The thing is that most of the time, I imagine, the parties involved just wouldn't care. So why have a rule? And if, as in Word's case, you are confronted with THE relationship, then most bets are off.

I see no point in a rule. If the question is would I be hurt, probably not. If I were, should it make a difference to the new couple? Probably not. Why should my old pain discourage a potentially good relationship from forming?

I saw mention of something called a femme code. After nearly 30 years of being a femme, I learn there is a code. Who knew? I assume it means don't flirt with a friend's ex -- in this context.

The idea is offensive to me in some ways. The assumption is that femmes need a code, that without it we'd be poaching each other's partners or ex's, that there is a real risk of that kind of behavior without creating norms we have to enforce with our disapproval.

I have never run with large groups of butches and femmes, but I have known many over the years. And I would not characterize femmes this way.

I have dated exes of friends. I have asked my friends first, if that was ok. Protocol. And courtesy.

the problem I see in the case Anya gave us, was the nastiness of those two flirting in front of her friend. Mean People! It was low and spiteful of them to put on a display that they knew would make Anya's friend uncomfortable. If I did date someone's ex, I would be discrete about affection in front of them until I knew everyone involved was ok with it.

I have had new girlfriends of MY exes parade in front of me. But then, I did that to someone once too, for which i am ashamed now of my past action. We learn through our mistakes or we stay bitches. I learned...

I also DATE femmes. Femmes are not some category of person whom I bond with in a non-sexual way and swear a scouts' oath of loyalty to.

I don't know. Weird eery heteronormative music started playing in the background when I was reading this thread.

Are you saying it's weird to not date other femmes and to prefer butches? Not saying I don't find femmes to be *beautiful* but it saddens me to be boxed into the weird category once again because I prefer dating the more masculine end of the spectrum. Cues Radiohead *I'm a creep, I'm a weirdo*....

Bouncing off Martina's post
 

Oh, *I* date all over the queer gender spectrum.




I'm far from hetero so I'm going to disagree with your perception.

It's a buzzkill (for the relationship) if a trusted member of my chosen inner circle dates or makes a move on someone I was in love with or owned.

It's boundary crossing for "me" I don't expect for anyone else but the people I'm allowing in my life to respect these boundaries. It's going to be a well known fact I have these expectations because like with any other relationship my chosen circle will know because in developing the friendship it will be talked about. Friendships are relationships.

I feel it's an individual choice on how one values relationships over nookie.

Gender is much less important to me when this boundary issue exists than the fact that I want to honor my friendships and maintain loyalty to my heartfriends.

I would feel exactly the same way if say Just_G, whom I consider to be one of my close Butch friends, suddenly started dating Butches, got into a long term relationship, was all in love and shit, and they then split up. I wouldn't date G's ex partner, Butch or Femme or Transman, for the exact same reason I don't date my girlfriend's exes.

The bonds I have with my Femme girlfriends are special though, no doubt, and whether it's het-normative or not, those relationships are a type of bond that is specific, intentional, and some of the most affirming space I have in my life.

I get the friend thing. I don't get the femme code thing. That strikes me as sexist and heteronormative.

Sexist in the sense that if we didn't claim this great loyalty bond, we'd be out there conniving to get each other's partners.

Heteronormative in grouping like gender people "friends" and the other gender as "potential dates."

No. I wasn't saying that.

Miss Tia, I appreciate that you read and "got it" exactly as written!

Just simple human kindness. Femme to femme kindness.

Dating the ex of a close, sister-heart femme would not even be in my own personal universe of clear boundaries but neither would hurting a non-close acquaintance by flirting in front a recently dumped or in pain femme.

That is just me.

I get that many of you have a different belief or value system.

We certainly do not always agree on the Planet and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, as is our right.

I agree, belle. It should be about how you'd treat any friend or friendship. It's not a butch femme thing, I'd hope.

Edited to add -- this is not worthy of a sustained discussion. Or at least I don't have that much energy invested.

I was seeing the heteronormative part is ASSUMING that we date across genders. That is heteronormative. Not saying butch-femme is. But the assumption that femmes NATURALLY or inevitably date butches and butches femmes IS.

I am not saying it was generally assumed, but in some posts, it was. I guess it's a fair assumption on this site, but it's not, in fact, true of all of us. And sometimes I like to point that out.

Clarifying
 

I tend not to assume that femme = dating butch only. I certainly don't date in this way.

Where am I saying that that is heteronormative? Where? I clarified. I am saying it is heteronormative to assume that masculine folks inevitably date feminine.

Ah, I see what you're saying.

I think when I think of the Butch/Femme dance in my head, it is a specific dynamic based on mutual attraction of certain gender-types. This is probably binary thinking. That dance has been exploded for me in amazing ways by witnessing Butches date other Butches and Femmes date other Femmes and Transmen dating Butches or Femmes and vice-versa.

My specific brand of Femme is attracted to Butches when it comes to sex and partnering. I like the genderfuck and the mind-fuck. The other wonderful thing that comes from that is that I find camaraderie with other Femmes who have a similar kind of specific attraction to other Butches. It's just familiar and intimate on levels that feel cozy (and maybe safe?)

Doesn't mean I don't have anything in common with Femme sisters who exclusively date other Femmes or Transmen. It's just a different orbit and a different level of connection.

When I think of the kind of boundaries I want to have in friendships and dating, I think about the value of my connections and not the gender of those connections.

Yes, and there are butches who date butches here. And some andro women. So it's good once and a while I think to raise one's hand and say, femme-femme doesn't necessarily mean platonic friend nor butch-femme necessarily potential dating partners.

Anyway. I don't think anyone has a stake in saying that it DOES mean that. But it does get assumed a lot, which makes sense. So sometimes I clear my throat and say "ahem," there are a few of us who do other stuff too.

Nor do I!!

Assuming it is natural or the norm IS, however.

I think I am probably way more likely to assume that on this website microcosm than I am out in my general Queer circles. That's just based on what I perceive to be the patterns of attraction in this community.

Have certainly seen folks date across all genders here but I do think that the majority of connections I see are based on an attraction that looks very much like a yin/yang.

still trying to understand
 

I'm glad you do that! I think it helps break down some of those pre-conceived notions or maybe patterns of expectation that we all bump into.

I know I feel much the same way (gratitude) when people speak up for "ahem, not all Butches identify as 'he'" and "not all fat Femmes want to lose weight" and "ahem, bottom Butch does NOT equal submissive".

Dating other femmes exes:
 

Every Butch who has ever dated a femme is some femmes Ex

And are all femmes to be considered Sister femmes to every femme on Planet?

Perhaps it would it be better for each butch to come with a warning label - Be forewarned my ex is _____ and ______ and ______.

And at what time does my own desire, my own happines mean anything - Good lord, does this mean I'm bad and wrong if I find someone attractive who has dated someone on Planet who is someone's EX.

And If I decide to do the right thing in another femme's eyes and not date her EX, will she help me look outside of Planet for someone for me to date?

And is this discussion about any Ex on Planet OR the just the Ex of a femme that I've developed a bond?

I hate stepping on other people's hearts - why did this subject have to come up - man!! NOW I have more worries on my plate.

My little list of what is acceptable for a perspective date has just become almost Nil.
:seeingstars:

Ah!
 

Ahhh, see I post with the assumption Ex meant ex period, not just specific to butch.femme relationships.

I'm personally not goinfriendship friendship over lust/dating that goes across the gender board.

I like gender. I like people who rock it, be they femme, butch, genderqueer or something else.

I also like power; powerful people do it for me.

I am not interested in someone because they are butch or femme. I like butch. I like femme. But I like my kinda butch and my kinda femme. Butches who are not like the kind who do it for me -- I am no more interested in than in anyone else who does not ring my bell.

What I do get from butches and femmes that I am grateful for (and need) is that mutual recognition that we offer one another, that respect and appreciation of one another that we so far can only get from one another. I value that highly.

Edited to add: This probably seems like it follows from nothing. Just commenting on the Ying-Yang thing. I am not so ying yang except where power is concerned. Not so much with gender.

Lady-

I perceive people to be talking about *very* close friendships, not the casual connections that I think you are describing.

Just for example, June and I are very close friends. She is my sistergirl and I have known her and her partner for going on 8 or 9 years now. I love them both.
They also know Jackhammer and I has a couple. We have been in each other's homes several times and June and I are probably responsible for keeping AT&T in business with thousands of hours of phone calls.

We are close in ways that are super intimate and I have confided in her as she has in me about very personal things. If she and Kat broke up, you couldn't PAY me to date Kat. Or even consider it. (and that isn't because I don't think Kat is awesome, because she is, but she is my girl's partner and therefor off limits in huge ways fo-eva-eva).

And honestly, it's not even something that will ever come up because my relationship with Jackhammer is forever and #2 My friendship with June is a primary friendship.

Woooo!
 

You're welcome to date any of my exes!!

for me it would be the same thing if i get into a relationship/date my heterosexual male friend's ex.

makes no difference if my friend is homosexual/heterosexual/transexual/bisexual/butch/femme, etc. ... it's still my friends ex.

Wow Queen of Smirks!

I snubbed my nose at no one and clearly said we all have our own opinions and and as usual, many of us disagree.

I DO get that many if you have a different value or belief system. In what universe is that not OK?

Rhetorical question because I don't know if you play devils advocate or what but you do tend to frequently poke at an opinion that you do not agree with.

That feels real judgmental to me!!

In the same way that you are entitled to your opinion:

I am also entitled to mine!!

I agree whole heartedly with all the above here....

I think the above is important to repeat.


Anya, I can tell by your very emotional reaction to this situation/subject that you really care for your friend. I hope that this will soon be a distant memory for her and bitterness stays far away. :)

Many good points have been made. The main one that I agreed with is the issue of acquaintance vs good friend. A good friend's ex would be off limits for me without a considerable amount of discussion with that friend. But to exclude acquaintances' ex's would be unreasonably limiting in an already limited and therefor unavoidably incestuous community.

And I have to say honestly that in a situation of A and B break up, A starts dating C then gets hurt because her acquaintance D is flirting with her ex B at a party? Sorry, but to me, there's too many degrees of separation there in MY mind for A to justify getting upset that her ex and an acquaintance are flirting when A already has someone new.

I guess I'm not understanding this question in the context of a situation that you described as being all "real life" and not online. Do you mean people who are acquaintances only online? Or people who are real-life acquaintances but who interact online? or do you mean online "dating" without having ever met?