well i'll say on my part that i shouldn't have used the word maleness. i don't even like it lol. i certainly didn't mean in any way that a butch is male. i just associated the two words together maleness/masculine. i can understand how some could be offended by either word. i don't have a male sex organ and i do not want a male sex organ. it would probably serve me well to just identify as a woman.

I'm sorry I have never seen a butch wear a dress and heels without it being a costume of some sort. Or they have to wear it for work or military uniform (if they still have to do that).

As far as what makes me butch is something that I feel. It just is. I don't feel comfortable being any other way.

I am feMALE
... I have ovaries and womb
I am a woMAN
... I have breast, I have nursed the baby born
I am MALE ID'ed transgender
... and such I will stay
I am masculine energy and desire...
... within a bio-female form

I am Butch.

To me it has to be how they ID because i do not always feel the energy. i don't. And sometimes (unfortunately), i don't get the mutual recognition and respect that is the most important thing to me. There is something about being recognized as a femme and having someone know what that means. They could be butch or femme. If they are butch, they may be a butch who prefers butches (as long as they don't dislike femmes), and i still feel that recognition, that being at home.

A butch recognizes me as a femme -- and honors that. And as a femme, i recognize who she is, and i honor that. That's the most important thing to me.

YES! I live for that feeling....being seen as I am. *Le sigh of contentment*

I think this is true, sometimes it does set up an undercurrent of competitiveness and even a hierarchy of butchness where the more you identify with male, the more “he” you are, the higher you ascend on the scale of butch. Often it feels that the masculinity a butch presents is being judged on its likeness or resemblance to what is traditionally considered male. I think that is the problem with trying to describe the essence of what is butch and what makes a butch a butch. It is not concrete or even clearly definable. It may have to do with energy resembling what is thought of as masculine but it is not male. Some butches may be male and/or consider themselves a man and some may be female and/or consider themselves a woman, but that is a personal trait and not the definition or the essence of a butch.

Unfortunately for me, I often take what people say innocently, non judgmentally, to describe themselves and what being butch is for them and use it to underscore for myself what is less than about my butchness. Thankfully, not so much anymore, but old habits die hard. I think this is connected to my lack of certain abilities and interests shared by most of my butch friends over the years.

I am not mechanically apt. I can’t build anything either. Certainly not from scratch but even if it comes in a box with directions it isn’t likely I will be able to put it together correctly. I don’t think I’ve ever been successful at putting anything together. Mostly my femme partner of the moment has come to my rescue. Even if they think they are not good at putting stuff together they quickly discover they are better at it than I am. It’s in the vision. I usually end up putting it together upside down or backwards. My first long term relationship was with a woman who was a whiz at stuff like that. I remember a butch friend of ours trying to teach me how to fix my car. I told her to show my partner cause she was interested and capable. I don’t think this made me any less butch or her any less femme. When we bought a crib for our son she put it together without even looking at the directions. I baked some cookies. I’m good at cooking stuff.

But that’s not really what being a butch is about. It’s not adhering to some societal gender rules about what is masculine and what is feminine. It’s not about living up to society’s definition of masculinity nor is it about living down society’s definition of femininity. Just like being femme isn’t about femininity per se or the lack of masculinity. It can include that aspect in one’s personality but that is not the essence of it. I guess it’s easier to say what it isn’t than what it is. My wife told me when we first met that my butchness entered the room before I did. It’s not about what I do or don’t do, it’s about who I am.

Butch is absolutely not male. If it was we wouldn't need to even have the gender identity of butch. We could all just call ourselves men or male. The whole point of gender identities such as butch and femme is that we claim our own identities and do not conform to gender stereotypes or traditional expectations. We have forged our own path. So why would we fall back on heteronormative stereotypes and equate butch with male?

Male id'd butches are not "more butch" than those of us who are not. Also the vast majority of butches I have ever known or met in real life identify with being a female and woman and are very proud of it. Things get quite skewed online. I hate the hierarchy and when butch is equated to male and when those of us who are not are made to feel less than or not true butch. It is infuriating and actually makes no sense. It does not reflect reality and how most butches live out in the real world at all. And yes it still does happen all the time where people do this. I can think of several recent threads right on this forum where it has been quite blatant.

Masculinity is not owned by men or male. Female masculinity and butch are very powerful in their own right. I do think it has mostly to do with energy and how one walks through the world- which is hard to describe or pin down.

[QUOTE=Miss Tick;577700]I think this is true, sometimes it does set up an undercurrent of competitiveness and even a hierarchy of butchness where the more you identify with male, the more “he” you are, the higher you ascend on the scale of butch. Often it feels that the masculinity a butch presents is being judged on its likeness or resemblance to what is traditionally considered male. I think that is the problem with trying to describe the essence of what is butch and what makes a butch a butch. It is not concrete or even clearly definable. It may have to do with energy resembling what is thought of as masculine but it is not male. Some butches may be male and/or consider themselves a man and some may be female and/or consider themselves a woman, but that is a personal trait and not the definition or the essence of a butch.

Unfortunately for me, I often take what people say innocently, non judgmentally, to describe themselves and what being butch is for them and use it to underscore for myself what is less than about my butchness. Thankfully, not so much anymore, but old habits die hard. I think this is connected to my lack of certain abilities and interests shared by most of my butch friends over the years.

I am not mechanically apt. I can’t build anything either. Certainly not from scratch but even if it comes in a box with directions it isn’t likely I will be able to put it together correctly. I don’t think I’ve ever been successful at putting anything together. Mostly my femme partner of the moment has come to my rescue. Even if they think they are not good at putting stuff together they quickly discover they are better at it than I am. It’s in the vision. I usually end up putting it together upside down or backwards. My first long term relationship was with a woman who was a whiz at stuff like that. I remember a butch friend of ours trying to teach me how to fix my car. I told her to show my partner cause she was interested and capable. I don’t think this made me any less butch or her any less femme. When we bought a crib for our son she put it together without even looking at the directions. I baked some cookies. I’m good at cooking stuff.

But that’s not really what being a butch is about. It’s not adhering to some societal gender rules about what is masculine and what is feminine. It’s not about living up to society’s definition of masculinity nor is it about living down society’s definition of femininity. Just like being femme isn’t about femininity per se or the lack of masculinity. It can include that aspect in one’s personality but that is not the essence of it. I guess it’s easier to say what it isn’t than what it is. My wife told me when we first met that my butchness entered the room before I did. It’s not about what I do or don’t do, it’s about who I am.[/QUOTE]

I love this! Thank you Miss Tick :)

this thread has made me rethink the word butch. and i've decided that i will not ever use the word masculine or any word that is considered a synonym/related to the word masculine by most dictionaries, ... when talking about a butch. a traditional word i am throwing out the window, so to speak.

i love this post. <3

it reminds me of an article my partner shared with me recently which talked about the idea that some folks have that transitioning is somehow the "completion" of butchness...so all butch lesbians should essentially want to be trans*/want to be "real men." i've seen this stereotype especially coming from straight folks who misunderstand butch/femme and trans* identities, but i feel like it is related to the masculine/maleness supremacy in our society and the idea that we should all essentially have penis envy and want to be as cool as "real men" (yuck). to me this idea is harmful to everyone, and it misinterprets our queer identities.

(the article is here - it's written by a female butch - if anyone wants to check it out.)

My partner would LOVE this :)

I personally do embrace masculinity as part of myself- female masculinity- but not all butches do.

Thank you aishah for that article. I completely relate to it.

I think genderqueer is a perfectly fine identity for those who resonate with it. It doesn't resonate with me at all. I have experienced times when people try to place butch under some sort of GenderQueer, Transgender and/or Masculine of Center "Umbrella." While I believe the attempts are made with good intentions towards being very inclusive, a big problem I have encountered with this is woman tends to get subsumed under this umbrella concept and male/masculine always seems to come to the forefront. At least that has how it has felt to me. It hasn't felt "woman friendly" at all to me when attempts are made to use it as an umbrella term. Now an individual identifying as genderqueer is of course their identity so that is not at all problematic to me.

Exactly!!!! This reminds me of the most annoying question I have ever been asked, "so, if you like girls who look like boys then why are you not with a man?"

I will quote this the next time I am asked this! Hehe :)

That question makes me throw up in my mouth a little.

I don’t think either male or female is necessarily synonymous with the identity of butch. For some butch is a gender unto itself. Others see a male or female identity as something to add to butch. To me the definition of butch and butch energy is fairly encompassed in the term female masculinity but I get that’s not for everyone.

I agree with bulldog’s assessment that woman tends to get subsumed under this umbrella concept and male/masculine always seems to come to the forefront, as per usual.

The hierarchy I think is more a natural extension of a misogynistic society that places more value on anything male than it is a consciously held belief in the superiority of male id’d butches or any other masculine identity over female id’d butches. Whether this is better or not is debatable. At least a consciously held belief is owned and therefore can be challenged. The sneaky ways misogyny can control some of our thought processes is difficult to break through.

Yes I agree with this. I don't believe people go around thinking oh well male id butches are superior. It is that butch gets defined on male terms because male is valued over female- and we get that from being in a misogynistic society.

Also despite all the talk about how horrible "the binary" is people still seem to have a hard time separating masculinity from male or femininity from female . I think it is abundantly clear that there are men with feminine energy and women with masculine energy and plenty of people with a mixture and who don't clear identify with being strictly male or female. Yet we tend to fall back to what we have been raised with. Again, I believe one of the major points of identifying as butch, femme or other gender identities is that we are forging our own paths.

Butch has everything to do with being a lesbian/queer masculine female for me- that is what butch is to me. It isn't for everyone. Butch is obviously not synonymous with female- not all females identify as butch and not all butches identify as female.

Obviously. LOL. You are right. It was perhaps not the right word to choose. I meant neither male nor female are a necessary addition to the identity of butch and that butch is not automatically considered a female or male identity. Although for me it is a female identity, as I am female and a woman as well as a butch and a feminist and a lesbian.

And I do identify with genderqueer but I don't identify as genderqueer because as a woman there is something about it that feels a tad erasing. But I am eternally evolving so perhaps i will find a way to reconcile the two. My feelings are probably left over from when people argued over whether femme could be a genderqueer identity.

For me, reading ten pages of posts about how "IT" is oozing
from "our" every pore really doesn't feel all that supportive.
Do femme's ooze out of every pore and if they do are they also helpless?
<cringe> I really hate the stereotyping. ALL of it.
Knight in shining armor bs saving the damsel in distress fantasy?
really?
Can we stop with the harlequin stuff ,one day? please?! snort! :runforhills:


Maybe I'm wrong but femme's seem to have an easier time bonding
with one another. In a way that makes me envious, when it is indeed
a genuine thing (f)

For years, it used to be funny for people to talk about what 2 x 4 idiots
we are.I laughed myself until I "got" that it was not really funny.
Although sometimes quite dense , I am not stupid or simple.
That appears to not be so common any more and I appreciate it.
I'm sure there were wars over "that" that I may have missed.
Maybe we grew up as a community some, I hope so.

False bravado does not impress me. Trying very hard not to toot my own horn
in here so , I'll just say I can sew and have been( more times than not) the most sensitive person, when in a relationship If that makes me less than, in your "ideal vision" of what butch means ,you wouldn't really appreciate me anyway. I also hate watching sports but I will play them
( maybe)

We are all very different and that's fine
not stone,stone,bottom's,top's,female identified,male identified
31 flavors and then some
nobody gets the top slot and I am not taking a back seat for anyone

I've seen lumberjack guys sporting kilts ( just because they want to) and I admire the hell out of grown men who cry when it hits them.

Love this!!!

Why? I don't understand how you came to this conclusion.

perhaps this is too simple an answer....
 

What makes a butch "butch" to me is whether or not he/she/hy ID's that way.

I know a ton of lesbians who wear mens' clothes, sport short hair, maybe even pack once in a while, but they are not "butch", and they generally resent the term.

Butch is that certain je ne sais quoi that cannot be defined, and it is different within each butch person. Some are "soft", most are hard, at least at one point or another :tease: , but there is something about them that makes them Butch, and they have usually almost always been or at least felt that way.

They could wear a dress and heels, but, at least in my experience, they usually can't walk for shit. LOL

Butches are like fine chocolates, each one unique, each delicious in their own way.

Well, Dude, I like to think I do! But I am certainly not helpless.

You have no idea how sexy that is, Dude! I'd give my big toe to be able to sew! If there is something you cannot do, I will so trade you something (cookies, maybe?) for your sewing services. LOL Stereotypes are usually there for a reason, but they are never all-encompassing. If someone does not appreciate your softer side, well she's not good enough for you anyway.

:)

Bonding with other Femmes has been a learned skill for me. The first 40 years of my life I had no good Femme friends and the Femmes I knew saw me as a threat. Even when I went to my first Dash-Bash, Femmes avoided me.

Its not easier. I make an effort and realize the importance of community and love love love my Femme sisters now. Maybe I am too old to be a threat any more, but thats cool. Lol.

Great post! :)

crap, I did not mean to come off insensitive and do get that it must sometimes be hard for femme's too. sorry :tea:

vegas?
bloody hell! I should have moved to your table :koolaid:
One butch and three ftm's were friendly to me the entire time.
I will have a soft spot in my heart for them, forever.
I could make a movie spoof of the worst prom nightmare ever. ?
Of course, it may have been the company I was keeping or not anywhere's close to keeping, too. snort
Threats come in all ages :rrose:
It's a shame, people think the worst of each other without knowing them.

I did not mean to sound like you were being insensitive :), just wanted you to know its hard for all of us.:sunglass:

Nah, I was cool in Vegas, I had a date. New Orleans was really rough though. We've all come a lonnnng way since then. The Reunions are wayy more friendly on all fronts. :)

Glad you're not in the dating pool...cause you just described my man Mr Princess himself...just call me lucky :)

I agree with this Apocalipstic - it's always been hard for me to have femme friends even in the straight world...and I am sure I was partly responsible for that...at this point in my life and this stage of the game I don't take all that stuff so seriously or myself for that matter and I find it much easier to know who is real and who isn't and I love my femme friends....sadly right now most all of them live in Tennessee <3

first off ,to me ,straight women are Not femme's

secondly this is a butch thread , not a man thread

and that's all I'm gonna say ( I think ) :|

One of the things that still, always has, and always will bother me is the linkage of male and butch. As far as I remember, every single time (dash & planet) the identity of butch appears, the identity of male appears with it. Woman and butch seem to appear as a secondary concept and we (woman butch) are put into a defensive position.

Butch does not equal male or man as a default. In my mind, butch is a default female or woman identity. Butch is masculinity carried in a female body. Butch is queering masculinity in a female body. There is a difference between masculine and male/man.

I'm not clear I am being clear.....laughin......so I'll stop now...

I quess you get to say what people can and cannot say ....It's not a femme thread either but you had a lot to say about them ..But I see it's what ever YOU chose it to be ...

I really, really like this thread because of this post, and the vast majority of the other posts in this thread that say similar things. Many butch posters have gone to great lengths to say in ways both simple and complex that their female bodies carry their butch-i-tude. That being butch is, for them, masculine energy in a woman's body. That being butch means simply being themselves.

That's super cool. (And super hot.) What's not cool is that so many butches have been made to feel defensive about being both butch and a woman. I wish it were not so. I wish I could wave a magic wand and make all the bs disappear. Unfortunately, the only thing I can do is continually offer my unquestioning support. You're all perfect and beautiful exactly the way you are.

I guess that happens because some butches identify as male. And male seems to overpower and sometimes erase female. So it feels as though we are put on the defensive. And often we do have to be on the defensive because the female part of female masculinity gets lost in male posturing and bravado.

Yet the reality is that some butches don’t identify as women and some don’t even identify as female. Personally I believe butch is a default female or woman identity. It is about butch masculinity carried in a female body. It is most definitely for me about queering masculinity in a female body. And there certainly is a difference between masculine and male/man. Yet there are butches who identify as male or man. I just don’t see this as having to do with a butch identity. To me it is another identifier used in conjunction with but not a requisite part of being butch. Yet it is a part of that butch.

I remember being told growing up that my actions were not the actions of a woman. I was told that little girls didn’t act in whatever way I was acting. I finally explained that this couldn’t be true because I was in fact a girl and I was doing whatever it was I was doing so consequently girls did indeed do it. I remember how that felt when someone tried to take female from me. I am a butch but I am also a woman. Anyway knowing how that felt, I wouldn’t tell anyone else who they can be or that any action or identity takes away another. I could never say butches cannot be male or man. I just don’t think that being male or man is connected to their butchness.

Butch does not equal male or man. Man is not butch taken to its logical conclusion. Neither is male. Butch is about female masculinity or masculinity queered. But masculinity can be queered without a female identity and I don't think that erases butch. Perhaps then it is not exactly female masculinity but it is queered masculinity. And that is not your straight man’s masculinity. It is quite a different animal indeed.