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BullDog 05-19-2010 11:23 AM

Snowy thank you. Some of these issues I've been talking about online for 10 years. I do get frustrated at times when it seems we've made little ground or had a long discussion in a thread and lots of people don't seem to understand what the hell we are even talking about.

Time for me to go chill and do my work.

SuperFemme 05-19-2010 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog (Post 109617)
Well judging by commentary in other threads I guess after talking ourselves blue in the face:

- It's emasculating to refer to butches using female pronouns if you id as male. Why? I can see where it would be insulting to not be referred to as you wish, but I thought all butches were butches and no one thought of us as less than. I thought females could be just as masculine as males. If so why would it be emasculating to refer to someone as she? Hmmmm

- Butches are looking for femmes to defer to them because we would like to be referred to (by all, not just femmes) by the right pronouns.

- We blame femmes more than butches for slipping up on prounons even though we have said over and over it's not about honest mistakes

I am the one that made this statement. Is it the word emasculating that bothers you? Does it (or did I) somehow imply that *she* is a bad word? Because that is not at ALL what I was saying.

My point was this: If somebody IS a male id'd butch, has asked to be called hy/he and now has the name Trenton instead of Tiffany? It IS emasculating (or whatever word you think fits here. if there is a better word, please tell me) for somebody to attack their chosen gender and use their given name as a way to be hurtful.

Not because of the use of feminine pronouns Bulldog, but because of the complete and total disregard for that individual as a human being.

Please help me understand why me stating this made you feel like you'd talk yourself blue in the face for nothing? Because you know me better than that. I hope.

BullDog 05-19-2010 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme (Post 109840)
I am the one that made this statement. Is it the word emasculating that bothers you? Does it (or did I) somehow imply that *she* is a bad word? Because that is not at ALL what I was saying.

My point was this: If somebody IS a male id'd butch, has asked to be called hy/he and now has the name Trenton instead of Tiffany? It IS emasculating (or whatever word you think fits here. if there is a better word, please tell me) for somebody to attack their chosen gender and use their given name as a way to be hurtful.

Not because of the use of feminine pronouns Bulldog, but because of the complete and total disregard for that individual as a human being.

Please help me understand why me stating this made you feel like you'd talk yourself blue in the face for nothing? Because you know me better than that. I hope.

What do you mean by emasculating? I take that to mean taking away someone's masculinity. If females are masculine as well, why would it be emasculating to call someone by a female (not feminine in my opinion) pronoun? I certainly do think it's disrespectful.

SuperFemme 05-19-2010 11:51 AM

emasculate: weaken somebody or something: to deprive somebody or something of effectiveness, spirit, or force

eta: it can also mean to castrate, which is not the intent with which I used it.

Jett 05-19-2010 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme (Post 109840)
I am the one that made this statement. Is it the word emasculating that bothers you? Does it (or did I) somehow imply that *she* is a bad word? Because that is not at ALL what I was saying.

My point was this: If somebody IS a male id'd butch, has asked to be called hy/he and now has the name Trenton instead of Tiffany? It IS emasculating (or whatever word you think fits here. if there is a better word, please tell me) for somebody to attack their chosen gender and use their given name as a way to be hurtful.

Not because of the use of feminine pronouns Bulldog, but because of the complete and total disregard for that individual as a human being.

Please help me understand why me stating this made you feel like you'd talk yourself blue in the face for nothing? Because you know me better than that. I hope.

I know you're not asking me SF, but I'd say it is disrespectful, thoughtless rude etc.

I agree the person using it probably is attempting to emasculate... but in that not only insulting male ID but female ID by using their pronoun as if it is an "emasculator".

And to agree that's what it does... is to agree it's a feminizing pronoun.

In a nutshell... saying "she" emasculates someone is saying butches who use it by choice are not masculine.

Which is just another form of masculinity=male.

Peace,
Metro

Rufusboi 05-19-2010 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog (Post 109843)
What do you mean by emasculating? I take that to mean taking away someone's masculinity. If females are masculine as well, why would it be emasculating to call someone by a female (not feminine in my opinion) pronoun? I certainly do think it's disrespectful.

Used as a verb, emasculate means to castrate or weaken or deprive of strength. Used as an adjective it means deprived of strength or vigor. Except in the one noun form the word can be used in connection with male/female or masculine/feminine. I believe this word is often misused to mean undermining masculinity in some way or form or making a person feel not masculine enough. I think this is an incorrect use of the word. I think in its present day use and connotations, the word emasculate is also misogynistic. Its similar to calling someone a "girl" or a "pansy" or a "fairy" or "prissy" or a "pussy" all words used to make men feel less than men (hence women, hence less than, inferior, or substandard). Once men and women are truly perceived as equals perhaps the whole need for gendered pronouns will disappear altogether and perhaps we can have just one pronoun for everyone. The gendering of language takes us back to the binaries and the binaries always place the feminized term at the bottom as somehow weaker and less than.

So for example, If I expressed my desire to be refered to with the male pronounn he, and someone insisted on using the female pronoun she, I would think of them as rude and disrespectful , but I would not feel emasculated. And vice versa. If I prefer the female pronoun she but someone insisted on using he, I would also not feel emasculated.

Rufus

Medusa 05-19-2010 12:05 PM

I know Im off topic again but this discussion is amazing and Im now wondering if anyone would find a thread about the binary of language and examples thereof interesting?
Not just in relation to gender but how the word "prissy" is seen in on way and the word "brusque" is seen in another.

SuperFemme 05-19-2010 12:06 PM

I also think it emasculating to call a female id'd Butch he and him when they have not asked to be called that. BUT I will find another word to convey what I am saying. I think it goes a hell of a lot deeper than just being disrespectful, thoughtless and rude in either instance. Both are pointedly attacking gender.

I'm sorry for mis speaking. I apologize.

Rufusboi 05-19-2010 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medusa (Post 109852)
I know Im off topic again but this discussion is amazing and Im now wondering if anyone would find a thread about the binary of language and examples thereof interesting?
Not just in relation to gender but how the word "prissy" is seen in on way and the word "brusque" is seen in another.

Yes, I would find a thread like this interesting. Language controls our reality and perceptions and hence controls us. Once we know how language works we are in a better position to unpack it and all the gendering that undermines us as men, women, trans, queer, gay straight and on and on

Rufus

Rufusboi 05-19-2010 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme (Post 109853)
I also think it emasculating to call a female id'd Butch he and him when they have not asked to be called that. BUT I will find another word to convey what I am saying. I think it goes a hell of a lot deeper than just being disrespectful, thoughtless and rude in either instance. Both are pointedly attacking gender.

I'm sorry for mis speaking. I apologize.

I refuse to give a pronoun that much power over me.

Rufus

The_Lady_Snow 05-19-2010 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medusa (Post 109852)
I know Im off topic again but this discussion is amazing and Im now wondering if anyone would find a thread about the binary of language and examples thereof interesting?
Not just in relation to gender but how the word "prissy" is seen in on way and the word "brusque" is seen in another.


YES!!!

This would be very helpful for me, here is why not that you asked..

English is my second language, so I hear and read everyone in a spanish filter then I have to translate, add the fucking dyslexia and I wanna scream sometimes.

Thank you...:blink:

The_Lady_Snow 05-19-2010 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme (Post 109853)
I also think it emasculating to call a female id'd Butch he and him when they have not asked to be called that. BUT I will find another word to convey what I am saying. I think it goes a hell of a lot deeper than just being disrespectful, thoughtless and rude in either instance. Both are pointedly attacking gender.

I'm sorry for mis speaking. I apologize.

See I too have used this word to describe what you are saying, and getting the info from the horses mouth made it true so now I am fucking confused.:spider:

SuperFemme 05-19-2010 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medusa (Post 109852)
I know Im off topic again but this discussion is amazing and Im now wondering if anyone would find a thread about the binary of language and examples thereof interesting?
Not just in relation to gender but how the word "prissy" is seen in on way and the word "brusque" is seen in another.

God yes!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rufusboi (Post 109856)
I refuse to give a pronoun that much power over me.

Rufus

Good for you!

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow (Post 109860)
See I too have used this word to describe what you are saying, and getting the info from the horses mouth made it true so now I am fucking confused.:spider:

Right? But if it is the wrong word, I shall not use it again. I didn't know that was how it was being interpreted at all. Again, my apologies.

Jett 05-19-2010 12:22 PM

Deleting... because frankly... it's tired, lol.

SuperFemme 05-19-2010 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metropolis (Post 109864)
In other words... using "she" as if an effective means to lessen someones stature and strength- weakening of their character (emasculation)...

Isn't it if that is not how they identify? I *get it*. I'll not use the word again. Let's move along, ok?

BullDog 05-19-2010 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metropolis (Post 109849)
I know you're not asking me SF, but I'd say it is disrespectful, thoughtless rude etc.

I agree the person using it probably is attempting to emasculate... but in that not only insulting male ID but female ID by using their pronoun as if it is an "emasculator".

And to agree that's what it does... is to agree it's a feminizing pronoun.

In a nutshell... saying "she" emasculates someone is saying butches who use it by choice are not masculine.

Which is just another form of masculinity=male.

Peace,
Metro

Yes this is how I see it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme (Post 109853)
I also think it emasculating to call a female id'd Butch he and him when they have not asked to be called that. BUT I will find another word to convey what I am saying. I think it goes a hell of a lot deeper than just being disrespectful, thoughtless and rude in either instance. Both are pointedly attacking gender.

I'm sorry for mis speaking. I apologize.

I can see this as well. I think it was Cyclopea who said earlier that it felt like we were being neutered when called He by default and I agreed with her. That's kind of the same thing you are saying, only it's using a different word.

I do object to seeing masculine used in ways to signify non-female or non-woman. I don't care for masculine-identified because it seems to signify non-female, non-woman. At the same time, there are big limitations in language for people to use to describe themselves in non-binary terms.

I am really not trying to be picky, but She can be just as masculine as He in my opinion.

Adele, I really didn't take this as coming from you personally. Other people were talking about that it and people use emasculate and feminize as terms a lot when referring to butch, but thank you. You are always very considerate.

Jett 05-19-2010 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medusa (Post 109852)
I know Im off topic again but this discussion is amazing and Im now wondering if anyone would find a thread about the binary of language and examples thereof interesting?
Not just in relation to gender but how the word "prissy" is seen in on way and the word "brusque" is seen in another.

Sounds interesting... yep.

Jett 05-19-2010 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme (Post 109867)
Isn't it if that is not how they identify? I *get it*. I'll not use the word again. Let's move along, ok?

Ah yeah... I had already deleted that post to "move along".

And you can use the word if you want, that's not up to me... I was just responding to your bringing it up and asking questions specifically about it and giving my perspective (and also- I was replying to Rufusboi)

SuperFemme 05-19-2010 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog (Post 109870)
I can see this as well. I think it was Cyclopedea who said earlier that it felt like we were being neutered when called He by default and I agreed with her. That's kind of the same thing you are saying, only it's not using a different word.

I do object to seeing masculine used in ways to signify non-female or non-woman. I don't care for masculine-identified because it seems to signify non-female, non-woman. At the same time, there are big limitations in language for people to use to describe themselves in non-binary terms.

I am really not trying to be picky, but She can be just as masculine as He in my opinion.

Adele, I really didn't take this as coming from you personally. Other people were talking about that it and people use emasculate and feminize as terms a lot when referring to butch, but thank you. You are always very considerate.

I agree that She can be just as masculine. Maybe one day language will catch up to reality? I sure hope so. A girl can only stick her foot in her mouth so many times without getting crud mouth.

JustJo 05-19-2010 12:38 PM

I've been reading this thread all along...learning alot, questioning alot...

For me, the crux of the whole matter is intentionality. If I make an honest mistake in pronoun use, or even with someone's name, and apologize and correct, then I think most folks are okay with that. Heck, I get "he'd" in my work life....my name is Jo and I have a deep voice, and most of my co-workers have never seen me since I work virtually. Many have thought they were meeting "Joe" at our annual company meeting (which has led to some pretty funny conversations btw...). I laugh it off because, frankly, I don't care. It's a misunderstanding, nothing more.

I'm astounded to read about some of the nastiness though....telling femmes that they're acting "too butch", intentionally calling an ex by the opposite pronoun or a given name to purposefully disrespect them. The issue, for me anyway, isn't whether I accidentally call someone "hy" that uses "she" or vice versa. The issue is if we are using gender, or sexual preferences, as a way to beat each other over the head out of sheer nastiness.

Again, just for me...this sounds like middle-school bullying whereby the vicious kids spotted and zeroed in on the sore spot in order to victimize and belittle ....the short one, the fat one, the nerdy one, the "fill in the blank" one. For me, that's different from misogyny...that's just plain mean.


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