|
the law in AZ is unconstitutional. that means it affects us all. it is the chipping away of our rights little by little.
at the end of the day, i feel safer knowing who doesn't like my people than having them hide in the shadows. wink wink. |
Last time I checked no laws were being passed to target and single out the purple people of Crayola land...
A law DID PASS targeting one specific type of looking kind of peoples... It's not irish undocumented workers It's not the Canadian undocumented workers It's not the Russian undocumented workers It's those pesky gosh darn latinos, who keep crossing over taking all those Wall Street jobs and sending their kids to those gosh darn Ivy League Schools.. All my people, (who do not identify with the purple people who DON'T EXIST) are wet backs, I am, my kids are first generation Americanos... I was an undocumented problem for this country taking your jobs till the age of 13 when I got my green card... I am still taking your jobs. Now you tell me why the fuck I get to have a big target on my fucking back? I bet I know more about your History than you (general btw). So you see this isn't a liberal knee jerk reaction, YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHAT WE GO THROUGH.. HOW WE HIDE... HOW SCARED WE GROW UP... So yeah |
Quote:
So I just thanked your post for you being the second person to tell me on this site that I am using my race card Congratfuckinglations I did not realize speaking about my experience was me throwing my fucking race like it's a god damn Pokemon Card...... |
Kobi, you've made lots of attack statements, but have yet to provide thoughtful arguments. Is there any chance that you'll quit spewing hate and rage and tossing around red herring sound bites and instead start engaging in productive discourse, or shall we just move on without you?
|
it's a circular conversation at this point.
|
|
Perhaps I was a little hasty and made an assumption. I'll restate. My question is in regards to this comment:
Funny, how our economy is in the tank and I see more Americans doing landscaping and general labor work this year then ever. Would you please tell us exactly how you know that the people doing these jobs are Americans? |
Quote:
Do you read credible and accredited economist, one who happens to have a Nobel Price in his home, state the fact that immigration, documented or undocumented actually helps the US economy? And it helps US economy and those good ole US entrepreneurs to pay undocumented workers less. It allows those business owners to get more profits and pay less taxes. yay for them! As a MEMBER of this community I am going to kindly ask you to stop using the term "illegal immigrant", it is racist and insulting. I suppose you are not a "knee Jerk Liberal", another term I see you throw around in an attempt to incite and insult. If you want to have a civil, intelligent, informed conversation, then do so. But I don't see you doing this right now. And no, it is not because you disagree with me, it is because of the way you throw racist terms around as if you had every right. Your privilege, and so much more, is showing. |
I like this kid. A lot.
|
How losing undocumented workers is working out for AZ so far....
|
Please Join!
I am Mexican Pull Me Over (The OFFICIAL Sticker) Vamos Mexico!!! Our dignity and pride will not be beaten; we are Aztec warriors and will continue to march ahead and fight the fight against bigotry and ignorance!! Viva Mexico!! http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...5915155?ref=ts http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos..._3861868_s.jpg |
Kobi:
You say kudos to the Arizona law. Okay. I think you continue to miss the problem that a lot of us have with the Arizona law so I will take a crack at explaining to you. The text of the law was amended from reading "may not solely consider race..." to reading "may not consider race". The reality is that the people here who are citizens and whose genetics run back some 9000 years in the area now called Arizona are genetically identical to the population living 10 miles south of the border. In other words, they will look exactly alike. The practical upshot of this is that if the only thing a law enforcement officer needs is 'reasonable suspicion' that the person is not a citizen and the two populations look precisely alike, the real-world affect is that citizens will be stopped unreasonably. I am against this law because while the words 'may not consider...' are nice and an improvement over "may not solely consider", it is still an invitation to racial profiling. This country has a history of racial profiling and that history isn't ancient history. Now, of course, one might make the argument that Sven from Sweden and Mary Katherine from Ireland also have much to fear from this law. The reality is that no one is going to pull Sven and MK over and ask to see their license because of how they look. It is entirely reasonable, given this nation's recent history, that Javier and Rosa have reason to worry that they will be pulled over even though their genes are from the L.A. basin and have been there since long before anyone remotely from the lands of Sven or MK even knew this continent existed. I would love to say I live in an America where American citizens who happen to not be white need not worry about racial profiling. I would even be happy with an America where no non-white person need worry about it because it had been so long since those ideas had any real force in our society that no one alive can even remember when they did. Unfortunately, I don't live in that America. No one is saying we shouldn't deal with immigration issues, least of all me. I think that the way immigration is being dealt with is, at its best, misguided and wrong and, at its worst, dangerous and playing with fire given this country's recent history. If this immigration law struck fear into the very heart of every employer in Arizona such that they wouldn't dream of not verifying the citizenship status of a person before hiring them, I would be okay with that. If the law imposed penalties that were draconian on businesses that hired workers who were not citizens, that would be okay. But that's not what this law does. Tossing a sop to the idea that businesses should verify, the main thrust of this law is targeting individuals. A guest-worker program would be a sane start. But we don't want that. Then there's the issue of 'they're taking our jobs and eating up all the welfare'. I am a member of the last group of Americans who were taking all the good jobs, sucking up all the welfare and, while we were at it, running vast criminal enterprises selling drugs. In other words, I'm black. In the seventies it was us who were the problem. As manufacturing jobs were sent overseas--which really started in the late-sixties/early-seventies--blacks were also being given larger access to employment. Affirmative action, in this instance, was the reason why whites couldn't get jobs because all the jobs were going to 'the blacks to meet the quota'. At the same time, we were sucking up all the welfare because, apparently, we didn't want to work. So while we were simultaneously taking jobs that we were not qualified for and proudly telling our white colleagues that we weren't qualified for the job and were getting over on whitey (a popular story at the time) we were also sucking up all the social services, proudly telling OTHER white people (possibly the ones who couldn't get jobs) that we were going to pop out yet another baby so we could increase the welfare payments and, you guessed it, stick it to whitey. Then as if we weren't busy enough taking every good job in sight and simultaneously draining the public coffers with our indolent ways, we decided to take up the drug trade. So now, we were spending our workdays at jobs we weren't qualified for, would hit up the welfare office on the way home driving our 'welfare Cadillac' and then have an evening of selling drugs and engaging in some light drive-by shooting. Any of this ringing any bells circa 1971 - 1995 or so? Now, it's the turn of Hispanics. You notice the same rhetoric (taking our jobs, sucking up social services, turning otherwise bucolic American cities into Fallujah)? Now, was it true that black Americans were simultaneously doing ALL of those things? No. But the rhetoric sounds very similar so you'll forgive me if I'm a tiny bit skeptical that this law is as race-neutral as you would have us believe it is. Lastly, to the larger issue of immigration. I think that this country would do itself a favor if, for a generation, it simply closed the border. No one. From anywhere. For any reason other than political asylum. The reason why is that it would then allow us to deracialize the discussion. Right now, it is entirely reasonable--given this nation's track record--to presume that the problem is not that there are large numbers of immigrants it is who those immigrants are. I suspect that now (not 100 years ago but now), Irish or Scottish or Danish or English immigrants could come across in such numbers that if they all stood on the Atlantic you could walk from New York to Wales without getting your feet wet. I suspect that we would hear moving and poetic paeans to how immigration is the strength of America and how our ancestors braved this and that to come here and these new people who we are just so happy to have amongst us show, once again, that America is a beacon to the world. However, if people are coming from south of the border in any kind of significant numbers then it's not so much with the poetry and more with the invective. Suddenly, the paeans to immigration become more pro forma and less feeling. Do I know, for a certainty, that I'm correct about that? No. But my take on it is *entirely* reasonable given American history as lived JUST by people I have met personally (covering people born between 1903 and now). None of the people I'm thinking of are alive, but none of them shuffled off this mortal coil more than a quarter century ago so we are not talking ancient history. Actually, one last thing. Your point regarding what 'those people could do if they put their energies to work in changing the conditions in their own countries'. This statement shows a kind of geopolitical naivete that, quite honestly, I'm rather surprised at with you, Kobi. I figured that you were savvy enough to know that American corporations have a *disproportionate* amount of sway south of the border. I also figured you knew that the America is the 800 lb gorilla of the hemisphere. Just things that this nation has done in the last 50 years have had large impact on the lives of 'those people'. 1954 -- US Government, because the democratically elected president of Nicaragua instituted inconvenient (for an American fruit company), land reforms engineers a coup d' etat. The CIA replaces the rightfully elected leader with a puppet who then goes on to eliminate democracy and impose the death penalty on strikers. This strongman, Carlos Castillo Armas, rules Nicaragua for 30 years. 1960 -- Government of El Salvador falls. New ruling junta promises new elections. American president, not liking where this might go, orders the state department not to recognize the new government. It falls three months later to a right-wing government which is recognized. 1960 -- Guatemalan military attempt to stage a coup. It is put down by the local government. However, US military warships with 2000 Marines on alert take up station off the coast to lend support if needed. 1961 -- Bay of Pigs. 'nuff said. 1961 -- CIA backed coup overthrows government of Ecuador 1964 -- CIA overthrows government of Brazil 1973 -- US backs military overthrow of Salvedor Allende in Chile bringing to power Augusto Pinochet. 'nuff said. 1973 -- US backs military coup in Uruguay 1980 -- Right-wing junta takes power (again) in El Salvador backed by US 1981 -- US government backs the contras in Nicaragua to overthrow the left-leaning government using Honduras as a base. I could go on but I won't belabor the point. So are you going to tell me that nations that, just a generation ago, were playing host-nation to American Great Game machinations and CIA dirty tricks would be in much better shape if only people who are leaving those areas for various reasons--most of them very, very good--would just stay home? And when they elect another government and that government talks to Cuba or that government has the audacity to suggest that the rich ALSO should pay taxes, what do you think that the US will do? Sit idly by or go with what has proven to work time and time again? If you believe that US foreign policy would NOT follow the historical pattern I have just one phrase for you: Hamas is the legitimately elected government of Palestine and the US government refuses to deal directly with it. Quote:
|
Quote:
Kobi, you have every right to your opinion on all of this. I differ, many others do as well. I really do believe you are not getting factual information, however, about immigrant (both legal/undocumented/illegal) workers. Also, those on the student visa's etc. are here doing a job totally within the law. If they believe they will be able to stay in the US in light of what is going on, they are mistaken. There will be immigration reform. My hope is that this reform stops how these workers are treated here. The bigotry against Latin populations in the US is sickening. Also, just making the kinds of assumptions you are about a person working here under a visa and wanting to stay is bothersome. Why someone that is better employed (than what is available from their home country), getting an education and, oh.. paying taxes as a immigrant with a visa (it is a legal status, thus reports for income are made to the IRS and and state taxing agency necessary), wreaks of racism to me. Why are you even talking about such people in this discussion? Frankly, folks with an education job skills seem like people I want here! I hope the visa process leads to citizenship for them! I like you, Kobi, but I am having a problem with this. Just have to disagree, I guess. But, I hope you will begin research on the fact that it is whites that are the largest population of welfare in the United States, bar none! Not, non-whites or immigrants (illegal or otherwise). And all poor people without health insurance are using our public health care funding! I don't mind this, either. Health care is a right, not a privilege as far as I'm concerned and when people are not able to have things like communicable diseases treated... it becomes a health risk for all. This very same thing happens all around the world. Why do you think traveling persons need to get certain shots? I am not blind to there being less and less funding available for social services, education, etc. But I do not buy that this is due to illegal immigrants. Stop and take a look at how funding is done in this country as a matter of politics. |
I think if politicians were really serious about fighting undocumented workers? That they'd have super harsh laws for the businesses and individuals that hire them.
Especially in the construction/manufacturing industries, where jobs would NOT get done w/o these workers. Why you might ask? Because the employer who hires them has no responsibility. No workers comp, no insurance, a worker can lose a limb and they are quickly replaced. No compensation happens. It's a basic supply and demand issue. It seems far more logical to go after the sources of demand than the supply showing up to meet that demand. |
First Arizona passes a law that specifically targets a group of people..
THEN Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer has signed a bill targeting a school district's ethnic studies program. http://www.cleveland.com/nation/inde...s_law_tar.html I ask you sincerely Kobi, where you think this is not only about immigration, this is a blatant attack on a group of people... It looks like to me from this angle that Brewer is all about whitening up her state.... Pretty shitty next thing she will want to put homos in lil camps... Law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. -Martin Luther King, Jr. |
Have you all read Texas' new GOP Platform?
http://www.theocracywatch.org/texas_gop.htm Scary times my friends. Scary times. TX also wants to rid it's state of what it calls "multiculturalism". Meaning that the material taught in school is designed to depict WHITE Judeo Christian Americans. |
dread,
Thank you. Your argument is one I can listen to. I can see the potential pitfalls in such legislation and why people would be upset about it. Nonetheless, immigration reform needs to start somewhere and if the feds wont tackle the issue, the affected states have to develop their own plans. Maybe Arizona isnt the best standard but it is a starting place to develop something workable. I have not said anything about immigrants and social services. Without proper documentation people are not able to get benefits of any kind at least in this state. So nothing was said about anyone sucking up welfare services. Health services are used by those without insurance which then ends up costing taxpayers more to cover the expenses. Educational services averaging over 12,000 per year per student adds up countrywide and again falls on taxpayers. Perhaps people used to come here "to take our jobs". Now we export them....its cheaper to do so. From my labor union days, I can tell you that companies tried to placate workers by suggesting a two tier system of payments and benefits.....one for veterans and one for newbies. It was a ploy to cut expenses and wages with the workers backing. It was a terrible labor problem and we are seeing the fallout of such thinking these days. Auto workers making less than half what they are used to just to have jobs or these jobs will go overseas as well. This is not an immigration problem per se, it is an economic strategy problem fueled by workers willing to take less which lowers the standard of living for most people in the long run especially in an economic downturn. And it is not just laborers. Financial institutions are looking to hire folks from Japan and China who are willing to work for less in corporate offices. The science industries are looking for foreign workers who are better suited to their businesses due to foreign emphasis on math and science skills as well as economics. I had to chuckle at your political history of the our effects on other countries. It's kind of ironic how we can do so many bad things to peoples respective homelands but people still want to flock to this country. Strange thing irony. As for people staying in their own countries and fighting for change.....we have done it here. The civil rights/gay rights movements meant conflict and hardship and death but it lead to changes. It is amazing what people can accomplish when they band together. And we were fighting an economic machine and the cia as well. It is not geopolitical niavete. It is a belief in how people who band together can force change to occur in spite of the economic machine and the cia. Otherwise we are all just pawns in a game, tossed about as others see fit. I refuse to believe any humans are that powerless as a whole. I know immigration policy is a complex issue with strong emotional overtones. I just dont adhere to rhethoric on either side of the coin. Because for every argument, there is always another explanation, interpretation, point of view and study to support views one way or another. What made and makes this country great is the diverse points of view. |
Quote:
Quote:
link: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/lev/16/21-22#21 from reference.com: scapegoat Quote:
(below) that guy on the right is pearce, the one on the left is locally known neo-nazi, JT ready. http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bas...andRussell.jpg JT Ready at a Nazi rally: (2nd from right) http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bastard/jt5.jpg Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
i can have compassion for people and still think they're ignorant, intolerant racists: i see more people pro SB1070 and pro a ban on ethnic studies (which you don't even mention) as a vehicle to further their racist agenda--these aren't people that were "against" racism in any way, prior to the bill--they're just now able to pretend that they hate brown people because they're "illegal" and they're now able to thinly veil their racism behind a totally fascist law that once-again targets brown people. (read: racists have been empowered by this law which totally sucks. and by racists in arizona i mean gun-carrying, no license-requiring guns allowed in bars, RACISTS.) |
Kobi, you aren't getting it, it is UN Constitutional. The federal government is the only entity that has the authority to make and enforce immigration reform. It is not a states right. What this law did was to usurp federal law, it won't pass muster. Please go back and read the bill of rights and the rest of the amendments, I do believe it is the 14th amendment.
|
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:35 AM. |
ButchFemmePlanet.com
All information copyright of BFP 2018