want to add my :2cents: and say a big "Thank You" to Selly for sticking her neck out and jumping into this conversation.
I hold You way up for that, Selly, and commend You. If I'm putting words in Your mouth here, Sel, correct me, please, ;) but I don't think ~ as even this discussion is evolving ~ she is pointing to individuals and telling us we can't use words which are comfortable to us......perhaps this is her observation within the group of folks with whom she is most involved....or perhaps what's hip (sorry...that's a 60's word which has evolved, I beleve ;) )in today's Youth Culture. I used to refer to my dear, late Father as 'being set in his ways'.....I guess some of us are, too......that can be ok. :bunchflowers: |
I'm confused as well. Is this discussion in reference to Q's video? If so I didn't see anything about being antiquated. Something else in particular? The concept in general?
Just wondering, cuz I loved the video and I am not sure I am understanding this conversation. |
Quote:
Ok, I used "antiquated" as a way to parse the term "OLD" into what I was feeling was being said. I should have been more clear. My bad. The verbatim, word-for-word was "Old Terms". and just as a sidenote: whether you were talking to me or not about something being "ignored", I have been up since 6am cleaning house and have been on and off of this site all day answering emails, reported posts, and private messages, so if something is asked or said and I dont respond or reply, its prrrrooooobbbbbaabbbbblllyyyy because I just didnt see it. |
Quote:
Bulldog, this is the OP, and I'm not seeing anywhere that there is a video reference here. Only until Isadora's post (#4) was there any mention of a video. I didn't feel as though this thread was difficult to follow at all. It's a calm, non~drama~filled civil conversation. |
Quote:
And I got it, too, that, when You put the term in "quotes", that COULD have been interpreted as Your word...... |
I'm just trying to follow the conversation.
|
The holiday cheer must just be overwhelming folks today :hangloose:
I just wanted to say too that when I read the thread over there about "old terms in a new era", I was hearing the "old" part in conjunction with "new era" as in, "out with the old, in with the new" or "old-fashioned" or "outdated" (which is the definition of "antiquated"). It's my read of it, I own it :) |
Quote:
|
Quote:
No, no....I think we all did.....and like all good and wonderful things, it has evolved. :D |
Quote:
|
I JUST learned about the term femme last year and that I was one. Luckily I am in my 40s so I am ok with not being part of the hip youth culture of today. I find that I am antiquated in many ways. I'm ok with that.
|
Quote:
I ma not big on trashing through false inference. |
Quote:
I presume BF.com That was not what was said, on BF.com, using that word or any other word I have no issue with some general Thread, discussing whether or not Butch & Femme, are antiquated Terms, though why one would think they were, I don't know. I do object to trashing of and falsely representing, the "other" site. Call me old fashioned and antiquated, but I object to falsehoods. |
Quote:
|
can someone put into laymans terms what antiquated means so I can understand, when I looked it up it confused me, I ain't the smartest ya know!!!!
|
Quote:
|
I haven't watched the video.
I read "old terms" as out of date, antiquated and well, old. I guess perception is very individualized and it was my assumption that this was a *new/different* conversation based on an individuals perception. |
Quote:
I honestly cannot understand why you would insist that I am intentionally "trashing" or "falsely representing" a thread on the other site when I have clearly explained that my read of those terms translated to what I wrote. I was going to ask if you missed my posts where I explained myself but it seems that you didnt, this gives me even more pause because you are still insisting that I am trashing by falsely representing here? I havent heard "Liar, Liar, pants on fire" in a while but I read it reallllll well. Just a refresher: When I read the title of the thread "Old Terms in a New Age", I heard "old" juxtaposed with "new age" as in "outdated", "antiquated". I promise you there was no nefarious intent when I parsed "old" into "antiquated" when I am talking about this issue. I asked a question. That is not trashing a site or a thread, no matter how many times its said. This was my way of trying to have a new conversation that had nothing to do with the video that was posted there (however great it was!). I merely wanted people's read on how the terms Butch or Femme might be seen as antiquated/old and their thoughts on that. THAT was my thought process, nothing more. a |
Quote:
|
Quote:
I don't see them as old or outdated,just as terms we use to describe ourselves. There are the other variations of butch and femme, like Stone Butch, Stone Femme, etc but to me those are still adjectives. |
Yes, sorry Medusa for my initial confusion. I wasn't questioning your motives. To me this conversation is a very different topic than the video or other conversation, that was why I was initially confused. But totally get you used it as a jumping off point to start a conversation.
Also seems some confusion on the other site. Stud is not a new term used by a younger generation. It's been around for quite some time. Anyway, if anyone wants to see Q's video it is very cool. Here is the link to her site: http://q-roc.tv The video is at the top of page: Excuse Me Sir: Gender Identity To me the video is about Studs talking about breaking down gender stereotypes. EDIT: There is actually more than one video. The one I saw before was part 2 on Stereotypes. Part 3 is at top of page now. Anyway, cool beans more videos for me to watch. |
Quote:
It is also not a term specific to POC. Love the video! |
Quote:
Mister Bent, Your last statement is how I look at life. If it doesn't fit you, then please don't wear it or tell me that I shouldn't. This is not to disparage anyone's posts. Merely my rule of thumb. If there were a third gender identity that was as easy to use as the term 'butch', I would use it. Butch works for me for now. Kosmo |
Quote:
I wear my Femme handbag with much pride. Duchess |
*I* am going to post from my personal space and my personal take and the way I am in this world.. My femme gender presentation may fall under a new type of femme or a new sort of femme, it does not nor will it ever fall on the antiquated description of femme.. I won't ever be the one who wears the apron, does the high heels and make up at all times, nor is willing to not have a Dominant role in *my* relationship, let me add I do not define femme, as skirt wearing, cooking in the kitchen following 3 steps behind they butch... *I* know I am different than some femmes, not so different from others.. I am comfortable with the lack of dresses, domestication I have.. I like being in charge, I am extremely proud of who I am as a Femme Leather Daddy to downright giddy at the thought of my cock...
*This* is where I think that for me, I get put into a different box of femme or my gender is dismissed because I am not a feminine as others.. *I* personally do not buy to this ideal.. If we look back at the antiquated history of butch femme, you have to know the femme was the power, she was the one who worked, she was the one who gave a safe haven to her counterpart.. Butch.. Who could not like herself go as easily into the workforce and not stand blend in as much as their femme counterparts... *I* embrace femme, my gender but not by others definitions of it, not because of what I wear or who I am with.. I am femme without butch I am femme foremost... Queer Leather Femme Daddy, it may not *fit* into what others may define femme as, or claim that my kind of femme is certainly and will not fall upon old school standards.. I am ok with that... I am comfortable and know I have power, being the femme that I am... I hope this late night rant made sense |
late night response to a late night rant
There is no one right way to be Femme, whether it's an adjective or a noun... there's just no one right way.
I'll tell you, Snow, I have seen people that I absolutely adored as sister Femmes decide they absolutely must not actually BE Femmes because they were so dominant. I always wish that I could point to you as a Femme who is dominant when it happens... except that they don't know you at all so it wouldn't make a difference. *wry shrug* |
Selly , come back !
How fascinating is this !
Kind of like petri dish fascinating...No, I'm not being snarky, I really want to look at this. If Selly is 20-ish I'd wager she has her ear to the ground in her age group and social circles. And if Butch/Femme is no longer representative for a younger generation, the words very well may become a thing of the past, at least in her experience. I think its fascinating to know. It doesnt mean I'll be dropping my identity and I still use Butch/Femme as a jumping off point. But if the evolution of terms and identification have strayed away from Butch/Femme "labels" (floabw) then I wonder where our youth is headed ! And I'm not being contrite or when I say I'm excited to see a new generation embrace their identities in their own way. Isnt that how we evolve? |
Quote:
First, I do agree with Selly in that many young folks I come across (yes, I know I am 36 - youngish - but I know a fair amount of folks in their early 20's) use different terms; genderqueer, trans, fag, genderless... and use them in ways that may mean different things to me or others before me. I don't know that I or they would use the term, dead. But I hear less "butch" and "femme" in the ways I know them when I am around said folks. For instance, there are several young people I know who were born female and most times appear more masculine, but definitely embrace both the feminine and masculine parts of them...and self identify as trans or fag. We have discussed the terms "butch" and "femme" and they know them, but look at them in more of a historical perspective (and some because I use them and friends in my age group use them). They are less inclined to label themselves, want to be more fluid. This leads me to my next point, which is the evolution. Several months ago, a bunch of friends had a very deep discussion about the "elder" population of butches. There was alot of talk about the younger population not having access to or somehow missing a connection to have a mentor-like relationship from an "elder" butch. As if there was resistance to it? Disinterest? Or a lacking population? Disconnect? These are words we tossed around, not necessarily ones I chose. Is part of the reason that the younger generation does not identify with these terms because they don't have someone to lead the way for them, specifically (as in a close elder friend)? Or because as a society we are delving deeper into what gender/gender identity looks like? Or really because of the general evolution of human/sexuality/identities? These are just thoughts for the moment... forgive the rawness... |
I think Selly's original post and SassyLeo's post are both on point.
I've noticed this trend in Canada as well. But then, I'm of the opinion that "butch" and "femme" have *never* been terms that have been popular in the real-time queer connections that I've had over the years, and my travels and living situations have spanned across Canada in 3 major regional areas and of course, San Francisco. The only 'real time' community off the internet where there is an abundance of butches and femmes that I've ever participated in is in San Francisco. Who do we have to thank for that? Community organizers. (nodding in Toughy's direction)... I know there's a lot happening in NY as well. How? oh yeah... *community organizers* But apart from pockets of online communities and some real time community organizers in large urban areas, is "Butch" and "Femme" known or used terms? Frankly folks, I don't think I've *ever* lived (and lived as queer) where Butch and Femme were actually "popular" terms. They are however, I believe: timeless A 20-something transman when I asked his observations about the youth culture, he acknowledged that many many MANY have just sorta honed in on 'genderqueer' or 'queer' (he almost made it sound the same - should note that).... and he laughingly said.. "it kinda poses an interesting dilemma for t-guys" it just might. And call me crazy, but a part of me looks at "genderqueer" and thinks "oh, that's kinda like being andro" ....only 'cooler' ... more 'updated' words words words words... I dunno, I'm tired. when I get fed up with nomenclature discussion, I just sometimes sit back and think "now, how would I explain THAT to my relatives in Europe?" Another question I have... did every 'lesbian' call themselves a 'lesbian' from the dawning of the english language? By all accounts, if you look at the fact that the english language is what.... 1000 years old (give or take), for the last 1000 years, have we been hearing the term 'lesbian' to describe two women in love? From where I'm sitting, seems to me if we look at it that way, "lesbian" as a term is brand spanking new... just some thoughts. Quote:
|
Quote:
As you your self keep saying, there was a false inference, the motivation is your business, I didn't presume one. 2- The point of using another site, as a jumping off point for a Thread, is where you lose me. There was no need. But if you absolutely had to then an actual reading of the opening post, beyond the Title, seems a must do , in my book. If you had done so, then no mix up of words, juxtopositioning one for the other, would have occurred because the actual subject had nothing to do with either word. 3- Personally, I have always thought it a good rule, to not bring in outside sites. Kind of like talking about someone who isn't there. Not a good idea You have a nice site here, wouldn't it be cool, if it survived on its own merit, without constant references to "other' sites. As the owner, you set the standard. Like it o r not, that's how it goes... |
Quote:
1. You insist my intent by saying that I am "trashing" another site. If you werent insisting that I had a nefarious intent, you would have simply said that I had "referred" to another site. 2. *YOU* dont see a need for it, *I* do. And here again, I dont *have* to do anything as in "must do" because again, my read was my own, my read of the title of the thread and subsequent posts was the jumping off point. 3. Not bringing in outside sites is all well and good but its kinda difficult when we *share* a membership and a community. If we cant ever discuss anything that has ever been discussed on another site then that leaves us with our thumb up our asses considering that there are...oh, I dunno...a BAZILLION threads elsewhere. Again, there seems to be an issue for you with seeing intent that simply *isnt* there. That's your issue, not mine. And yes, *we* do have a nice site here. A great one actually. Regardless of what you see happening here, this site IS surviving on its own merit, hence over 400 members in less than a month. I dont know where you are seeing "constant" references to another site (but then again, if you are looking for something you might be super myopic about it), but the fact of reality is that there WILL be referenced conversations here. I have no problem with it. Im not going to start policing people, what they say, or where they get their ideas for conversation. Im also not going to give any more energy to what I feel has personal overtones for you. It's a waste of my time, and yours. And now, since you "reminded" me that I must "set the standard" as the owner of this site, Im going to do just that and stop giving energy to this circular conversation. |
Sure, and sometimes... all we have are first impressions to go on.
And sometime it's just the delivery. As for sharing of information on terms and definitions... I scraped around the internet ALL night to get some direction on some coding I had to do on a spreadsheet, and went to at least 3 different sites to get some instruction. Sometimes references matter, sometimes subject material is going to repeat itself on another site. Maybe not completely analogous to this situation, but I know how I *felt* when I first saw the phrase 'old terms' and I didn't particularly like how it felt for me. Finally... are refugees from trouble countries forbidden to talk of their experiences in the new country? ...just some drive by thoughts from one of those ugly posters who skims too much for my own good, and tends to rely on titles to capture my interest. |
Hmmm...
Are they antiquated terms? hmm .. I don't know. But I also don't see where those terms will be disappearing any time soon either. But then again, I am not some 20-year old, and tend to hold on to terms that might be a bit antiquated to begin with. I'm not a politically-correct ID junkie either. I kind of believe in "be who you are", and in my mind, won't slap any particular label on anyone. They (labels) are, and always have been, IMO, too general and vague for the uniqueness of every individual. On the flip side of that - I would not be dismissive to their own label/ID/what-have-you either. On a personal standpoint, I only label my myself to the most basic degree. If anyone wants to know WHO I am, well, they'll soon find that the label itself doesn't "be all to end all". |
know your history or you will be doomed to repeat it
I think it's perfectly natural to talk about a lot of things here that took place or are taking place on the hyphen site (how I think of b-f.com). It's where we're all from, right? Maybe there are a few people who found this planet site on a google search but I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of members of this new site share a history and relationships that didn't just start here. I welcome the rules of this site. It's freeing and healthy in my opinion to be able to talk about where we're from and in many cases why we left. I like PapaC's analogy of immigrants, or refugees.
I'm sure some people have strong connections to the hypen site and feel loyalty to it, and/or to its owner. However, I'm not one of those people. Not being allowed to talk about a place that we all came from or still belong to just furthers the things that I didn't like about that other site, especially recently. The thread on the hyphen site about butch and femme possibly being old and outdated terms was just one more thing that made me feel "less than." I completely agree that communities need to find ways to be more welcoming and accessible. But, and this is a big one, I don't think that the way to court new members is by devaluing the contributions and identities of the current members. My 19 year old niece has a lot of different terms for things than I do. When I like something I say it's cool. When she likes something it's "sick." We both know we're talking about the same emotion, but we are using different words to describe it. Younger people and others with different reference points, such as urban people, and/or poc use a lot of different, new terms. I need to know what those terms mean so that I'm able to communicate effectively, but those terms don't change who I am. How would losing myself or denying my identity and worth really be a good thing for any community? I'm a butch and that's not going to change. It's the responsibility of all people, from all points of reference to seek out and learn about how others feel and identify. It's not a one way street in either direction. Unn/the 40+ year old butch from CT |
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:58 PM. |
ButchFemmePlanet.com
All information copyright of BFP 2018