As my namesake says: I love mankind. It's people I can't stand.

There are times when I question whether the T really belongs with the rest of the alphabet (so to speak). I suspect that many people put assumptions about people who transition (not all but some). It's ironic that the same conversation was being had by the LGBTQ community a few decades ago (K and I watched an episode of the Golden Girls where Blanche is introduced to her baby brother's new friend -- and soon-to-be-husband; she behaves exactly as the host).

To be honest, I've found that if people stopped worrying about impressions and images life would be a lot easier. In fact, most people (that I've run into, at least) either are oblivious, don't give a shit or too self-centered to really notice. Offense isn't the issue; the issue usually is "Where's the beer?", "Where's the food?" and "Can I have another beer?".

In a positive spin of life, my aunt got married this summer. I wasn't sure how her friends and how our family would take my obvious physical change (I've met many of her friends -- film and music people -- over the years). I was well received and, had I arrived earlier, I would have been the best man for my aunt and new-uncle's wedding. I was floored at this level of acceptance (granted my name is the nickname she choose and she's only 8 years older than me so it's more of a sibling-like relationship).

It sucks, Jet, that you're going through this but I suspect this will lessen over time (at least it has for me). Now either its because people don't care or because I don't give a shit about other's opinions (issues) about me. I hope that these become farther and farther apart for you.

I have enjoyed this thread a great deal. I am a quiet guy. I rarely get pissed off, but I cannot stand it when I get ma'amed. Remember Linus in the smoke shop? I introduced myself as Andrew. I live as a man. And still I get ma'amed. It grated on my nerves like fingernails being drug across a chalk board.:eek:

Oh well. I say live and let live. However, like Linus, I love mankind, but have issues with people (mainly the ones who are disrespectful and intentionally evil). But that is just me, and how I am. I'm a private person as well. Too many times I have tried to be open, and was hurt deeply. So, I won't be that way ever again. I have learned my lesson.

It's hard to get people to understand a trans individuals mind. I certainly can understand why it's difficult. It's just like me not understanding what it's like to be completely comfortable with one's body from day one. While we should always try to understand what it might be like in someone else's shoes it's hard to comprehend sometimes.

And in the times when I used to get "ma'am'd" (I recently --yesterday and keep in my photo, which is how I look -- got called "Baby" by the manager of a local grocery store -- it was more of a term of friendliness than anything, I think) I smile and remember Llama Surya Das' teaching of compassion for those who mean a lot to us and those we hardly know. Those who do those infractions may have had a hard life, especially those who throw hate at us. I've got to figure that those who are so mired into hate must have lived painful lives to get where they are and I cannot do anything other than feel compassion for the pain they must have endured to get where they are.

So, Andrew, if I can offer: when you get "Ma'am'd", smile and politely correctly them and continue. It will make them re-think a bit and probably blush. In your prayers to God, ask Him/Her to direct them and alleviate their pain. (I hope it's ok that I mention this and if it's not, I'll remove it)


In another tangent: I'm curious as to everyone's thoughts on the term "cis" (I've seen it used in the following examples: cis-gendered, cis-man, cis-woman, etc.) This past summer a huge debate started about cis and how it was offensive to a "cis-gendered individual" (I'll use the term in this sense since I don't have the words on how else to describe it and "non-trans individual" doesn't quite seem right either..).

Opinions? Thoughts?

Addressing us as "Miss"

From this site: http://cydathria.com/ms_donna/tg_def.html

I am right with you when I comes to being "ma'amed" And when I am with a female, being called "ladies", etc. My ex-wife continues to use female pronouns when referring to me. Grr! This is why I am so looking forward to going on T (which will probably begin after the first of this year). I feel invisible. It's painful.

That being said, I worry about how I will be perceived after transition. Will I be shunned but the queer community as no longer being part of the tribe? Will femmes no longer be interested? Will my queerness be invisible? I don't consider myself straight- no because I am attracted to masculine people. I am not. But because I am attracted to femmes. Femmes aren't straight women. I have little interest in straight women. Does that make me a jerk? I hope not. But will I trade being seen as a female for no longer being seen as queer when I go on T?? What is your experiences guys? Do any of you feel the same?

From my experience the following:

I never really felt part of the "Tribe", so to speak although the B-F dynamic did certainly feel more at peace than elsewhere.

Some in the community will shun you. That's a reality. You'll be viewed as a "traitor", so to speak. But just as many will accept you as you are. There are many femmes who like transguys so I don't think you'll be without and you'll likely be very interesting to them.

As for your queerness, invisible to whom? If to yourself, then no. You're the one who defines that, not others. I don't consider myself straight although to mainstream society that doesn't know me I probably do. That is their assumption (we all know that to assume makes an "ass" out of "u" and "me" so one shouldn't do those thigns but people do). Regardless of their assumption, I still define my own sexual orientation.

Would you be a jerk for not wanting to date blond-haired women? I don't think so. It shows your own preferences in a partner, that special "thing" that attracts you to someone.

Remember that the whole transition is the most important selfish thing you have determined you need to do. Everything else will come or not but it doesn't change your core self.

For my first 3 months on T I still used women's washroom (never got chased out). I then gradually began using unisex washrooms (usually family washrooms at airports or Starbucks when out in public). I then used men's washrooms. Besides the cleaniness factor (men's washrooms are a sty at times), most men don't pay attention. If you go in there with purpose and direction, no one stops you. And I sit every time. No one has ever challenged me on that.

Hrmm.. I don't think I've ever noticed but then again, I have the advantage of a beard and facial hair seems to cement things for most people's view of gender (voice drop didn't hurt either).

When I was out in Kansas City last year, I got read both ways (I was there for work so by myself).

Did the person in question know both of you before Nick began transition?

I do see a therapist, and I have been to the san francisco support group, although I now live 2 hours away and that is not easy for me to make it. But I am talking to people and this forum is one of the resources I am utilizing.

Oh Linus, you can ask me to do or say anything. I appreciate you, and your advice. I feel like you are my brother.

Jet, I use a pissing packer. I still am working on the aim situation. For the life of me, I just cannot figure it out, and end up with pee down my leg, all over my boxers, and pants. I feel like such a :eek: to sum it up.

Drew & Bit, You are right about being shunned by the glbt community. I get alot of slack because I don't fit in. I am never in the "in" crowd for whatever reason. I have a tbi that causes me to have a host of neurological health issues. I am on meds, but no surgery or anything else can "cure" my health problems. When you have a head injury, that is it. You are injured for life.

I can remember coming out as lesbian and being shunned by straights.

I can remember coming out as butch and being shunned by lesbians.

I can remember coming out in leather and being shunned by both.

There will always be people out there who will shun, run, fear and try to bully others because it is their nature to bully. The good news is there are plenty of humans out there who will connect with you on a variety of levels from the intimate to the professional and everything in between and they will come from all corners of human experience. Some will need a little time to get their equalibrium. I always give new aquaintenances a bit of slack because I realize that their world might not be as wide as mine. However, life is short and I don't waste my time on anyone who either cannot get over it or are making me uncomfortable with the effort of acting like they are doing me some sort of favor even interacting with me (or playing the 'Look at me! I am so open minded' self delusion). Nasty bigots can just bugger off IMHO. In the end, it is always my choice. It's me who gets to pick and chose who I want to trust and be close to.

I always pass these days. I have an aquaintenance (straight man) who referred to Jenny and I as 'ladies'. It was rather touching because he always treats me with respect and seemed to want to let me know that he 'gets' me even though Jenny always calls me 'he'...LOL. He has shifted now, but it was for a good year. He never meant to offend me...but people looked at him really funny because some of them genuinely didn't know.

Just my 2p (Oh, and Trans works for me. It covers just about everything:))

Blue

P.S. What? No spell check??????

I've never been fond of "cis-", but using "bio-" always worked just fine for me.

I know there are transmen who do not like to hear the term "bio-male" to refer to someone......oh, someone like my brother.......but it's always been a natural default for me, and it makes clinical sense......*to me*.

I certainly never mean to offend anyone. I also recognize that it's virtually impossible not to offend *someone* when navigating these waters. I think if people are genuine, thoughtful, and honest we should cut 'em a little slack and *respectfully* explain why something may be offensive or hurtful.

Respect is the key. A little compassion, patience, and understanding come in handy too.

Linus and Greyson, thank you both very much!

Linus, it always seems to be strangers... maybe Nick knows them but, I doubt it. It's really bad in restaurants and grocery stores.

Greyson, this is what I was wondering. Now I'm wondering if, in the company of men, Transmen might not have this strange situation... in other words, this thing which has always happened around me, this thing which somehow makes strangers think that any Butch I am with is my sister rather than my lover, is this "the-thing-which-makes-me-invisible-as-a-Femme" at work in yet one more way to make people "un-see" a Transman?

If it is, then I can finally understand the knee-jerk reaction some Transmen have had to the idea of staying in the community, and the insistence some Transmen have had on being with straight women rather than Femmes. It never made sense to me and I felt really hurt by the overwhelming way some guys rejected not just the community but also Transensual Femmes.

I never understood why the person who most wanted to support a guy would be the person he rejected... but if a Femme's very presence is enough to make strangers everywhere "un-see" a Transman's truth, it becomes clear why so many guys shy away.

Am I on the right track here? Or am I way out in left field?

I'm telling you, I have been SO TEMPTED to turn to these people in shock and say--as politely as I can, to educate not to blast--"why are you calling him a lady? We would prefer it if you said 'you guys' or 'you folks' please."

I refrain because it isn't my battle to fight, and I wouldn't do that to a guy without permission.

...........but omg I cringe, I cringe, I cringe.....

Hi Bit...

I don't think it's a regional thing at all. From *my* experiences, I was not perceived as male when I was out-n-about because I was read as female. It didn't matter if it was out west, on the east coast, down in Texas, or up in Minnesota.

I had top surgery 16 months prior to starting T. During that time, I very often was sir'd upon initial contact........and then I spoke.

Prior to that, I bound my chest. If someone picked up on that fact, then they didn't even need my voice to "clue them in".

It didn't matter how I dressed, carried myself, or wore my hair. They read me as female, so I was "ma'am" and "lady". And what really sucked is that I don't recall thinking that anyone was *ever* being disrespectful. Quite the opposite, actually.

For me, these were my experiences whether or not I was alone, with family, with guys, or with femmes. It just didn't matter.

So I don't know that *that* would be the reason a transman would opt out of the company of other queers and/or femmes. Just my opinion, of course...

Respectfully,
Thinker

Well, I'm lucky and unlucky. My mom's family (who I grew up with mostly) have been very supportive (I have 3 uncles and 2 aunts along with my grandmother and a 2nd cousin). My grandmother was the only one who said she'd refuse to use anything but my birthname and gender. I think when she saw how happy and content I was at my aunt's wedding this summer she softened. Certainly they all said that they loved me and were supportive but that they might need time to get used to it. My aunt (the one who got married) and my cousin have been the most supportive of me. My other aunt (who was closer to my mom's age) is a little more conservative and taking a little longer but still supportive.

My grandmother, being a nurse, was concerned about the medical side of things but when I let them know about the regular lab work and doctor's visits they were more supportive. Out of the blue, my grandmother started using "Linus" rather than my birthname during our online Scrabble games. I guess she's starting to come around. I suspect she still doesn't understand or like it but still loves me and just wants me happy. I don't see my family that often (maybe 1-2 a year, if that).

My father and his wife... well, they've never really been supportive and he wasn't in my view of life until I was in my late teens (largely due to court orders and not necessarily something he choose). But his conservative Christian background, I'm sure, tells him not to agree to my path. He has said that as long as I'm happy that's all that matters. Again, I don't see him or hear from him that often. I have a cousin on that side of the family that I occasionally hear from and her mother, my aunt/father's sister, does reach out now and again to me.

Transitioning as an adult, I think, can be somewhat easier because you are living your own life and making your own decisions.

Neither of my parents are alive and weren't when I started my transition.

I have a large number of siblings and loads of nieces and nephews, etc... While I know in my heart of hearts that many of them had certain feelings of not understanding, all have shown (at least to *me*) acceptance and love.

I have not shared real-time space with my family since I started T (mostly because I'm not real big on flying), but I share photos. Not much is said; the few comments I've heard are mostly along the lines of "you look really good".

I know it's hard for them and that they struggle with just how to celebrate/acknowledge/question the physical changes. They're loving and respectful, and I appreciate that.

I don't know how I'm going to handle mine. None of them has a clue about gender transition or reassignment. I got in a fist fight with my uncle who called me every name in the book and then some as we rolled on the floor fighting. My father disowned me briefly until we reconciled this past year. This was just because I was gay—can you imagine the response to reassignment?

On the other hand, my aunt was way cool about me telling her I was transgendered. But to physically change is another matter entirely. My mother is dead and my dad is really aging. My entire extended family knows I'm gay, and there are many of them. I came out to my best friends and the idea of being male didn't surprise them at all. I don't need top surgery other than keyhole. I've never had to bind or anything like that, and I'm grateful.

I think its going to be imperative to join support groups as well as therapy.

I still want to leave the question open here on the thread as well as, does your work know?

I've heard from some transguys who said that their parents were against them being gay but when they started transitioning it was ok since now they would "appear" normal (hetreonormative relationship appearance concept I think). Hopefully they will be supportive or, at the least, respectful.

My work knows and has been extremely supportive. In fact, I was surprised that even the most ardent born-again Christian was. He was very respectful (I suspect he may not fully understand the whys) and we, when meeting up, still have our discussions about the Bible and such. I know I'm extremely lucky to be in a work environment that is so supportive. Even some of my clients know and are very supportive. Their support comes from me doing an excellent job, regardless of my personal life. (which is how it's supposed to be, no?)

Thank you, Thinker!
This is what I've been seeing; it is so PAINFULLY obvious that they're "being respectful" yanno?

Thank you for your input on the whole "with or without a Femme" question. I think the voice issue plagues many Transmen until the T lowers their voices or gives them facial hair, one or the other... but I do have a friend who is talking about going to a vocal coach and I think that might be a good way to handle the voice issue as well.

I work for myself right now, so it's a non-issue. It was also very intentionally set up that way.

My entire career prior to my transition (fresh out of college and for the next 21 years) was in K-12 public education. When I decided to move forward with my transition, I was out of the schools and working in central office.

There wasn't one ounce of my being that believed I would be able to announce my transition and carry it out in that position (even though I wasn't physically in a school at that time).

I was a top-notch employee, so maybe it would not have been an issue. I don't know. I do know that the school system I was in did not protect individuals on the basis of gender identity (or sexual orientation, for that matter), and I had a sickening feeling that they would find some way to either get rid of me or push me out.

Disgusting, I know; but it was a feeling I just couldn't shake.

So my lady and I made other plans for me and for 'us', and that is the life we are living now.

cath...

as I answered you while there (but am posting for posterity)

It does happen more when I am around females, whether Femmes or even my lil sister. I do not feel as though they are trying to be disrespectful it is quite the contrary. Perhaps it has something to do with them wanting to recognize what they perceive as queer and want *me* to know that they *see* me for my *queer* self and are totally ok with it, *ladies* (wink and smile). While this motis operandi causes me no end of internal turmoil, I do not see any disrespect or venom in it. It does not happen as often when I am alone, but I believe I carry myself differently when alone, there is much more 'matter of fact' and 'stay back' than when I am with friends.

The vocal issue is also ever present as is the lack of facial hair. My baby face never helps matters. :S

I am convinced that with reconstruction I will have a much better pass rate and I utterly refuse to blame the issue on such a sweet girl as you.

:D

hoping not to offend, this is tricky stuff
 

Hi Bit, I thought I would take a stab at addressing your thoughts/questions with regard to transmen "rejecting" femmes. Of course, I think it would be impossible to apply definitive answers, but I suspect there are a couple of issues at play.

I do think some transmen choose not to partner with femmes because of how they'll be "read" by the public, but the reasons are varied and often go deeper than simply being "un-seen," afterall it would be difficult to "un-see" many transmen (as opposed to someone like me, who is often sir'ed, frequently not, and can be un-seen without much difficulty).

So I offer up a few of my observations, none of which I think suggest intentional rejection (or rejection from a place of cruelty) of those who would offer the most support.

• Some have never felt gay/queer and don't feel a fit with the community.

• Some want to fully assimilate into "straight" life, for whatever reason(s), such as fear of exposure (and the possibility of rejection), or greater feelings of association and belonging.

• Some don't want any attention drawn to them at all, they simply want to blend in with the crowd. Sometimes, some femmes can be a bit, uh, flamboyant (like drag queens) and that alone draws attention (no judgment, just sayin!)

• Sometimes it IS a form of homophobia. I'm going to leave that one for further discussion.

• Sometimes it's simply that they feel they don't belong, don't have a right to date/partner from the queer pool anymore. Maybe they've too often heard, "if you think you're a man, why are you trying to date lesbians?!" (That makes me cringe.)

Again, I'm just throwing out somethings I've encountered, nothing definitive here. I would like very much to hear what other transfolk (I've been elsewhere roasted for using that term, but whatevs, I'm using it) have experienced or feel with regard to Bit's questions (which I feel ARE on track).

If you're a man, why are you trying to date lesbians?!"

I don't partner with women who think they are... or are lesbians.

There's that gray part... "transensual" women...attracted to male energy looks, physique, whatever but cannot/or prefers not to be with bio men for whatever reason. And they aren't attracted to women or the idea of being with another woman as a lesbian. (That's how transensual has been explained to me.)

A transensual is attractive to me being male as I am; I've never been a lesbian in the classic sense and never could be. Transitioning falls in place being attracted certain types of women, as I am, and having them to reciprocate... among other things.What I have wondered is why a couple who passes as a man and woman continue to stay in this lifestyle instead the straight lifestyle.

First, I want to be clear that I respect the intent of this thread and am reading it quietly in order to learn more about my community. I do not mean to derail the discussion or the intended subject except that there is a concept being brought up here I think needs a small mention.

I'll use myself to illustrate. I am a lesbian. Specifically a queer lesbian. I am currently partnered to a transperson. His identity does not affect or alter mine. It never caused me to draw into question my sexual orientation or otherwise. Being with him has helped me to see more clearly the scope of my desire. Intellectually, emotionally, physically.

That scope is quite large. Based solely on gender identity or sex, I cannot tell you with whom I would *not* choose to be. The very idea now seems ludicrous. I can only tell you that, in the main, I am drawn to a given set.

So for me to read that others would exclude me, based on how I identify the main of my sexual orientation is confusing to me. It's the struggle of the bisexual. Because she is capable of being attracted to either sex (provided we are buying the binary here), does that mean she cannot choose? And because of these foundless suspicions against her, she will forever be overlooked.

I am a lesbian. My boyfriend is not.


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