I was asking for my own knowledge to try to understand where Koni is coming from, not to hear other's go off on a soapbox. Enjoy your day.

I don't even know where to start.

I can't believe the negative turn that this thread has taken.

Kobi, to quote you, yes, the following is correct:

>>>snip<<<

"A lesbian by definition is a female homosexual aka same sex.

A gay man, by definition is a male homosexual aka same sex.

A bisexual, by definition is someone who sleeps with both sexes.

A heterosexual, by definition pertains to opposite sexes.

These are not my definitions, they are the definitions of sexual orientation."

The following, according to my own perception and knowledge is also correct:

1. This website is not a strictly lesbian website. Some of the admins may be but it has always been stressed that it is open to everyone on the continuum of identity and sexuality.

2. I did not know that when I arrived here. I was surprised. I had thought it was a butch femme lesbian site.

3. I quickly realized that how I did lesbian was not the same as everyone else's and if I did not like it or did not feel comfortable here: I could simply move on.

4. I decided to learn, to grow, to work on being less judgmental and rigid in my thinking.

5. I do not think that it is homophobic for any LGBTQ person to identify themselves however they see fit and for whatever may feel comfortable.

6. I am a lesbian. I only date, fall in love with and have sex with female-identified butch lesbians. I will always jump in when I feel lesbians are being attacked, put down or if lesbiphobia is going on.

Example, I read the following sentence and did not like it at all: "I have found that lesbians are the most judgmental in accepting of all lgbtq".

It is those kind of generalizing statements that push my buttons. It would be as though I would say, "I find that trans folk are the most judgmental...".

Let's not lump all people in one pile please! Some lesbians are judgmental. Some trans folk are judgmental. Some people, in general are judgmental.

Have folks given thought to how some lesbians may be feeling? Especially older lesbians? As a group, in the LGBTQ, community, we may have become more inclusive and our circle has widened, but as a lesbian, there are fewer female-butch lesbians than there used to be.

Many butch lesbians find, through the process of finding their real, true self, that they want to transition. That is good for them but as a lesbian, sexually and emotionally attracted to female-identified butches: I have a sense of loss. A loss of another lesbian. That is not transphobia. That is reality. One can take that personally or one can gain a little understanding of where some lesbians may be coming from. I say some because I can't speak for all lesbians!

None of us can speak for others. Perhaps we can offer some different perspectives and hopefully, we are willing to be open-minded enough to learn and grow from it.

I hope that in the same way, we need to understand the journey of a trans person and be able to put ourselves in those shoes; that trans folk can also understand where some lesbians may be coming from.

I think that as a community, we will self-destruct if we do not accept each other. I do not feel that anyone, anywhere gets to identify someone else. We just do not have that right.

Yes, there are scientific definitions of every sexuality and identity but as human beings, we get to define ourselves. We get to decide how open and accepting we are.

I define lesbian my way.

I fought hard to do that and no one gets to tell me I am wrong.

No one.

I remember the old site... I'm not trying to disrespect anyone on here but for someone to make it seem like peoe who aren't cut and dry just lesbians is disrespectful in itself.ty Dapper foe your input..

I agree...I find the "We must adhere and keep to lesbian ideas of purity" to be repugnant since I did not fit into what they considered "lesbian" when I first came out. I was shunned within the lesbian community because I did not "fit" their ideas about what being lesbian was. Seriously, fuck those kinds of social constructs.

Glad so me one else gets it... I was born different and I wont let anyone define who or what I am.. people need to band together not drawn lines in the sand... if the l gbtq community dont support each other then We will continue to struggle to be equal in the eyes of the world and with each other

First no one said do by be proud too be a woman.. I said don't make your views the ma factory view.. I never said anything about your political views either so don't k ow where that is coming from.. it seems to Me someone mistreated you so now you don't like that which you were seen as.. that's not My fault it's societies fault... I ha e had to use the male bathroom since I was 15 do to no doing of Myh own do I k ow very well about the struggles and bei g called faggot and Dyke and freak... Mobil you do you bud I am done with this thread as it is called ask trans anything and no. Trans are in here mucking it up.. have a good weekend and try to let that chip on your shoulder go.. I am not the enemy.. narrow mindedness is

Folks:


We have had some reported posts in the last couple of days so let me clarify a few things so that we can keep this discussion moving:

1. This is a queer site, not just a lesbian site, and most certainly not just a site for Butches and Femmes.

2. The Butch and Femme Community has always consisted of people who identify in all different kinds of ways. That is not always comfortable for other people but we need to be focusing on how we identify within ourselves and not policing how other people identify.

3. Who you fuck does not determine how you can identify. That is a patriarchal notion that often subjugates women and gay men based on who gets penetrated, and obviously that's bullshit.

4. Gender is fluid, unless it isn't for you. Identity is contextual, unless it isn't for you. Your Feminism may adjust based on your experiences, unless it doesn't. Bottom line, how you do you is your business and how other people do them is their business. That doesn't mean we don't question bad behavior or call out sexism, but when it comes to personal identity politics maybe we can put more energy into listening to each other and less energy into telling each other who you must be based on my own narrative.


Also? It is super problematic to have folks who don't identify as Trans in a Trans thread telling Trans people about their lives as much as it is having folks who don't identify as Lesbian in a Lesbian thread telling Lesbians about their lives. Let's be conscious of one another's space, ok?


Thanks,
Angie

Sorry about that. I shouldn't have tied it to your post.

Ok then!!
 

So, who has a question they want to ask a trans person? :deepthoughts: Welcome to the site, Esme! Sorry, it got all wonky.

(Chuckle) you've no need to apologise to me, m'dear!

I do have a question, actually. Did anyone else - MTF or FTM - initially go for the societal stereotype of how they perceived their correct gender to present, then over time find that that's maybe not the best fit for who they are?

Absolutely... I wore the dresses and makeup and tried to be a "WOMAN" but because of My CHA I just excepted that I have no gender genetically so now I am male identified and happy as I am..

Hey Dapper!
Thanks for your thoughts.
Unfortunately, when I was going through the surgery with my ex, I was naïve at best. I supported him fully with his transition, but honestly had no idea what I was really getting involved with. I wish we would have seen a therapist!!!! I guess the point was that I was overwhelmed by the responsibility of his care after surgery :)

As far as my other questions, I am talking about a Trans man dating any female. (straight or gay) I have had this conversation with trans men and several felt that it was their right to not disclose transitioning. So, in essence their date is blind to the whole story... what if it goes further???? what if they end up making out???? Is that fair? Or is the date an ass because when they get to that point of making out, she is not ok with either the fact he is trans or the fact that he wasn't honest???

Hope that cleared it up :)

The anger expressed earlier with identity issues is exactly what I was talking about in my earlier post. These are the responses I got when I dated a trans man. I cannot speak for others, but it is hurtful and closed minded and makes me feel quite uncomfortable.

Oh I wasn't apologizing for what I wrote one bit. I was apologizing to JDEERE for hijacking that post. I should have just replied without the quote.

Hi, there. No, my "way of being", male is not out of sync with the other males in my social group/area I live in. I have always been masculine. I am not around any tobacco chewing, crotch grabbing guys which IS a place where I would stand out like a sore thumb.

I know what you are talking about though. Some trans people feel pressure to "fit" that super feminine or super masculine ideal. They worry about "fitting in " for a number of reasons....for example, some trans women might feel they need to fit society's definition of female because they want to prove to themselves they are "real women", or they feel a need to prove to cis folks that they are "real women", or feel a need to "prove" it to other trans women. So they feel they have to be super feminine, exactly what society expects, etc. It is horrid. I think it is more horrid for trans women than for the trans men. And when trans men try to go all super macho (in a way that isn't natural for them), it just makes me chuckle.

I have heard this more than once though. I not super masculine trans guy, or a not so super feminine trans woman, go to the extreme to fit in...eventually they say fuck it! and just become themselves.

What has it been like for you? Seeing that you identify as "tomboy", I assume that means you aren't super girly. Has that been rough? When you first transitioned, did you feel like you had to start out super girly? Were you worried that the UK wouldn't pay for your surgery if you didn't fit the narrative?


I never watched the Transformers. I was too old by the time they came out.
They were cars that changed into robots/super heros/monsters, right? So they were what and you wanted them to turn into what? And the what was then you?

And you pulled a turkey bone on it? That is serious desire dude, you're right.

I've had the same wish at every b-day cake, shooting star, time the clock say 11:11, since I was 16. So, like yeah, I win like everything.

This is what I thought you were asking. I will clarify it here... you are asking us trans people if we think that trans men who are socially transitioned and live as men (who are assumed to be cis male), should "come OUT" to their potential dating partners?

That is a very sticky difficult discussion to have. Some trans people are extremely passionate about it, on either side of the debate.

The thinking is that if we tell people that if they are trans they should tell a potential date, we are saying that we don't see them as to who they really are. They are not saying they are men. The thought is well, do we expect men with erectile dysfunction to say that going in? Do you expect someone who had an accident and don't have a "normal penis" to share that prior to the first date? No, we don't. So, why should we expect ourselves to do that?

Me, I tend to say it is up to the trans person. I also haven't been in the situation where I wanted to date someone who didn't already know I was trans. For me, personally, if I did a personal ad I would put it in there. I don't want the hassle of dating someone only to learn that are only open to dating a man who has a natal penis.

Great question to discuss on this thread.

Um, by 'correct' I meant the gender one identifies as, DaddyChrisCo - so in my case female. I dived happily into skirt-suited office worker/disco-dolly for an evening out. Over time I've drifted toward jeans-and tank-tops being my normal attire, only occasionally do I wear skirts now.

Heh. Whilst even back then I was aware that the societal expectation for womens apeparance was a tad more femme than I felt internally, it didn't feel too far off, and I was entirely happy to do the skirt-suit/disco dolly thing. And back then, I associated tomboyism more with childhood and a certain kind of practical-mindedness in adult women. And yes - absolutely I loved that the world finally saw me as one of the girls, which is what I should've been from the start. I know that some going through the system at the time had such worries, and definitely did present as conventional femme in order to obtain surgery, but I was quite happy presenting so, it was what I wanted to be like, back then. It didn't occurr to me back then that that mightve been due to external pressure rather than innate.

This last couple of years have been quite odd for me as well as very happy ones. I'd been wearing my Steampunk plain Edwardian-style skirt-suits at work for a few years, and not unhappy about that specifically (I didnt have anything else I could sensibly wear, and I'm quite pragmatic. Wouldve loved more variety in my wardrobe - I love clothes, but - finances :-( )), but I knew I was in a rut and creeping back into my shell socially - and headed to a bad place mentally if I didnt do something about it.

Roller derby entering my life was a huge game-changer. Not only socially being around a lot of strong minded women determined to do their thing and heck what anyone thought about it (and utterly accepting of me), but the weight I lost in my efforts to get fitter meant my skirt-suits now fell off me. Jeans and cheap tank tops were the quick solution.

Woah. BIG sudden change, and at first it felt uncomfortable, and I did worry a tad that I might be 'read' more often as being MTF in jeans and T-shirt, but after a while it became the new normal, the world didn't end, straight men still annoyingly make passes at me, and I realised that I was feeling pretty comfortable with this image, actually, it better reflected my personality - femme, but with a practical edge, and not always too worried about the niceties or things being just so. It also fit well with my being part of several 'alternative' social scenes (Goth, Steampunk, roller derby), somehow.

Nowadays I feel more one of the laddish girls that can do classic femme when she wants to - and does, but not often, and am quite happy thus. I was startled my first couple of times on the lesbian scene when both times someone presumed I was butch. No idea why, I didnt get chance to ask, but I suspect it was because I wasnt in skirts and court shoes, and then there's my sheer size - I'm a big lass. I mentioned this to my boss the other week and she laughed and said 'you're definitely not butch, you're too feminine!' and friends have concurred. Awkward, me... :-}

Thank you for writing all of this. I appreciate you sharing your history.

As I said before, I am glad that you are here. I would love to have the opportunity to discuss living in the world as a trans person, with other trans people, on this site.

Do you find that trans women are supported in most lesbian specific spaces in your area (both your area specifically, and the UK, in general)? I don't know if you can say this based on your own experience, but I am curious. I would say that in general, trans women are less accepted in all female, lesbian defined spaces in the U.S., than not. It was much worse many years ago, and I like to think that it is getting better, but that might only be happening in the larger cities. All of the trans women I work with who go to lesbian specific spaces say they have not found acceptance. I am in a more liberal state, as well. 98% of my state voted for Clinton.

Knowing you transitioned many years ago, and in the UK is super interesting to me. I have a number of trans guy friends in the UK online, who I met through a UK bottom surgery FB group. I find the UK system of transition interesting as it is so different from ours. Of course, you all have had support (your country pays for your transitions), for eons.

Hey Dapper,

I agree this is s sticky subject. From the folks I have spoken to about it, well, let's just say it can be a passionate response on either side. Your response made me think and I will take some time to think on it before I comment any further. (as far as others revealing things about themselves) thanks for your point of view :)

I'm happy to discuss that, Dapper, either here or elsewhere if it needs a different thread.

As for trans women being supported in lesbian-specific places in the UK, first a caveat - I am not on social media, I'm a refusenik. There almost certainly will be stuff 'out there' that I am not aware of. One of the things I've just been venting about is the fact that here I am in the UK's second largest city, and there is one lesbian-focused bar (and it's tiny) and two places where lesbians are often found, so far as I'm aware of at this point. And there are NO women-only nights in any of them. I'm guessing that locally women connect online first so there's less of the going to somehwere to find a date thing going on.

The twice I have been on the scene that ther'es actually been wall-to-wall women in our lesbian-centric bar, I felt no edge from anybody at all. I would say utter general social acceptance. Of course, that's not the same as saying that they'd all be happy to bed me, but then, I wouldn't have wanted to bed all of them, either. We all have our preferences :-}

At LFest - which has a firm no discrimination policy - much the same. Indeed, although I fluffed the situations through dithering due to introversion and nervousness, I did get some positive interest from a couple of lasses, which was a bit of a surprise to me. Being effectively a babydyke, introvert and recovering from years of self-policing due to fear of rejection as female, I told myself beforehand to not get my hopes up, and be realistic with my expectations. Seems my expectations were too low!

Contrast this with nearly thirty years back in my much smaller original hometown, and the utter rejection I got by the local lesbian support group. No-one was off with me at the local gay/lesbian disco when I attended, but the women barely interacted with me at all, although one did shamefacedly say 'we do think you're pretty though' as if that were a consolation prize. Well gee thanks, but having to deal with being lesbian on top of being MTF and telling me I'm pretty but cold-shouldering me.. yeah. Worst and most hurtful discrimination I've ever experienced. Heterosexual society actually proved to be way more accepting. That incident made me actually scared to go near the lesbian scene again for fear of similar rejection, hence my finally coming to the scene very late in life. I'm happy to say much has changed for the better!

I blame Janice Raymond 's nasty piece of supposedly feminist work for that, though. (I've had to self-censor there - I get a severe attack of the swearies every time I think of her infamous book on transfolk). Those women were in a tough situation at a tough time, and I was one more potential worry, I saw that even at the time. It was the fact that they wouldnt even negotiate some form of compromise that shocked me.

Nearly forgot - the women in the lesbian walking group I'm in - absolutely fine with me.

As for the rest of the UK - well, I've no experience there, and no information other than a few snippets I picked up from chatting at LFest whcih gave me the impression that it's much the same around the country. Sure, there'll be the odd bigot here and there, but in general we're accepted as part of the community, such as it is. Hmmn.. one caveat - it can depend on the individual. I've just recalled that one bunch I chatted with said they'd encountered a couple of transwomen that, from the descriptions of their behaviour given me, I suspect were either poorly socialised as women or just plain boorish in personality anyway. They were sent packing, eventually. I have noticed that some MTFs seem to think that their way of being a woman is THE way, and come on, we're all girls together, this is how to do it - and it sounds incredibly fake, and is in any case, rude, especially when you're the newcomer to a group.

For the ftms...How do yall get into your binder. Do you step into it or over the head. My last binder had Velcro and wasn't very good but am getting a new one and am wondering the safest and best way to get into it.

I don’t wear one regularly but the times I have it’s always been over the head. Can’t say I haven’t almost dislocated a shoulder a time or two lol (usually taking it off) but yeah.

It is whatever works best for you. There really isn't a "safest" or best way. I haven't heard guys talk about stepping into them in years. I suspect that was the older brands. I never understood how that really worked though. I always did it over the head.

Did you end up ordering a gc2b? I had top surgery prior to these coming out, but I am pretty sure all guys just pull them over their heads.

The most important thing about binders is to get the correct size, based on your measurements. That is where "safety" comes into it.

I hope this binder works well for you.

Gah, you just gave me a total flashback....I felt the pain I would feel when taking that thing off.

I can't believe I wore a binder, daily, for 15 (?) years.

Thanks yall. I am ordering the binder soon. I took the measurements and spoke with a customer service person and we know the correct size for me. I hope it works for me too.

What brand and style did you get?

What brand and style did you get?

I wore the Underworks tri top for years.

G2b in the short style kind of amazed at the fit and how it made me feel inside empowering. I did the underworks on first but not a good fit and I had issues with getting cyst that the doc thinks might be related. Really had I not been so idk shy about it I should have asked for advise in the first place

I am getting mine from the g2b website. Its the tank binder. Since im a big guy they recommended the tank instead of the half.

I think ive seen some of yall post about thin hair or no, i dont really remember. I have think hair way up front on my hairline, some missing due to stress, do yall think that a pompadour would be a good cut or go with a fade type cut?

There are so many things that go into the right hair style. The texture of your hair, the growth pattern, etc. The best thing to do is to go to a quality, higher end hair salon and ask their opinion. Let them do "their thing", and just deal with the cost. If you want a male cut, make sure you tell them that. Even if you are butch, if they know you are female, they will "soften", any style that you might suggest to them.

After that, take yourself to a cheaper place 3-4 weeks later and have the stylist "follow the line". Then keep going to that person.

Good luck.

I went to a barber, skipped the whole salon deal. My new place for a haircut fyi. My barber happens to be a stud, which to my delight we talked about femmes the whole time. Anyways I ended up with a ruby rose type hair cut no softening of anything lol.

http://media4.popsugar-assets.com/fi...k-Season-4.jpg

A place with a stud was a good idea. Female and males skulls are shaped differently. A female who desires to look masculine is a good choice for picking out a hairstyle for you that makes you look the most male (if that is what you are going for). Back in the day trans men would get a crew cut/something along those lines, as soon as they came out. All that does is highlight the skull which points to the person being female. There is enough information out there now that you don't see that much anymore.

I have found a good Barber and the cut I think is much better before my daughter was fussing at me that my fade had not been done right now she and I are both happy and I do not have to worry about the the being softened thing

I think it was a good choice too.