I love that you said that about the balancing of energy because that is so key to me is finding that balance between my extreme feminine side their masculine side.

connecting in straight spaces
 

Sanee, thanks for this. I pass as straight...always. And I'm not really into rainbows or triangles so I'm only visible as queer in queer spaces, and even then only if I have my hand in the back pocket of a lovers carharts.

But I think there have to be some other indicators that other queer folk can pick up on, if they're looking. These are the first few that come to mind:

1. vintage styleyness
2. artsy/creative/alternative looks (stuff that clearly isn't from the mall)
3. really red lipstick
4. being overdressed
5. rejecting cisdudes (gently of course)

What do you all think? And what are some of your femme spotting tricks?

And, if i were to ever get up the courage to approach a stranger i was reasonably confident was FTM...how do you guys like to be hit on?

So far i've only ever handed boifolk a note with my phone number. And that's worked but it would be nice to actually connect in that moment rather than getting a text later.

My Gaydar is excellent!:D Even now that I'm not in gay clubs so much.

Recently, I was walking down my street (which is pretty gay so you'd expect to see a few lesbians) and a saw a woman. A pretty ordinary woman, long hair, handbag, clothes.. but my eyes grabbed her and said 'Look at that woman'. So I looked and wondered why I was looking, right up until she approached a masculine-looking woman and smiled a shy smile. 'Yay!', I thought 'I can still pick 'em!'.

I did watch for a few more moments just to make sure and yes, they were certainly not just friends.

..just wanted to brag

Why are these indicators of a femme?

I keep thinking
 

I gotta be real and say I own nothing vintage, I'm not artsy hell I can't draw a straight line and I'm not sure what over dressed is unless you mean layering...

These attributes describe my straightest friend. She also does Burlesque and is beautiful, mid-40s and has an amazing, much-adored and full, shapely ass (*And if you're in SF she'll wax your naughty bits!).

ANNNDDDDD here comes the lesson in gendernomics....*gets a pen and paper to see what the real femmes have to say.*

.....
 

Ahh see there is no what makes a Femme "real" we just "are" lipstick or no lipstick..:) (f)

hello Julien, nice to meet you!!

There are a lot of femmes like this. Femme theory used to talk about this as our type, as if we are more performative in our femininity than other women. i disagree that most femmes are like this. i certainly am not. i also disagree that femmes perform femininity in ways that are that different from some straight women. There are some awesome straight women who perform femininity in transgressive ways. Anyway, i know what you are talking about, and i agree it is based in some reality. But i resist the stereotype.

I'm clueless! LOL I don't know until I'm hit with a 2x4. As for approaching, please do and just say hi and talk about everyday things. Thank you!

Most femmes would ruffy but for femmes like me who look 100% straight it's not even easy to be approached or talked to by another butch let alone FTMs.

Great thread! I think this will bring awareness. . and I am agreeing with you. So why not let it be known you are interested if they are not sure about your interest? One will never know unless there is someone who initiates. My last g/f I was in a relationship with for 5 years is straight and she let it be known to me she was interested!

Call me old school but I like to be approached, not necessarily approach someone. It's part of my femininity I guess. Does make it hard but if I want something or someone bad enough I'll be more forward

It's not my job to "look femme" or roll around in a stereotype of femme to make myself more noticeable. This is femme invisibility at its finest when our community is too lazy to delve past the "too straight" stereotype to see femmes.

Imagine a world where butches and ftms had to wear indicators in order to be recognized.

Something I have learned is there are as many ways to be/look Femme as there are Femmes. You can't make assumptions based on something as superficial as how someone looks. You have to get to know her. It's in her energy and way of being in the world more than anything.

I hope that ButchEire comes back to clarify, but I really think that hy was being tongue in cheek while trying to be supportive of the OP who was sadly lamenting the fact that she struggles with finding a FTM who is interested in femmes. I personally didn't see the OP as being offended by it, rather she is just saying she wished she could find this type of FTM.

The OP indicated that she was talking about FTMs preferring other masculine defining people rather than femmes. She didn't say anything about about high femmes, or femmy femmes, or whatever...just "femmes women".

As an aside, I have never thought of what you describe as a "girly girl" as automatically being a "high maintenance femme" or one who spends a lot of money on her outside self or would expect me to spend that on her. Being on the extreme end of "feminine" (society's definition based on external presentation) doesn't equate to this. Women do their own nails, dye their own hair, etc (the accoutrements of "girly girl"). I am actually surprised by your statement, as I personally haven't heard other masculine identified people say this before?

I just wanted to highlight this post. I concur with all of it!

Yeah, I don't date butches or ftms that are concerned with their appearence for that reason exactly. They might just want my money.

Yes, I'm being sarcastic,
blush

This is a very interesting thread. Being my age, I pass as straight--and in the wider world out there it's nobody's business how I identify. But when I'm in this community, it is more difficult. I'm old school and a very, very late bloomer so a lot of this is new to me. I also prefer to be approached but I will mingle and make small talk in a group. In fact, I'm struggling today on whether to go to a couple events in the city tonight when I know absolutely no one and will go alone. It's a tough call.

Now, now that isn't always the case, but I can get where you are coming from. All that fluffin' n' carryin' on can be intimidating. haha I can see where one might be scared. Handbags and shoes and and and... can get expensive.

*disclaimer* I know there are varying degrees of femme-ness and some may not even like handbags or shoes or or or...

I am one of those varied degree femmes who is still viewed as girly. Which cheers me up and amuses me. So as long as my perceived maintenance isn't held against me it can be charming. But when the perceived maintenance cost is held against me without evidence I do get prickly and know to keep moving on.
:blueheels:

This is so true! I've never heard any masculine identifying person who professed to an attraction to Femme as concerned with the expense or 'maintenance' of presenting femme (in all of the social and historic manners of femme presentation)...

At the same time I hear a lot of talk on this subject of high maintenance/too girly and it feels both femme vs femme (competitive) and heteronormative--though you probably can't extract one from the other.

Thoughts?

Just sayin ................
 

Cost you too much $$ really??
I take care of myself just fine and cost no one $.
FYI I adore FTMS and I'm VERY femme and never seem to have problems finding them in hiding. Although I think many times they ASSume we are not interested in their handsome selves.
Again it's all ones perception.

Just my .02

Amen.....!

you rock......smiles (f)

I still lust ya
*Smirk's*

Could you say that second paragraph a different way? I am struggling with following you here...want to make sure I am reading you correctly.

If you will reread what I said ---I said I was not saying this to be nasty ----just bringing up another point of view.

Whenever i hear the term high maintenance to describe a women it is usually done with the intent to complain about them.

"She is sooo high maintenance"
"She is tooo high maintenance"
"She was so high maintenance she drained me" the guy was talking more emotionally than financially.


it puts value on women...


"i got myself a high maintenance woman. but she is worth it"
this conversation the guy was insinuating the women he was presently with was gonna cost him more money to be with than the last woman he was with.

honestly i am usually inclined to be the party pooper and say something when i hear that term used by butches, men, trans guys.

when i hear femmes use it to describe themselves i don't not feel inclined to say anything. not my place but it does make me wonder the need to create hierarchy.

Thinkin'
 

I find it odd that HM applies to Femmes, it's like Femme's are expected to look, walk around, function looking as if we just stepped off a magazine cover shoot..

Like you Heavenleahangel I on occasion "dress up" or on occasion I put on my war paint everyday, sometimes it's required others I do it cause I feel like it.

How come this particular descriptor isn't used on butches/guys/trans folk?

Why do we as Femme's continue to let others define us and set a hierarchy that should never exist certainly not from the mouths some guy/butch/trans person..


Stuff to think about...

I guess I have always separated out the terms/thought others separated out the terms, high femme from high maintenance.

High femme = society's definition of a very feminine woman in clothing and accessories (cost not connected to this)

I have regarded this term as being used in a negative way, a positive way, and a neutral way.

High maintenance = usually applied to women, but can also be applied to masculine people. Refers to them costing their partner a lot financially or emotionally. The person usually has a sense of entitlement regarding their "worth" or as being "deserving" of such attention and/or financial cost to others.

I have only seen this as being applied in a negative way.

------------

It really is facinating how we can assume people are working within the same definitions when communicating. That is why it is so important to define terms.

wow I learned something new about myself today, I am not high maintenance better yet I am a "high femme" and I like that way more.

:)

Hmm..
 

I have make up on my hair did an old sweat shir pj bottoms and flip flops..

Would this be considered "high femme"?

Why not just Femme cause that's wha I am.. High to me perpetuates hierarchy. There is NO hierarchy in Femme we just are..