Sorry for the Derail, but ~ A mindless ramble that just scrolled through the ticker in mah attic...
 

Thanks Mike, absolutely! It's great to see you again too.

Oh Dayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
 

Day, I don't mind dissing the way my parents were brought up, it's oppressive, depressing and so damn heteronormative that it took years for them to even get the gay wasn't going away. Me dissing how they think things should be when it comes to gender doesn't take away my love for them or how I feel about them. I have come to a place in my life I don't placate to their bullshit, I am outspoken even with them it's very few the special pass they get.

:):bunchflowers:

I may not be able to define the masculine butch woman but I sure know her when I see and *feel* her-when I get that electric charge!

Conversely, the same with my femme sisters- minus the electric charge, of course:)

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Just for clarification... here's some of what *I* believe: You can be born biologically female and ID as male and deserve to be respected as such (with or without medical intervention) and vice versa You can be male or female (biologically or not) and be butch, or femme, or masculine or androgynous - or any other label that works for YOU, or REFUSE to be labeled - regardless of what anyone else thinks or assumes You can be butch and wear make-up, wear anything that you choose - ANYTHING and still be butch and be respected as such. You can be femme and wear jeans and steel toe boots and t-shirts, or ANYTHING else you choose and still be femme and respected as such. You can be/do YOU - any way YOU choose, and not have to pick a label - just be YOU. If you are TG and don't want to take hormones, and don't want to have your breasts removed, you are no less TG. I believe everyone has the right to ID however they choose and say THIS is who I am - and not have to justify their identity to anyone. Period.

Hear, hear, SelfMadeMan :hk13:

I don't think there's anything wrong with the organic state of masculinity, femininity or mascuninity etc., or acknowledging their existence. Just more with how we as humans sometimes think we are the gatekeepers of them, or project them in an unhealthy and outwardly harmful manner- assign them concretely to ones or others sex, gender or identity. Masculinity, femininity, like a baseball bat in your hands you can hit a ball out of the park with it... or hit yourself or someone else over the head with it... either way it's not the baseball bats fault.

On a personal note the thought of using the words Butch/Femme (or butchness/femmeness) to somehow "take the place" of masculinity/femininity (OP)? I myself have inward and some outwardly feminine attributes that do not alter or affect my masculine ones and it does not make me a Femme in any way... so I'm not a Femme nor is it "femme-ness" but I still cherish those attributes as much as my masculine ones, they are as strong, powerful and beautiful and I wouldn't wish to obscure them with another word or lose my ability to convey that in favor of anything else that doesn't mean (IMO) the same thing.

Hopefully conveyed the jist of what I'm trying to say, I know I confused the hell out of myself the first time I wrote it and had to make some hellish editing xD. Dunno *shrugs* I just think we leave ourselves even more open to stereotypical assumptions when we limit our language rather than expand it.

Peace

We Femmes & Butches got treated very poorly & disrespectfully, during the "Women's Liberation" time of second wave feminism, by those we knew as "political" lesbians. That is, those who chose to be lesbian as a political action/statement against the patriarchy. In their eyes, we Femmes & Butches were merely imitating the world of the dominant heterosexual culture. Butches were viewed as mimicking men, or "pretending" to be men. The relationship between Butches & Femmes was totally misunderstood. These "political" lesbians were completely ignorant regarding the erotic, sexual, & relational dynamic between Butches & Femmes. They were completely clueless about how the power intrinsic in such relationships between women, had less than zero to do with men & everything to do with a different way of being women.

I came out when the Butch-Femme community was still strong in San Francisco. It would be at least another year or so before much ruckus would be raised by the "political" lesbians about Butch & Femme. Second wave feminism has given us a lot, but the carry over from, what in my opinion was a form of homophobia, still seems to trouble us.

A dictionary definition of butch is this:

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butch A (traditionally) masculine man or woman, and especially a masculine lesbian. Often the "dominant" partner in a lesbian relationship, and especially of a butch/femme lesbian relationship.

Women being Butch, owning Butch, & claiming their own lesbian masculinity has less than zero to do with the masculinity of men, or of the dominant heterosexual culture. Rather it is a masculinity of women. It is male energy expressed through the female form, thus is entirely female, though male. As such, it bends gender, & to my way of thinking creates a way of being that is neither female or male, but both in one, i.e., Butch or Boi, or Stud, or AG, or any of the other terms currently in use to define it.

This is long, I realize, but I do want to close with some words on the subject of Butch by poet Judy Grahn from her book, "Another Mother Tongue".

:aslpeacelove:

I think everyone has a bit of both qualities in them.

I can totally relate to this, Anya.....

recently a special someone (butch) told me that I was electrifying to them....which they have the same effect on me.

That... electrifying exchange of power between an butch and a femme.... it's very real.

That electrifying energy is what I refer to as Alpha energy. It is a self confidence that can momentarily cause people in a room to look towards the door they're walking in.

Sometimes, their aura seems as big as an elephant. It spreads out, filling space. Is this the energy you're writing of?

My Partner is a Butch with this type of aura.

Yep, no two ways about it. That butch-femme energy is amazing and very VERY distinct.

I am loving all these bumped gender threads!

Masculinity competition between butches/FTM
 

I have a question for the butches mostly but anyone is willing to comment if you have feedback. I am a FTM myself who obviously used to identify as butch. One thing I noticed was that I would always feel this masculinity competition between me and another butch I was around. I am wondering if this is something true butches feel as well or is this a characteristic of FTMs? Thoughts? I felt like for myself, I don’t experience that feeling anymore around butches but only usually other FTms or cis males. I am not usually an uber competitive person so it’s an odd concept for me. I don’t mean to offend anyone it is just something that I have noticed and wondered but never asked anyone.

I don't think i'm mimicking a man in any way or form.Personally I don't compete for a person's affection.A mature person already knows what they like and don't like in a partner..either they want a butch woman or not..maybe they like a butch FTM..or butch cis-male ect.I know I love femininity,been attracted to it since I was a little girl.I can spot it a mile away and when it comes my way,i wanna jump it's bones.Personally speaking for myself I don't display much femininity if any at all.The cis-men I usually go for have that tenderness that I associate with being feminine.I don't have insecurities about my masculinity,i was born this way and I could not hide it even if I tried..btw,i've never tried.I love a femmes energy and I love a feminine persons energy,period.I had jealous boyfriends want to kick my ass before and what not..all I had to do was walk in a room and their girlfriend stared a minute too long and bam!,her man hates my guts.Even today, I still have to deter a jealous nature by keeping eye contact with the masculine male species of the two.*snort*

No I have never felt I was in any sort of masculinity competition with anyone - other butches, FTMs or cis males. My masculinity is my own and I don't feel the need to compete with anyone over it.

Imagine how boring the butch/femme community would be if we were all the same "level" of butch or femme. We come in many different flavors, and, to me, that is a wonderful thing. :bunchflowers:

I feel the exact same way with my butchness, I feel very very inadequate a big majority of the time.

Awww.. try no to worry about it dee, I'm sure your partner thinks you're just fine as you are! :-}

I don't feel any need to compete with anyone with regard to butchness or femmeness. I know full well that I can no longer carry off femme visually so well as I could thirty years ago, and I've stopped feeling freaked out about being mistaken for a guy occasionally if I'm not wearing a skirt (which is nearly always, these days). I can see why some folk nowadays suppose me to be a butch - walking boots, jeans, tank-top, and either a long warm waistcoat with deep pockets or a biker jacket. Yet I always carry a handbag, and have shoulder length hair, and tend to use a quick dash of foundation and some lippy every day. And vanilla perfume. My attitudes toward other women more closely resemble a butches, and yet I'm innately a wallflower (hey, I had years of simply being pretty and waiting to see who got lured in by my appearance! It worked!), though I've been working hard on trying to overcome that. But if anyone chides me for being a wussy butch or a not very femme femme, I'll simply laugh in their face.

I'm a (hopefully) fine example of me, and I'm only competing with myself to be the best me I can be.

Harking back to an earlier bit of this thread, I've been pondering the terms masculinity/femininity and butch/femme. I can't quite explain it properly yet, but I've a feeling that seeing butchness in women as being female masculinity is kinda backwards somehow. I'm just thinking aloud here, no offence to anyone is intended - but I'd say that masculinity is male butchness, just as femininity is female femmeness. So... butch and femme are the more fundamental, but when butchness is expressed by a male or femmeness by a female, it then fits the societal sterotype of masculinity/femininity respectively. I think. Does that make sense? I'd be particularly interested to know what any of the FTM gents here think on this.

I came to this thought whilst considering my former discomfort at being occasionally thought butch. I came to the conclusion that it's not the butchness I mind so such as the implication that that somehow involves masculinity (which, given my background, is anathema to me!). Which raises the question, of course, as to whether my personal feelings have warped my perception to the point of mangling the language simply to make myself feel more comfortable. I don't think so, but please do say if you think I'm nuts and have done just that!

For me personally, no I do not view my masculinity as male butchness. I do view male as a biological and not a gender term - some people do use it as both. I don't consider myself to be male - either as my gender or biological sex.

I am a masculine female - which for me is the essence of what butch is (other butches have their own definitions that are different than mine).

To me saying male butchness sounds like imitating male, when I view my female masculinity as being my own and not something I am getting from males. I may look somewhat male, act similar to males in some ways, my sexuality is very similar to males in some ways, etc., but I grew up female and have experienced the world as a lesbian/queer female, which to me is an entirely different experience. I move through the world now as a butch not a man. I am not offended at all, it just doesn't fit for me.

Interesting, thank you, BullDog! Although I think you may have misunderstood what I wastrying to say, as I emphatically do not see butch women as being male in the slightest. See, to me, saying 'masculine female' seems to imply imitating the male, and now I've come across, albeit very briefly, a few women on the butch spectrum, I'd say that they didn't come across as imitating males at all - they were undeniably butch though. So what I'm trying to get at is that I'm thinking that instead of defining butchness in terms of 'degree of masculinity' (which to me makes it seem as though butch women are aping men), it ought to be that butchness is a thing in and of itself, no masculinity required.

Instead, I would argue, when a woman exhibits butchness she is, quite simply being a butch woman - but when a man exhibits butchness we might think of them as 'a butch man', but more commonly we'd skip that thought and use the term 'masculine', which means 'pertaining to maleness',and that, I would argue, is inappropriate when talking of women. So I am arguing that masculinity is simply the stereotypical expression of butchness in men, because the stereotype, for society as a whole, is that butchness is most often associated with males. There is no word meaning 'the stereotypical expression of butchnesss in women', and I don't think there needs to be, either, because butch women are a minority expression of butchness in society as a whole, and therefore aren't stereotypical in society as a whole.

In short - men are butch in their way, women are butch in their way, and whilst there are similarities, the underlying difference in sex/gender identity makes a difference. No need to imply that butch women are appropriating masculinity or trying to be like men at all. Whereas doing things the other way around, by defining butchness in terms of masculinity, may be, I think, what perpetuates the myth that butch women are somehow trying to be men - which is, of course, utter rubbish.

Hi Esme nha Maire, Oh okay I think I did somewhat misunderstand you, although I didn't think you were saying butch women were male. Sorry I didn't get a lot of sleep, so I am probably not thinking real clearly.

I personally do see myself as a masculine female and my masculinity being distinct from male masculinity just through sheer life experience being different and being queer. But I also do agree masculinity can be a problematic term and our language tends to fail us when it comes to trying to describe and talk about gender. Thank you for your posts, I really enjoy them!

“I begin to imagine myself being the woman that a woman always wanted. That’s what I begin to eroticize. That’s what I begin to feel from my lover’s hands. I begin to fantasize myself becoming more and more female in order to comprehend and meet what I feel happening in her body. I don’t want her not to be female to me. Her need is female, but it’s butch because I am asking her to expose her desire through the movement of her hands on my body and I’ll respond. I want to give up power in response to her need. This can feel profoundly powerful and very unpassive.”
— Amber Hollibaugh, “What We’re Rollin Around in Bed With: Sexual Silences in Feminism: A Conversation Toward Ending Them” by Amber Hollibaugh and Cherríe Moraga, 1981

I was just reading this and I wanted to share it. To me, it speaks volumes about the distinctiveness of the b/f dynamic.

That's her experience and perhaps yours. I dare say it's a lot of femmes' experience, but there are femme tops and butch bottoms. There are also many butch femme couples whose sex does not include experiencing the butch partner's need as female.

Butch/Femme dynamic
 

I agree with Bulldog. Those who don't might want to read, "Female Masculinity" and then decide if it is male or female or both.

Judith Halberstam is the author

i believe i am at the point where labels, male, female, masculine, etc have only small meanings. I measure the person, consider their ideas and i do not see any good reason for splaying the flesh off and considering (the) why it is or (the) what it means to be this or that..it's enough for me that you are you and i love it...the mystery of how you became you is something we can savor with delightful rapport, whenever you are inspired to share it:tea:

Hi Martina,

Yes, I completely agree with you! I definitely appreciate the diversity of b/f dynamics and I grasp the complexity of gender, especially as it plays out in intimate relationships.

In fact, the quote I cited does not resonate with all my personal experiences. So I understand where you're coming from.

I just liked the quote and the author. :)

I'm just now parsing the previous posts on this thread and trying to formulate a cogent response. As always, there's a lot to chew on here! For now, though, I'm thinking about the idea of butch as a gender. Quite a few writers have conceptualized it this way (Bergman, Coyote, etc.) and many butches I've known have viewed their butchness in this way - not as mere presentation or expression, but as an innate part of their being. In any case, it's an interesting assertion. I wouldn't claim to know about being butch, since I'm at the very opposite end of the spectrum, but I do find it to be an interesting and potentially useful perspective.