oh please....

You come up on in here and start saying how we take your jobs, and how Americans are suffering from job loss due to Latinos and you want to call me presumptuous and racist..

All my people were wet backs Kobi, all of them, I am too.

So don't tell me how we take your jobs, we do jobs American's don't wanna get up off their asses and do including raising their children

[Corkey,

I hear what you are saying. I could respond in kind i.e. saying people are undocumented rather than illegal is just a marketing ploy to take legal immigration out of the picture and make ilegal immigration more palatable.

And, illegals or undocumented workers do not only take "menial jobs". I have worked with many who are doing office type work and quite proud to tell me how they came here on a visitors visa or a student visa with no intention of ever leaving.

The media hype works both ways. You can say I listen to the wrong media but then again what makes yours the correct one?

It is all in the eyes of the beholder. None of us know the "truth". And to espouse one truth is more right than another is wrong.

We are a country of immigrants. My grandparents were immigrants. Tho they came in legally and put up with waiting lists and quotas and racism.

I may not agree with your take on things but I respect your right to feel differently. And, I dont have the need to be rude or belittling about it. It doesnt make either of us right or wrong. It just means we see it differently.

Wow. Thats how a respectful conversation evolves.



QUOTE=Corkey;139717]Kobi, sincerely, there is no such thing as an illegal person. Undocumented certainly, but illegal, no. The knee jerk reaction as you call it is that you have voiced what FUAX news wants to be repeated, it isn't news and it isn't correct. White americans will not do the jobs that undocumented immeragrents do, that is a fact. Please I grew up in a very Latino rich county. All the farm workers were paid a below minimum wage, the farm owners can't afford to pay them more, because we don't pay the farmer a decent dollar for the produce we consume. It is an economic nightmare that these undocumented face. Human rights for all, or none of us have them.[/QUOTE]

i'd like to donate a week long vacation to el salvador, guatamala, bolivia, and mexico (resort towns not applicable) to the next person who comes in here and bitches about the audacity of those sneaking across the border.

You know, you never can really know until you walk a mile in somebody elses shoes....

Can you explain how the expression "knee jerk" applies to this conversation? The people posting here have done their homework, they've researched the facts, and some of them have lived the topic. If having compassion makes us bleeding hearts, so be it. That's so very preferable to being heartless.
Migrant workers are a backbone of our economy. Businesses hire them and pay them less because those workers have no protection. They can be subjected to harsh conditions and underpaid (or not paid at all), while the business can either keep prices down or pocket the additional money that they're not paying in wages and benefits and for safe working conditions. If you're bothered by immigrant workers, you should be talking to your representatives about cracking down on the businesses that hire them.

Americans do real labor and lots of it; backbreaking gutwretching labor. The businesses that are allowed to get away with it are the problem. Do you think for one minute that the greedy heartless bastard that owns the deadly WV coal mines wouldn't hire migrant workers for less pay if he thought that he could get away with it?
Those folks are probably doing the work under the table, not paying taxes on their earnings and illegally subsidizing their unemployment benefits. If they get sick, they're likely using the emergency room for health care, since unemployment benefits aren't enough to pay COBRA. Are you angry that these people aren't paying in to the system while they are using expensive medical services, or is it okay since they're, you know, white and all.

I also gotta point out how racist your comment is. You see "more Americans"? I think you mean "more folks who's skin ain't brown". You can't tell from driving by a work site who is and isn't an American. You'd be the kind of person who would assume that the guy doing my yard work is "illegal" because he's brown. Wrong. He's got a blue passport.
What does the work done by medical residency students have to do with the conversation.?
We're all still eagerly awaiting your injection of facts in to the conversation.

That's the thing right there Corkey, you said it, this fucking law *targets* a particular kind of people..

Let's be honest, they are not going to pull the irish undocumented worker are they?

No they are gonna go for the brown one, who looks like one of them kinds that take American jobs..

Yessiree buddy

*spits* Redman out

Some thoughts about the cost of "illegal immigrants" (undocumented workers is more accurate): http://cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html <-- this study indicates both the extra $$$ the undocumented workers bring in as well as areas where they take more. I think what was interesting was this:

I can certainly see the benefit of not becoming documented. To say that they should return home and put efforts there, I do not think that's realistic. In my last work related visit to Mexico City (Santa Fe to be specific), I saw a billboard -- by one of the local cartels -- advertising work with full benefits (including education for kids). The reality is that the country -- from what I saw and read in the local english papers (not sure how accurate they were) -- or at least the gov't continues a fairly corrupt and the only solution would be civil war. This could mean a whole family being killed. Compare this to coming to the US where the worst is deportation and/or jail.

I dunno. I can see why it's more appealing to come here. Additionally, CIS does point out that when the first "settlers" (read: illegal immigrants) landed in the US there was no gov't and any gov't was rather small and localized. If the gov't was like what exists today back then, I can bet that many wouldn't be allowed to stay.





I don't know if removing the undocumented would resolve the work scenario. Many of the jobs that are maintained/held by undocumented workers are below minimum wage, have no benefits and are difficult. It's not to say that a US citizen wouldn't be able to do to the work, I can bet that the company wouldn't last long without someone suing them for their wages being too low, which in turn, would likely cause it to close.

Quote:

Companies can use H2 visas and get workers here legally to do "scut work". One does not have to resort to illegal people..

Umm.. My company is applying for an H1-B for me. They got me an L1-B previously. That one cost the company $20K. I have no idea how much it will cost to get the H1-B (and eventual green card) but the reality is that it's not as cheap or easy to get those visas. Additionally, it will force companies to pay -- at minimum -- minimum wage. For some, this would defeat the benefit of having a worker from the South (which seems to be the most concern -- few seemed concerned "aboot" all them Canadians staying here).

I think it's myopic for any nation to say that the solution to everything is to "kick out the illegals!". That will not resolve issues and will actually make things worse.



You can read the full CIS study here: http://www.cis.org/node/54

So lemme get this straight...

I have an issue???

With since you know me so well???

Cause I thought we were discussing, debating, having a heated discussion on how *you* brought up the facts we take your jobs...

Am I wrong?

Notice the brown loud girl who does not speak proper sentences gets told she has *issues*

Yes.

She has an issue. It's her brown skin genius. :detective:

The H-2 Visa is for temporary and seasonal workers: http://www.usvisa.com/h-2_visa.shtml

I believe it was designed to allow and make it easier for Mexican (I believe it was targeted as part of NAFTA) workers to do seasonal farm work, I believe the costs associated with getting it are too hire for farms to get. Additionally, since it's a one-time only, it's not a truly viable visa.

Yes, yet AGAIN the brown loud girl is dismissed under the guise of having issues.

I really think that poster needs to read the TOS and maybe back away from the racist statements they are making.

As a Latina, and a member and a HUMAN it is hurtful. It is divisive. It is also uninformed and untrue.

Linus, I was responding to:
Companies can use H2 visas and get workers here legally to do "scut work".
"Scut work" is the trivial crap that medical students have to do. I figure that if one is going to put out slang expressions in quotes, one should know what the quoted expression means.

Ah. I wasn't aware it was specific to medical. I thought it just meant: "trivial, unrewarding, tedious, dirty, and disagreeable chores"

Oh you mean those jobs those people take from American's right?

:|

Check out scutwork.com ;)

Again, just because you dont like my views, does not give you the right to be disagreeable.

Nor does disagreeing with you have anything to do with racism. It doesnt matter if you are brown, black, yellow, white or purple. There are laws in this country about immigration for a reason. To decide arbitrarily that one will circumvent those laws because it suits one does not make it acceptable. Just as it would not be acceptable to say murder is ok. You cannot pick and choose which laws you adhere to.

But then again, it is easier to just pull out the race card and feed on emotions than it is to deal with the people deliberately and willfully breaking the law.

H2 workers have nothing to do with medical residency students. H2 workers here in my area are supermarket workers, hotel workers, laborers etc. And thats a fact.

Just because I see things differently doesnt mean I am not uneducated or ill informed. Again, that is liberal rhetoric to divert attention from the matter at hand by knitpicking every detail for which there is evidence for both points of view. But then again, it serves your purpose to claim superior knowledge without having a clue about what my history or experience might be. Self serving I guess.

And that is what a knee jerk liberal is. Saying you have the only truth and your views, being more compassionate must be right, and you must quell anyone who dares to speak a different truth because it doesnt fit the program.

One can have compassion and also be reasonable and logical. But, again, it doesnt fit the liberal agenda to have such people speak out.