i think it sucks that most often times when a conversation like this goes down because a person decides they want to impression upon a community some kind of ism that works for them, and they go into defensive mode and conveinently pull out their native american status. i for one find it offensive and a form of deflection that enables them to be less accountable for their ist and ism views.

however beautiful Arizona may be, i commend our community members for packing up their chuck wagons and leaving the bullshit behind. it had to be a strategically rough decision and i for one feel lots of admiration for their actions to get the hell out of a state that racially profiles their citizens and their tourist visitors!!!

ohhhh and Arizona has always been a racist state...in 1991 the governor there decided to no longer recognize martin luther king day. i think his name was Mecham!!! ohhh and russell pearce i think is his name, an Arizona law maker that supports the white supremacy group National Alliance. i think they cosponsored and helped write the bill.

Public Enemy did a song about it back in the 90's...i heard the first time when i went to see them in atlanta.

Which leads me to wonder if ALL of the other *white* Presidents were ever investigated as much as our Black President.

I don't believe W was ever asked for his papers, or proof of birth cerficicate.

Racial profiling became a top priority once our President was black, it just got worse.

:2cents:

I live in Texas and would have mixed feelings about a thread aimed at boycotting Texas because I do love my state. But sometimes being on the side of justice is to be at odds with the government and the majority of citizens within one's home state. Texas has passed some terrible laws and is capable of passing a law very similar to this one. Despite my love love love of my state, I would support any measure that would bring a greater level of justice to my home. To me that means staying and fighting injustice as long as my life and livelihood are not at severe risk. I cannot defend Texas when it comes to state-sanctioned racism, xenophobia, religious intolerance, homophobic and transphobic intolerance, the death penalty, the arrest of the homeless, the criminalization of poverty, the lack of services for the mentally ill, the state of the prison system, the revisionist and propaganda-filled history taught in our public schools, the fundamentalist religious beliefs that embrace intolerance, bigotry and violence. I love my state and would be sensitive to a thread criticizing Texas or threatening the economic well-being of this state, but I hold justice as a higher value than state pride. Many people have chosen to leave Arizona rather than be faced with the very real dangers of continuing to live there, but I would encourage anybody who feels privileged enough to stay in the state to really work their hardest toward making it a just, compassionate, neighborly place to live and/or visit rather than putting one's effort into defending the truly indefensible actions of arizona's racist policies.

It's the people who stay who have the most power to use their power as voters, as citizens and as consumers to make Arizona (or any other home state) a place of justice, equality and neighborliness.

"I love America more than any other country in this world, and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually."

-James Baldwin

I want Arizona to feel the full economic effects of choosing racial injustice and intolerance and I hope the effects are palpable and that their cause is clearly discernible.

I feel the same way about Texas. That's the only way a capitalist democracy can move toward justice when the majority of the state votes for a xenophobic and racist government.

When people vote to support racist government in order to have more for themselves. That is truly selfish. And for people who fought against these laws, I hope they continue to fight for justice. Sometimes justice means acknowledging that you yourself do not deserve the biggest cut of meat. Sometimes justice means giving up privilege and learning to share. It means advocating for equality even if doing so means you yourself have to give up some privilege.

Yeah, me too. If there were less haters then Brewer couldn't get enough votes to win re-election and this terrible law would never have passed.

Brewer's scum for more than just 1070, though. Local reporters have been investigating her and her office's connections to private prison firms. It seems that her administration is deeply connected with those firms. Not only are they working to privatize all of the prisons, they were connected to the writing of 1070, which gives them more business in the private prisons they already have in the state. Bottom line - 1070 is all about putting money in Brewer's cronies pockets. Typical republican crap - money matters and screw everything and everyone else.

Kobi,

I agree with your point - this issue is not a simple one; it is indeed very complex. My post was neither meant to be an exhaustive discourse nor a simplifying of an multi-layered socio-economic & global issue. It was meant only to convey, in a neutral tone, my opinion on the subject of boycotting Arizona and to express my very passionate concerns about the dangerous and pervasive beliefs held by a huge portion of our population about undocumented people.

An important sidebar comment: I believe strongly in the importance of socialized medicine and believe that every person (regardless of race, ethnicity, class, age, ability, religious belief, gender, gender identity or sexual orientation, immigration status OR insurance coverage) has a right to medical care. Full stop, no exceptions.

I also agree with what I think you were saying - that there are always exceptions to the rule.

That is why I did not say (for example):
No Undocumented Immigrants ever (have ever, will ever) have recourse to public funds and support (housing, disability, food stamps etc).

I don't believe in, and I try hard not to make statements that are absolutes.
Absolutes beg exceptions.

While I appreciate your attempt to debunk my myth-debunking :)
I have to point out that the news article you cite is not about an undocumented person receiving benefits, it is about a person who arrived in the country as asylum seeker who was ultimately granted legal status. In the interim (between her arrival, first denial and ultimate success at obtaining status) she was never illegal or undocumented. She was documented from the moment she applied for asylum.

In the article she is cited as being "illegal", the use of "illegal" is irresponsible and inaccurate journalism. Mrs. Onyango went through an extensive and lengthy legal system which included a denial, a deportation order and legal appeals which lasted over ten years, during which time she was not granted public housing nor disability support.
She was, however, given medical care when she had a medical emergency but then went on to live in homeless shelters and battled a crippling disease. I, for one, am incredibly relieved that at some hospital in Boston they did NOT throw her out on the street when she was most in need.

Regardless, as I said, there are always exceptions to absolutes.
I'm quite sure someone else on this forum could come in here and tell me that they know someone who knows someone who illegally crossed a border and managed to trick several government social services agencies and obtain a free house and benefits, and lived the life of reilly at the US tax payers expense.

My opinions about the pervasiveness and dangerousness of these myths (as I see them) is based on my personal and professional experience.
*I* have personally been on the sharp side of immigration bureaucracy and I have worked with 1000s of people from around the world in similar (and FAR FAR FAR WORSE) situations than my own.

The belief that all immigrants are economic migrants determined to swindle honest hardworking "legal" citizens from their resources is prevalent not only in the US but also UK, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Australia (to name but a few countries).
I think it is scary and I believe the truths of these beliefs need to be redressed.
To my mind, Arizona's legislation embodies all that I find most disturbing about these beliefs.

As to boycotting a place, you are quite right, if I were to boycott every state and nation that has legislation on their books that I find unjust - I don't know where in the world I could live (never mind travel as a tourist). I can not boycott every state nor every nation; just as I can not fight for every political or ideological belief I have - I have to pick & choose my battles, my boycotts and which "issues" I expend my resources on.

Immigration Rights (which to my mind exemplifies my beliefs about basic human rights) - is one (of a few) that I choose.

ps. my tone isn't intended to be holier than thou or holier than anyone, but I accept that my voice can be read that way, particularly when I dive in to a topic I so passionately care about.

The articles we all posted about what was going Arizona contain nothing but facts, what your Governor did, tried to do and has been doing is something we did not make up, lie about, and distort. When cody came upon this thread he was clueless to what was going on in his own state. Here is the exchange:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nat http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...s/viewpost.gif
Panelists: Arizona SB 1070 has had profound impact on Native Americans

since the bill became law, racism has become legitimized, and violence against Native peoples "is more blatant than ever." Recently, "tribal members out in the desert chopping wood have been handcuffed and beaten because they didn't have any identification on them," he said. Although the people were on their tribal land, he noted, "somehow the border patrol saw this as a legitimate way to detain people and abuse people violently."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...s/viewpost.gif



is this happening here in az? i live here and watch the news daily.. ive heard of no such thing. i also have many native american friends that well most of them like the seperation of themselfs not being clumped in. i dont care for the law much but there are alot of untruths flying around about it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cody http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...s/viewpost.gif
is this happening here in az? i live here and watch the news daily.. ive heard of no such thing. i also have many native american friends that well most of them like the seperation of themselfs not being clumped in. i dont care for the law much but there are alot of untruths flying around about it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtLastHome http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...s/viewpost.gif



The article is by Native American spokespeople and stems from a panel of Native Americans as part of a discussion among Native activist leaders. It isn't from a news broadcast depicting one specific news event.

Now, I do remember that Gov. Brewer did take back her initial statements about headless bodies in the desert due to criminal Latino immigrants a couple of months back. That seemed to be a rumor and entirely false. Good she cleared that up.


He dismissed it by comparing it to a one squeaky wheel being overheard in a group of wheels.


Then this morning he comes in and says

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...s/viewpost.gif



gawd i dont like this thread... az is my home and i love it.. i dont always like what the gov. does here.. but there is so much more to this state that i will not boycot.. also there are still alot of unthuths about this..


Now, had he read the whole thread from its inception he would see that it was started to discuss what was happening (truths) in AZ with its law that lead and would of lead to racial profiling. People aren't saying everyone in AZ should perish, die, or disappear. We aren't denying it's beauty and ethnic history.

What we did do is discuss what everyone should be discussing when it comes to legal human rights. Once we turn a blind eye to a law that profiles one particular *look* of people we are headed for some incredible fucked up trouble.

No one is jumping Cody or saying Cody shouldn't be here etc etc. What I do see is people who are passionate express themselves about what is going on and its injustice.

It kills me when someone says something that is going to get an unpopular response use the deflective *I am getting piled up on* defense.

FFS cody came up in here using terms such as "that look" and brushing it off with the claims of Native American heritage and state love etc etc. It's ridiculous to cry *pile on* when you say something that may or may not be read as offensive.

It would be as ridiculous if I went to the nilla there and said:

"gawd i dont like this thread... BDSM is my life and i love it.. i dont always like what the all the play parties and there different rules.. but there is so much more to BDSM that ya'll don't know about so why do you need this space?.. also there are still alot of unthuths about this... WOW how rude."

I am pretty sure and I would expect my ass would get handed to me for coming up in a space and pointing my finger at folks.

I am no holier than though, hell I am nowhere close to this term, what I am is passionate about this matter not only because it's the right thing to do, but it affects me since I am one of those people this state considers undesirable.

Oh as for the economic demise wished upon your state- Sometimes we need to give up things to get what we must have. I would rather have nothing then stand by and watch someone stripped of their human rights, I sometimes envy those who pick comfort over what is right, till we are all willing to hurt a lil, bleed a lil, lose a lil, then nothing is ever going to change.

I'll agree to disagree.... You call it being passionate, I see it as something else .



My comment about the economic demise wished upon this state has nothing to do with me personally. I can go anywhere; I'm not tied here, I don't have family here. This is not to say I would run away, but I do have other options if things get crazy.

I do stand up for human rights, and I'm rather vocal about it. My point was that I'm concerned about the people you all claim to be so concerned about. What will happen to THEM if Arizona collapses? Do you think they'll just dust themselves off and start over??? Do you really think an economic collapse of this state is going to magically fix everything?

i boycotted Colorado to the best of my ability back when amendment 2 was presented. for a person that enjoys what Colorado has to offer winter and summer i frequented the state during vacation time. i am sure there are many people here that remember that boycott that the gay community organized back then and i also can remember people in our community moving from there. the gay bashing was out of hand and it was all over the news. do ya'll remember that???

i will boycott Arizona to the best of my ability.

as far as trying to compare the Ohio Easton area take over to the legislation that was created by the citizens and lawmakers of Arizona it really doesn't seem logical. it feels reachy.

i am never a fan of the "pile up" accusations. it seems to me if someone boasts an unpopular opinion then they should be able to deal with others coming in here and stating what they think about it without judgment from the poster or the posters supporters.

Kats,

Is it Americans who believe that their country is "empathetic and compassionate" (your last sentence in post 866)?

I have to say that, as a Canadian, those are two descriptors that no one I know would ever attach to the USA.

Many people around the world are enraged at the LACK of empathy and compassion demonstrated by some USA policies and laws -- especially when it comes to immigration, war, poverty, social issues, and equality in general.

Well, now you are referring to citizens of your country as empathetic and compassionate and not the country itself which is a much different sentiment than in your previous post, #866.

As for going through the process with your ex-husband of USA immigration, at least you were allowed the process.

I am denied the ability to immigrate, work and live with my husband--in the USA--based on the unjust laws of your country.

He's my husband, not partner.

Whether or not it was easy, you had the right to sponsor your ex for immigration. My husband does not have that same right.



As for the "empathetic and compassionate" -- your earlier post posited that the USA -- as a country -- is characterized by these qualities--your next post said the people have these characteristices--that is quite a difference and makes me wonder what qualities of the USA actually DO demonstrate these traits when the opposite appears to be true in so many of its policies!

I hope this clarified my earlier response.

I think I misread your question regarding my earlier post, so I edited my response quite a bit to, hopefully, clarify myself; I am confused that someone from our community--especially--would consider the USA "empathetic" and "compassionate" when so many of its laws/policies are in direct opposition to these qualities and have, actually, directly and negatively impacted our lives.

Just to let you know, it isn't just same sex marriages that have immigration issues. My husband is trans, and access to immigration rights are not a given based on transition.

//sorry for getting a bit off topic, AZ immig thread!//

Since you are half-native American (how you pulled off blue-eyed with one Native American parent given that the blue-eyed allele is not endemic to the native population is an issue I'll leave for another time) let me pose this question to you:

You are driving down the street. One of Tucson's finest pulls you over and, given that you are half native and thus would share SOME phenotype traits with the people who are the visual targets of these laws, demands that you do more than just prove you have a license to drive but that you were born in this state. How do you feel? You don't have your birth certificate with you (I'm not blue-eyed and, as far as I know, am nothing more interesting than simply a black American but I don't carry MY birth certificate with me, do you?) and so he then starts to presume you are in the country without proper documentation. NOW are you disturbed by the implications of this law?

One can make the statement that the people of Arizona elected the governor who has become the face of the proponents of this law AFTER she had told lies about beheadings in the desert as a means of justifying this laws draconian tenor without 'bashing' the law. One can boycott the state--as much as that is possible--without 'bashing' anyone.

Okay, here we get into a problem. Let's be clear, the 'outsiders' here are anyone whose ancestors were NOT here 2000 years ago. The relevant regions around the border have been inhabited since 9000 BCE (11,000 years ago). The people who are being termed 'illegals' are the descendants of those people. The border between Mexico and the United States has only existed since the mid-19th century. This is not enough time for the population north of the border to have diverged from that south of the border. This means that the two populations are going to be both genetically and phenotypically identical to one another. The problem, as I see it, is that this law targets American citizens who happen to share a phenotype with people who live one mile south of the border.

Laws have consequences. Arizona passed this law and now Hispanics are leaving the state (a quite sensible response if you ask me--I know that if Oregon passed a similar law targeting blacks, I'd be looking for the exits because this kind of thing *never* turns out well). This may be what the proponents of this law, its supporters and apologists believe that they want. However, I think that in a year or two, they may discover that the law of unintended consequences is as irresistible as gravity. Right now, many may be saying "and good riddance" as Hispanic families drive away. However, each family that leaves AZ is money flowing out of AZ. Those are sales tax dollars that aren't being collected. Those are dollars that are not being spent at restaurants, supermarkets, gas stations, and convenience stores. At last estimate ~100,000 Hispanics have left the state since this law has passed. That is going to start to add up. What's more, these things tend to have feedback loops which play out like this:

Law gets passed, so Hispanics leave the state. This means their money leaves the state with them. So businesses have to lay off some people. The layoffs get blamed on Hispanics who remain in the state so some *new* punitive law is passed. So more Hispanics leave the state. Which causes more economic hardship, which gets blamed on the remaining Hispanics, who leave the state, which causes yet more hardship...

I may be wrong about this. It may play out differently but right now, it appears to be playing out more or less in this fashion. Be careful for what you wish or vote in favor of, you just might get it.

Cheers
Aj

The very same thing could be said about, say, the states south of the Mason-Dixon line prior to the end of Jim Crow. Not *everyone* in the state supported those laws--the 30 - 50 percent of those states that were black, for instance, largely did not support segregation laws targeting them. Not all of the whites in those states supported those laws. NEITHER of that actually matters all that much on a day-to-day basis. Precisely how much good does it do to know that not all people in the state support SB 1070 if one is legally driving down the street, gets pulled over for a broken tail light and is then asked for their birth certificate and, when it turns out one is not in possession of it, one is detained? In that moment, as you are put into the police car, how much do you think it matters to know that not everyone supports the law? The law is in force, you are feeling the full effect of the law, do you think it helps to know that your neighbor doesn't support it?

Cheers
Aj

Well the drug cartel will probabbly still be there, along with the slaves her campaign contributors have...So the gov and her cronies won't run out of those cushie gov. prison jobs. I am being treated like a terrorist and illegal now and I don't have to have the look. The TSA protocols will probabbly spread to trains and buses, and I'll need a license to grow tomatoes in my own backyard soon.

I'm gonna add my $.02 even though I hadn't planned on coming back here. I live in Tucson, AZ and raise my daughters in a co-parenting situation (with my ex-husband) and will continue to do so until they are both graduated from high school. I have lived here since January of 1995 and have seen many changes in this once very quiet pueblo town. While most of Tucson is very liberal (as opposed to Phoenix which tends to be rather conservative) we do have pockets of very uber-conservative, republican, religious right communities...aka: the Jan Brewer/Jesse Kelly pack.

In my 15+ years here I have noticed one major theme present when grappling with border/immigration/human rights issues, and that is fear based tactics as a means of control by those in power. As a state situated directly on the Mexico-US border we deal with racially infused situations on a daily basis. Right now the majority of Tucson is staunchly opposed to SB1070. At the last rally I attended where over 3,000 opponents marched in support of those who do not appear "white" only a dozen or so in favor of SB1070 turned out to voice their opinion. Tucson is vehement in its opposition and I would challenge anyone who thinks otherwise. Local business as well as many corporately owned organizations have come forward in a unified stance against 1070. Signs stating "we do not support hate" with a large SB1070 x'ed out are in nearly every window of every store in town. Even the Tucson Police Department has declared their opposition by refusing to ask for anyone's papers based on 1070's "probable cause" mandate.

Brewer is a complete idiot and I refuse to even discuss her policies because she bases and reinforces them from a place of fear and hate...two things I have zero tolerance for...empathy for the person who embodies their attributes, but not tolerance of. The sheriff has proven mental health issues and should not be in office, but has his hands in the pockets of Big Money and also has a large following of fear mongers who are at his beck and call. I have met Jesse Kelly and the man has not a properly firing neuron in his brain.

As someone earlier stated, AZ is not "my" state, it just happens to be the state I currently live in. Just as I have also lived in NY, California and Arkansas and will hopefully live somewhere on the west coast again in a few years. I do not adopt the mentality spewed forth by our current legislature nor does the majority of the town I live in. Do I support a boycott by the rest of my country/continent/planet...hell ya! We all will feel the inevitable pocketbook pinch but for the most part, we can take it. Standing idly by looking naive and confused or loading up your house with guns and surrounding your property with barbed is your right...but it is not how I choose to live. This state was inhabited by my brown friends long before you or I got here, and I for one am appalled at how these so called "border negotiations" have further ostracized and disenfranchised the AZ/Mexico populous from one another. SB1070 is not the answer and is not supported by Tucson, AZ. Boycott away!