You're right, these arguments do keep coming up, and that is worth examining, but I want to get back to lesbian pride too.


Cheryl: I think some things have gotten jumbled up here and I would like to do my best to handle them as gently and respectfully as I am able.

The second half of my quote was my response to Chazz's suggestion that we eliminate gender altogether. Whether that suggestion was made in jest or not, I am not sure. However, it was an option I did not consider so my comment that it was all i was taking from the conversation was meant to imply that it was the idea I intended to take some time to think about. I apologize for not being clearer about that, I can see how that might have been misinterpreted to mean something else.

I feel the need to point out that gender studies was one of my two minors. I don't know what happened that made you believe it was my field of study, but I'm sure I mentioned it somewhere so I"m sure it was just an honest mistake. No biggie, I spent four years taking the classes and debating with others, writing my papers, being praised, and being criticized just like everyone else in my class. I don't claim to be an expert, just a normal person who learned some stuff that made me think critically about some things.




Heart, I'm sorry this conversation is so draining on you. I can sympathize with that feeling, as I'm not feeling particularly buoyant about this exchange, myself. To be quite frank, I'm not here to argue, that's not who I am, and not what I am about. I don't want to be the bad guy here. I feel I have worked very hard to present my points without insult and in a calm manner.


I think I am finally beginning to understand where the disconnect is happening here. You are correct, I did say that trans people experience dysphoria "on top of" the rampant misogyny of a patriarchal society. That was a poor choice of words on my part, and I could see how it can be viewed as erasing language. I did not mean at all to imply that this is the pinnacle of oppression, I just didn't take the time to reinforce all of the things that lesbians and women go through. That was an oversight on my part and you were right to remind me of that. Maybe I've gotten so used to carrying that burden around that I forget to acknowledge that it's there. I will continue to keep this in the back of my mind, but for now I don't think I can say much more that would be coherent as I am still processing it.


Again, you have a very valid point here. I have to repeat what I've said before, it is possible that I can't see the forest for the trees. There are many things that are important to me and women's rights is most assuredly one of those things. I got off on a tangent, sure, but I have more than enough passion to fight for more than one thing.




I also hope (as do you and Cheryl) that we can bring this back around to lesbian pride, as that's what I made such a big fuss over in the first place. I was the first to complain about getting off topic, and now I've gone and derailed it myself. For that i apologize not only to you both, but to everyone who came to this thread and was disappointed by what they found. I hope I've responded to your concerns in a way that works for both of us and will help us get back to what we originally came here for.

What I'm missing is why anyone would claim a genderless lesbian ID. I don't get it.

But it is also used as a gender identity. At one time, and still pervasively, sex and gender were used interchangeably as though they were one and the same. But if you allow for a non-binary gender system, then you have to allow for the possibility that there will be adult females who are not women, who are, for instance, butch.

The language of sex and gender has been so tightly interwoven, so tightly tied to a binary system, that trying to pull them apart can create these sorts of usage stumbling blocks.

Actually it is very different.... One can identify as female and be very proud of that... and not identify as woman. Check the OED... two completely different definitions.

I was not discussing identity. I should have made that clear.

Neither am I. I am talking the English language. Woman and female, by definition, are two different things.

Got it. Yes, I understand that a person can ID as butch as a gender. But how does that equate to being a genderless lesbian?

According to Websters:

Definition of WOMAN
1
a : an adult female person

Definition of FEMALE
1
a (1) : of, relating to, or being the sex that bears young or produces eggs (2) : pistillate

b (1) : composed of members of the female sex <the female population> (2) : characteristic of girls or women <composed for female voices> <a female name>

um *hand up*.. I do know people who ID as female but of no particular gender except their own individual thang AND a lesbian. Because they see lesbian as primarily female-female, not woman-woman (but the bulk of which is inclusive of woman-woman).

Not trying to make a stink here, but what is OED? I am familiar with the definitions Cheryl gave. Please show me what you are talking about.

If one identifies proudly as female, then what is it about "women" that one is rejecting?

the oxford english dictionary.

The origin of woman is wif-man in Old English as it states in the Oxford English Dictionary. Wif in Old English meant woman. It also indicated how a female made a living. A fish-wif was a female who sold fish. Wif-man evolved into wife-man and then into woman.

I take language very seriously. I identify strongly as female and not as woman. Now, given, this is directly from the OED and you may find other explanations elsewhere. But I take the OED at it's word and it describes itself as the "definitive record of the English language"

Ever listen to that show A Way With Words? Love it!

I have great pride in being female, lesbian and a woman as a butch. coalescing as one (growing together with my female masculinity) as defined.

However- many butches do have issues with woman, I think, due to life long battles with the societal definitions (norms) and expectations put upon women within our patriarchal structures. Including all of the oppression and discrimination toward women in US society. But, I can't speak for others on this really.

But it's not just butches that have issues with the definitions and expectations put upon women by patriarchy. It's all sorts of women - queer, straight, trans, butch, femme, andro, etc. One of my main points here is that woman itself is transgressive in the context of patriarchy.

So, feminism sets out to reclaim the meaning of "woman" and empower what it means to be a woman.

Gender theory sets out to deconstruct the concept of binary gender altogether.

Both movements have made contributions and both have blind spots.

It's no secret that I am inclined towards the re-defining/reclaiming camp.
One of the concerns I have with the gender theory camp (I am simplifying for the sake of discussion), is that deconstructing the gender binaries of man/woman has not changed or prevented the over-valuing of male/masculine gender constructs/identities, and the under-valuing of female/feminine ones. Sexism/misogyny is still rampant and unexamined, and the lack of feminist analysis makes that dangerous, (which was one of my main concerns about Butch Voices).

Heart

Warning this is kind of long, so if you get bored, skip it..LOL...


I had really hoped when I saw this thread appear, it would not become as Kobi stated early on "yet another argument about definitions/ terminology" ( I paraphrased, sorry, not a direct quote). Of course, it did. Of course, just about every discussion on this site ( or other similar sites) will become a breaking down of terms, as our language keeps changing/ evolving/ whatever it is doing, to give a medium to "new" ways of looking at things.

To my understanding, "gender theory" came from the feminist movement to
help folks who weren't clearly and happily 100% feminine or masculine as defined by today's standard dictionaries and societal descriptions. It was a tool to give a voice to folks who were being oppressed by the nature of their differences. It became a commonplace addendum to Women's Studies courses nationwide. I think somehow along the way, it began to usurp women's studies, when it began to redefine "man", "woman" and all of the words that have previously defined "what" as human beings, we are.

Chazz made a list early on that while I think was a pretty good basic list of parts of speech was not exactly clear as to "female/woman":

"
female/woman (noun) = sex/biology
male/man (noun) = sex/biology

lesbian (noun) = a woman of same sex, sexual orientation

feminine/masculine (adj.) = gender

femme (noun) = female lesbian
butch (noun) = female lesbian who expresses female "masculinity"

transgender (verb) = moving along a gender continuum.

transgender person (noun) = a person of either sex, who may be lesbian, gay or straight. "

Now, for ME, the only difference I see is that Man= Adult Male , Woman= Adult Female.

The language of sex/ biology does not change. A Man IS Male. A Woman IS female. They may or may not be masculine or feminine, this part I get and it has been so since time began.

Please bear with me here, as I am trying to just process all of this:

I hate the term CIS. I do not understand the continued use of the term "trans" after a person has transitioned. I don't comprehend how a lesbian is no longer a woman/ female who partners with women/ females. I don't know when transsexual became transgender, but I see it used this way a lot. I don't know why some transgendered folks get mad at that term while others use it freely. I don't know why some folks see the origin and "ownership" of the term butch as now belonging to men, when the only time I have heard men use it in reference to one another is in a descriptive ( and usually objectifying) way "he's so butch". They don't use it like lesbians do, in relation to dynamics or as is often done here, as a gender preference. I have honestly never heard men use "femme/ fem" to describe another man, so I guess that one is safely ours.

This thread/ discussion/ semantics gymnastics has given me a lot to think about and a lot of headaches. I had hoped we would get to the point where we could just be proud of where we are today as lesbians/ dykes. Women who love women. Females who love females. We are butches/femmes/andros/tweeners and feminist based or not. We are not men or male. We are not men haters, we just ain't them.

We got a lot of shit during the "womens movement". They ( hetero women) saw lesbians/ homosexual women as a threat to their validity. B-F lesbians got shit from other dykes who saw the masculine female as a threat to "their" validity, a portrayal of heterosexuals. Gay men, by and large just didn't care one way or another, because women, generally speaking, were not a form to be contended with either as a mate or as competition. Heterosexual men just assume we are in need of the right man or at some point the object their sexual desire or hatred.

So, at least for me, I do have pride today in being a butch lesbian. I have stuck out all of these "wars" and am still here. Still butch/ masculine female/woman. Still a woman loving women. I have allies today. I AM an ally today and it does not threaten me. I do not have to change the English language to make it all make sense to me. It's a simple practice called live and let live.

I have read all of this and this discussion spilled over into other threads: gatekeeping and the redefining queer community threads. I see folks express outrage at the WBW policy of MWMF and I wonder what would it look like if that had become the norm instead of "cis" and "trans".
WBW = women born women
WBM= women born men
MBW= Men born women
MBM= men born men

For me, it would mean that transwomen would be welcome at womens events. Transmen would be welcome at mens events. For me, it's more about who we are than whom we were/are perceived to be.

The enormity of "gender theory" with all of its nuances and ramifications is far too great to take on without the commitment to years of study and discussions like this one. Without the equal footing of a classroom environment, on going education, with each "new" theory being tossed out equally to each participant, I don't see it being given justice in forums like this. That doesn't mean we don't talk about it. It simply means we give one another space and time to process it all while trying to digest how it affects "me" ( each of the "mes" engaging) and how it in turn affects "US". The greater US, the community and then how we affect the world at large whom we are trying to engage with for the ultimate result hopefully being an end to the "oppressions" of sex and gender. Isn't that the goal?

We will never be a united front as long until we clearly define what those oppressions are. We will never define them if we continually change the language. I think that is what Chazz may have meant when she stated that "somewhere the patriarchy is chuckling". Divide and conquer is the oldest trick in the book. It is also, the most effective.

I think this in part is why the reaction to "owning" Lesbian as women who love women is so important. When WE don't know who/ what we are, how can we defend ourselves against our opprsessors who very clearly deny us equality regardless of who/what we are ? We are the big group of "them" in their eyes. Them who keep arguing among themselves and pose no real threat.

I think it important to own who we are and what our needs are. I am a lesbian. I want to be allowed the same rights and privileges as heterosexual people. I am a woman. I want equal pay and equal treatment to men. I wear mens clothes. I want to be able to dress appropriately for any given situation ( ie: sporting events where men wear pants... why should a woman wear a skirt to play the same sport?) I keep my hair short, in a traditionally male hairstyle. Why should that matter? Why should I have to change the language of who I am because of a haircut or clothes or whether I prefer power tools to blowdryers? I want to be able to proudly say, I am a woman, I am a lesbian, I wear these clothes and this hairstyle and like saws. AND I deserve by the very breath I take to be treated equally in the eyes of the laws of this country to a man who is allowed to dress appropriately for his task, to love women ( cause they rock) and to comb his hair any fucking way he wants. I want equal power to fuck whom I want and equal pay for the work I do. That woman over there... she likes hello kitty and stilhettos. SHE deserves equal pay for the work she does and btw, she ALSO gets to choose whom and how she fucks.

This conversation started as soon as women and men could speak to one another. There has always been eniquity. There has always been a "difference". There has always been more power and more space taken by men. Men, afterall, were the "stronger" of the sexes. This however is becoming an increasingly moreso case by case than an overall statement.

Men are now in what was traditionally the gay womens community. (* Which I don't see as a "bad" thing and which is why I do not see this as a lesbian website, sorry, I just disagree with that sentiment. I also still do not approve of men in women only space, however.*) I see this clearly as a Queer community in the very definition of queer. We are an odd bunch. AND, we are an odd bunch who are trying to maintain peace and understanding in a time where even our definitions of ourselves and nomenclature is up for grabs. Of this, I am proud. We will not always see eye to eye, but we will keep trying.

Whew. Deep breath.... In with the love... outtttt with the jive.. I can understand why so many females may not like the Oxford/ Male/ Biblical centric definitions of "woman". I don't like it either. I get it. What I also get, is that without reclaiming power in their words, we can not show them the errors they have made. They will continue to look at us and in a glance sum us up as ... "hmm.. female.. adult... woman.. weaker.. should be in a dress.. barefoot/ pregnant." While we can and will SHOW that we are... "at a glance" ... "female.... adult... grown ass woman... strong.. wearing whatever or nothing at all... teaching children.... building houses... running organizations.... getting elected... a force that is equal..."

A lot has changed since Oxford or the bible defined woman. We are still women even if we aren't wives, so that definition holds no weight any longer. Just like men are still male even in a dress ( until and unless they no longer are). Hell, everyone wore dresses until pants were invented.

I think I am more clear on the arguements regarding masculine and feminine and who these gender qualifiers should and should not be owned by, than the breaking down of Man/Male and Woman/ Female. I see everyone on this planet exhibiting qualities that are traditionally feminine or masculine at some point in time, which to me is PERFECTLY NORMAL.

Being a proud lesbian means being a proud woman/female. A proud woman/female who loves other women/females. For me, it is just that simple. The rest of this, for me, is another conversation. One I have been involved with on different levels and will continue to be involved with. I have no investment personally in how an individual defines or labels themselves unless they fall into the three F rule. ( Feeding me, Fucking me or Financing me). I will continue to support my allies in whatever aspect of oppression they are facing. I will not however, change the definition of lesbian to include women/ females who love men. I am sorry, that is a leap this old dyke just ain't ready to take.

I am hoping this came across without being judgeymental because I'm really not. I am just trying to get it.

Peace.

Without having a subscription to the OED and not owning a copy, what is the current definition of "woman". I am aware that the OED gives probably the most accurate origins of words and you have given a good historical definition/ origin. I am curious and perhaps you could help me, with what they use as the current definition.

Thanks.

I am a woman who loves with transmen, genderqueers and butch lesbians and still identifies as a lesbian. Do I belong here? I don't know, and there seems to be a lot of emotion and opinion surrounding it. I thought I did, but from this thread and other conversations I've had, I'm starting to get the impression that I do not. Am I welcome here?

I want to be a proud lesbian, so who do I ask for permission?

I may try to circle back later to talk more about language because I find it interesting. But for the moment I want to say that ScandalAndy's question is one that has been bouncing around boards like these, either spoken or unspoken, for many years.

I understand the desire for clear-cut, absolute, entirely predictable definitions but I think we you are talking about things as decidedly non clear-cut, absolute and predictable as identity and sexuality you have to allow for some wiggle room. I have seen femmes who choose to identify as queer rather than lesbian because they date transmen and I've seen femmes who continue to identify as lesbian because it is part of them. I think both make sense and it comes down to a matter of how the individual femme relates to her own identity.

I don't see that it hurts our community identity or our struggle for equal rights to allow for this wiggle room.

You get to ID however you choose and however you define it. We all do. Do you really need me or anyone else to give you permission? I hope you're being sarcastic.

The classic definition of lesbian is a woman/female who partners romantically and sexually with women/females. As usual, not everyone agrees, of course. If you need to give yourself permission, ask yourself where you fit into that definition.